Rossi vs. Stoner (not a troll thread, promise...)

[WVMotoGP99]

Miller/Crutchlow



I reckon when they got on the drink it would be serious party time

Damn.. I bet you are spot on. I imagine Crutch would be a blast, but also bet he spills ever 3rd beer.

 

[JPSLotus]

So his 5 'ships in a row means nothing? Don't recall Casey doing that? (I know he had special tires and everyone else was riding ten speeds blind folded, etc.. etc..)

Not a Rossi bopper by any means, (and not a Stoner Boner either), but also not going to take away a person achievement because how I personally feel about him, even thou I do think he is possibly a huge mega ....... (But, I also bet out of all the riders he is the most fun to drink a beer with.)

Is Rossi THE GOAT of all times? The GOATness of all GOATs? That is easily debatable, and in my opinion probably not. But, at the end of the day, I would bet in most opinions on this forum, GP fans across the globe and GP writers in general would put him closer to that GOAT point than Stoner.

Some of that is due to Stoner hanging it up boots so early. That was Stoners choice and more power to him. He had every right and if that made his life better, made him happy, I am glad for him, but by doing so, he pretty much took himself out of consideration of top GOAT on the GOAT pyramid.

Of course.. One mans opinion, so you always have that.

Arrab had a nice write-up about the Honda period a few weeks back, you should read it. It's interesting. Sure no one can take Rossi's titles away, but he had some insane advantages. Kind of hard to be challenged when the field is locked out before the lights ever go out. I have never thought as highly of those 5 as some here do, and I never will.

Not at all, I apologise I missed your post. However perhaps I should add the disclaimer that these are simply my own opinions and observations albeit derived from established facts as best as I recall them. Further, I really don't think that I'm offering any real revelations or insight here - it's simply how I saw it at the time. Although, in 2002 I distinctly remember some very interesting observations from those that inherited 'Rossi spec' machinery. Read on...

I believe my use of the word farcical was directed at the 2002 and 2003 titles as opposed to the machinery itself and contend that relatively speaking, the mighty 5 cylinder RCV211 was the probably the most immediately complete prototype race machine ever built by HRC. As opposed to the two stroke era, correct me if I'm wrong, but engines arrived sealed from the factory, they were run until their service life expired and were largely maintenance free obviously not requiring the rebuild intervals of their two stroke counterparts. Although by todays standards the electronics were primitive, they represented a sea change in race preparation and set up. Gone was the fine art of tuning, performance was now tweaked by pre-set software adjustments - in the case of HRC these stole a march on the other factories and were well understood and with a higher level of sophistication. Also bear in mind that with although pre fly by wire? with the predictable throttle response and the broader torque curves and granted, monstrous power, the 990s initially exacted less demand on chassis and tyres whilst set up was less challenging than the 500s - (although I would argue that the excessive horsepower was to become an issue). Hitherto, it may have taken four or five hours to arrive at a base setting for the NSR, not to mention finely fettling the finicky two stroke chassis and suspension in harmony with a circuit and the prevailing conditions - the four strokes were far less labour intensive. I recall Brent Stephens commenting in retrospect that you could race the V5 out of the crate and previously being accustomed to the high maintenance NSR, they used to play around with the settings of the RCV simply for want of something to do. So the advantages of the V5 in terms of rideability and conservation of time and resources were instant and indisputable. I do however remember Rossi saying that the new bike were much easier to ride fast but due to its innate neutrality, was much harder to effect change unlike the temperamental but sensitive highly strung two strokes, where if you got it right, you could instantly find a second and a half out of nowhere.

Also of note was that the 500cc projects were purely the preserve of HRC, whereas, the RCV project was the result of collaboration between the racing wing and central R&D of the Honda Corporation which meant that from the off, they chose to integrate the new bike into the factory structure - presumably to accord with marketing strategy and product planning and as far as I am aware, was something that had never been done before. Initially the look of the RCV was mirrored by the blade, but the future plan was to introduce an actual road going version (what an emasculated lump the 1000cc proddy Honda eventually turned out to be. This may have compromised the sharpness of the bike in contrast to the 500, but massively raised the stakes in budget and support and also produced an amenable package which was highly user friendly albeit lacking the more acute parameters of adjustment of the two stroke.

The other huge development in 2002 was the second generation 16.5 inch tyre. In previous posts I've mentioned Rossi's insistence that he should also have the 'McCoy' spec but crucially in his defence he understood why the lab rat was able to exploit such a bespoke and idiosyncratic tyre and how to use it himself. The rest of the paddock following suit, struggled - not least in durability and management..but we'll come to that. The new S4 suited both two stokes and four strokes but as I recall, quickly Michelin produced special tyre concessions for the heavier more powerful four strokes together with dual compound tyres which were not availed to the two stokes. Remember also that the woefully inadequate GSV began its life as a dunlop shod bike. In my opinion Suzuki had never recovered from the complacency of winning the title in 2000 and the lack of development left them severely hampered up until their recent hiatus. Eventually switching to Bridgestone, unlike Ducati who took a step backwards to go forwards, they attempted to engineer the tyres to the bike instead of the other way around. The introduction of Bridgestone was fascinating, didn't McWilliams brilliantly get a pole and VDG also park the KR Proton on the front row at PI? Very indicative of what was to come.

So Honda were first off the blocks in 2002 - the investment had been massive, the resources huge and the smaller marques Yamaha, Aprilia, Suzuki and the later entrance of Kawasaki floundered in comparison. Perhaps most significantly, the non factory field consisted of the irrelevant and defunct 500cc - in the hands of some very capable riders, but on a hiding to nothing. In fairness, no one really knew how the new four strokes would fair against their two-stroke counterparts. I know for a fact that in spite of formidable test results, a fully functioning 2001 NSR was to hand should the V5 have lost races. The FIM later conceded that the 990cc ceiling was a precautionary measure in the event of this scenario and that the displacement perhaps excessively over compensated for this eventuality. They had no need for concern...the two stokes were hopelessly outclassed and basically annihilated. An inglorious slaughter and a humiliating undignified and ignominious end to a golden age. There was one race - just one, where it seemed that their nimble handling may prevail. Sachsenring was at that time traditionally a Yamaha circuit. The slick quick turning of the YZR completely gelled with the tricky and tight characteristics of the circuit. Barros and OJ lead the race from Rossi, who undoubtably had much in hand, but the lithe two strokes had streaked away from the pursuing V5 behemoth - unable to fully flex its muscle. Perhaps Rossi was poised to pounce upon his prey? Going into turn one several laps from the end, Barros, usually a genius on the brakes missed his marker, trail braked too deep, and took out the Yam of Jacque. We will never know - but clearly Honda would not have wanted a museum piece beating their new fangled showpiece.

The purpose of this discussion is to set the scene. Rossi rode that motorcycle on merit - he was there through talent alone and still had to prove himself on the 500cc bike. I have already debated the circumstances of this with J4n0 and maintain that the Burgess/Rossi alliance was a forged by HRC with the intention of inheriting the RCV211 project and that even in 2001 the advantages in machinery and tyres were massive. Initially, there were two factory seats available. the second could have gone to Criville. In the event 2000 was a disaster and test mule Tohru Ukawa was lined up for the ride - even he himself winning a race at only his second outing. The record books show a second premier class title for Rossi...but read beyond that, remove the yellow tinted glasses and you have the most lop sided inequitable fields in the history of this sport. Even the appreciable advantages in machinery associated with Sheene's 76 title or Ago's domination through his association with the Count in the late sixties do not compare. It was all too easy and if you were there watching at the time, not only was the racing largely tedious, dull and processional, it was a foregone conclusion. Even the most ardent Rossi aficionado would be hard pressed to argue otherwise. The title was sewn up by round 12 - Rio. Yet the growing throng of glory hunters, seemingly either grossly ignorant of the sport or wholly in denial of the absurd advantages of being on the four stroke factory Honda in addition to the fact that half the competition was effectively eliminated before a wheel was so much turned in anger seemed to revel in the domination.

Even Honda's emerging great white hope, the mercurial Diajiro Kato was saddled with testing obligations at Gresini until the new parts quickly dried up. On the plus side, Honda Pons inherited Rossi's 2001 championship NSR. This next bit I remember vividly and I thought it was very significant coming from Rossi's best mate in racing. Loris Capirossi simply said, 'now I can see why Rossi won last year' - Not like me to embolden text for the purposes of sensationalism..but I thought that it was so telling at the time. Barros also said words to the effect that the Rossi spec bike in comparison the satellite equipment of 2001 allowed them to use one grade softer tyre for race distance!! ONE GRADE SOFTER TYRE FOR RACE DISTANCE...ffs. Think about that if ever you watch back the again ludicrously one sided 2001 season. Small wonder that Max always insisted that on a Michelin shod factory NSR he would do the same as Rossi and more. Actually I seriously doubt that, but although I believe that the 2001 title was brilliantly ridden, to the unblinkered objective neutral at the time, the advantages nonetheless manifest. 2002 on the other hand was a formality -a cakewalk. Max did stick in some valiant rides on the flawed M1 - which rumbled and popped delightfully on the overrun like a distant salvo of artillery. I remember he was always quick at Brno, but Rossi's tyre delaminated as I recall - perhaps that's what ushered in the upgrade for the 4 strokes, not sure. Kato was rewarded with a V5 - immediately securing a fourth I think, (I dunno BJ.C it or Wiki it). But much to the chagrin of Loris then Barros got one which he basically rode around the car park at Motegi before smoking Rossi in the race. He did the same at Valencia. Nonetheless, the record books tell us Valentino Rossi, World Champion - eleven wins and 330 odd points.

Which brings me to 2003...a far more interesting season but one which was marred for most of us by the tragic, freak and untimely death of Kato at Suzuka. Admirably, having inherited the factory ride, Telefonica contracted, non HRC Gresini rider Sete won at Welkom in tribute. Gibernau given parity, put in some great rides that year...memorably at LeMans and Sachsenring - both last corner moves on Rossi. After Italy, the notoriously fickle Italian press turned on and mauled Rossi. I clearly remember his reaction and look on his face in Parc Ferme after he was beaten by Sete, gone were the smiles, the joking, the shows of respect - the mask seriously slipped. It was here at that moment I believe that the relationship soured, not the 2005 sweeping incident at Losail - although revealingly Vale told the press at the time that he had been looking for a reason to fall out with Sete for a long time - and of course that Sete Gibernau would never win another race in MotoGP, which he didn't - although I'm not about to speculate on the many reasons as to why. At Sachsenring in 2003, it was clear that Rossi had a rival, that had made him look second best on 'his bike' - (even though Honda, much to Rossi's frustration, regarded its success as theirs) - and competition on equal terms wasn't in the script.

Valentino demured on his contract. The possibility of an outrageous move to Yamaha had resulted in a clandestine meeting with Brivio after dark at Donington whereby Vale actually stole into the Yamaha and sat on a factory M1. Brilliant stuff. As if this wasn't distraction enough, he also had the allure of F1 and the test at Ferrari. Honda, were certainly cognisant of the approaches from Yamaha long before Motegi where the move became a reality between the two parties. Not long after Doni, they had quickly learnt of the machinations behind the scenes and were anxious to retain him. However the dispute over image rights and the enduring ethos at HRC that the bike makes the rider as opposed to the reverse further alienated Rossi. That much is well documented...far more contentious was the later view of Fausto Gresini that Honda, mindful of the PR/marketing disaster associated with a defection to Yamaha, offered increased support to Rossi, curtailing the resources to Gibernau in a bid to retain Vales services. You decide. After the summer break, Vale won six of the remaining seven races...Sete won none - and in typical Sete 'Give up now' fashion began the first murmurings of a lack of support from Honda and a preference to their factory man.

Jeeez - is that the time? So much more to write about 2003.

The RCV211 was an intricate and integrated design. As Mike recently reminded us. the overall philosophy was to centralise the mass around a compact three forward two back configuration. The under seat tank was a hugely important aspect and the V5 was the first of its kind in motorcycle racing. I'm fairly certain that the 2002 bike was a 75 degree motor whereas the 2003 machine was even more compact an engine with a smaller degree vee angle (where's Krop or Lex when you need 'em?). Although HRC denied the use of TC, the bike did have a similar rudimentary three lever position mapping which had evolved from the NSR. With a similar twin spar chassis, unlike the two stroke predecessor, the RCV had a greater degree of lateral flex than the 500 but with more torsional rigidity. In short, like I say, it raced out of the box and despite the huge advantages it commanded over the rest of the field, those ongoing consignments of parts throughout 2002 and 2003 had Rossi's name on them together with the tyre containers shipped from Clermont Ferrand. I would have loved to have seen Kato's season unfold. His potential was immeasurable. Given Valentino's ailing relationship with Honda and given the similarly indomitable machine that he would have evolved beneath the arguably similarly talented Kato - himself an HRC prodigy, taking nothing away from Sete, but I strongly suspect that the 2003 title may have been engineered and steered in the direction of Japan instead of Italy.

 

[WVMotoGP99]

Arrab had a nice write-up about the Honda period a few weeks back, you should read it. It's interesting. Sure no one can take Rossi's titles away, but he had some insane advantages. Kind of hard to be challenged when the field is locked out before the lights ever go out. I have never thought as highly of those 5 as some here do, and I never will.

Read it.. Nice. I have not researched all the "recalls" or "remember" but, okay, I am sure it is how he remembers it.

Basically reminds me of the folks that say Richard Petty isn't the King because of the years he drove that monster ugly dodge that just crushed the field in those years. Or those folks the hate on Mark Maguire because of his growth hormone ..... Or Adam Scott winner the Masters or was it the PGA Championship with that granny putter.

None of it illegal. Just part of game/sport. And none of them got there because of their looks (maybe Scott). Like it or not, they all earned it.

 

[WVMotoGP99]

Read it.. Nice. I have not researched all the "recalls" or "remember" but, okay, I am sure it is how he remembers it.

Basically reminds me of the folks that say Richard Petty isn't the King because of the years he drove that monster ugly dodge that just crushed the field in those years. Or those folks the hate on Mark Maguire because of his growth hormone ..... Or Adam Scott winner the Masters or was it the PGA Championship with that granny putter.

None of it illegal. Just part of game/sport. And none of them got there because of their looks (maybe Scott). Like it or not, they all earned it.

Hell, or last year in F1? Should Hamilton throw is 'ship in the trash because the only car that was going to win the F1 title last year was going to be a Mercedes. I believe it is going to be the same this year.

How many title did Michael S win because Ferrari was head and shoulders faster than any other car?

 

[JPSLotus]

Read it.. Nice. I have not researched all the "recalls" or "remember" but, okay, I am sure it is how he remembers it.

Basically reminds me of the folks that say Richard Petty isn't the King because of the years he drove that monster ugly dodge that just crushed the field in those years. Or those folks the hate on Mark Maguire because of his growth hormone ..... Or Adam Scott winner the Masters or was it the PGA Championship with that granny putter.

None of it illegal. Just part of game/sport. And none of them got there because of their looks (maybe Scott). Like it or not, they all earned it.

Actually steroids were put on the MLB banned substance list in 1991 by then commissioner Fay Vincent. So you're wrong there.

Second, you're engaging in apples to oranges comparisons.

Try again.

 

[WVMotoGP99]

Actually steroids were put on the MLB banned substance list in 1991 by then commissioner Fay Vincent. So you're wrong there.



Second, you're engaging in apples to oranges comparisons.



Try again.

Mark never took steroids, (so he says) he said he took that other HG something or another, which was not banned by baseball at the time. And I was never in the locker room, so can't call him him a liar.

"In a 1998 article by Associated Press writer Steve Wilstein, McGwire confessed to taking androstenedione,[27] an over-the-counter muscle enhancement product that had already been banned by the World Anti-Doping Agency, the NFL, and the IOC. At the time, however, use of the substance was not prohibited by Major League Baseball and it was not federally classified as an anabolic steroid in the United States until 2004."

No.. My try was 100% spot on. You just don't agree. Two totally different things.

 

[JPSLotus]

Hell, or last year in F1? Should Hamilton throw is 'ship in the trash because the only car that was going to win the F1 title last year was going to be a Mercedes. I believe it is going to be the same this year.

How many title did Michael S win because Ferrari was head and shoulders faster than any other car?

Oh I'm glad you brought up Michael Schumacher. While you might think only Ferrari, you have to go back to his early career as well.

A guy who cheated his way to one world championship by crashing into another driver in a last ditch effort to prevent the title from slipping away. He managed to bend Damon Hill's steering arms at Adelaide 1994 resulting in a double DNF at Adelaide 1994, which handed him the title. That's also to say nothing of the illegal software that was hidden on the Benetton B194 which comprised of traction control and launch control hidden away....remember the team was being run by a guy who was convicted of fraud, and the other being Cheating Tom Walkinshaw who never participated in a race series he couldn't cheat his way to victory in.

Schumacher holds the distinction of being the only driver ever kicked out of the Formula 1 World Championship for trying to reenact his Adelaide 1994 move on Jacques Villeneuve at the 1997 season finale in Jerez. He didn't have the pace to stay in front of JV, and when JV decided to overtake him, Schumacher turned into him in a last ditch effort to prevent himself from losing the title. The move was so blatant, much like Rossi's Sepang move, so the FIA President --S&M practitioner Max Mosley who enjoyed engaging in Holocaust themed orgies with prostitutes, and grew up with parents who were friends with none other than Adolf Hitler, and who also happened to have a proclivity for all things German-- had no choice but to kick Schumacher out of the world championship. His 1997 results were excluded altogether from the history books.

However, Max being a lover of Germany and all of it's sordid history was keen to have a German world champion driving a Ferrari since it meant big business for F1 and he was already planning illicit deals with his buddy from the March Engineering days, one Bernie Ecclestone. Ferrari hadn't seen a driver of theirs win the world title since Jody Scheckter in 1979, and they were keen to see things change. Might have happened in 1999 were it not for the Silverstone accident that broke Schumacher's leg. But when he returned at Malaysia 1999, the Ferrari's of he and Eddie Irvine were running illegal barge boards that magically escaped scrutineering checks. Of course, one can't forget the ban in 2001 of exotic materials in engines, which was really about removing the Mercedes V10 advantage due to the use of beryllium in their engines they were supplying to McLaren. Beryllium is noted for it's elastic properties in metal, and this enabled them to pull more power out of the V10 engines. The setback meant the Mercedes V10's were now putting out power that was closer to early 1998 levels. A significant disadvantage, and that was the end for Mika Hakkinen and McLaren. Schumacher had bagged the title in 2000, 2001 and 2002 were an absolute joke. The FIA did tons to alter the rules to favor Ferrari over those years, there's a reason it became known as Ferrari International Assistance. Michelin tire design was forced to be changed, which never happened to Bridgestone who was supplying Ferrari. The Indy 2005 farce was another where Ferrari only had a race victory in 2005 because no allowance would be given to Michelin for their tire issues. In 2006 when it was obvious Fernando Alonso was going to be a strong contender for the title, Renault found their mass dampers banned in mid-season so as to try and get a closer title battle. Fortunately Ferrari and Schumacher didn't win. Endless other things.

Point is, Schumacher was a ....... fraudulent piece of .... and one of the dirtiest drivers I ever watched in my life. The only title of his I rate as being normal was his 1995 championship in the Benetton-Renault. Williams had so many reliability issues and Damon Hill was inconsistent the entire year. Schumacher drove very well that year....outside of his ........ at Spa when he ran Damon Hill off the circuit at the end of the Kemmel Straight.

Schumacher enjoyed a ton of ........ advantages that were only afforded to him and his team...much like Rossi.

 

[JPSLotus]

Mark never took steroids, (so he says) he said he took that other HG something or another, which was not banned by baseball at the time. And I was never in the locker room, so can't call him him a liar.

"In a 1998 article by Associated Press writer Steve Wilstein, McGwire confessed to taking androstenedione,[27] an over-the-counter muscle enhancement product that had already been banned by the World Anti-Doping Agency, the NFL, and the IOC. At the time, however, use of the substance was not prohibited by Major League Baseball and it was not federally classified as an anabolic steroid in the United States until 2004."

No.. My try was 100% spot on. You just don't agree. Two totally different things.

McGwire opens up about steroid use | MLB.com

Bolded the admission for you.

"I did it [for] health purposes," McGwire told Costas. "If you look at my career, injured '93, '94, '95, '96, I was a walking M*A*S*H unit. I told my dad yesterday when I finally had to tell him about this. I remember calling him in '96. I was so frustrated with injuries, I wanted to retire. He's the one who told me to stick it out. At that time I was using steroids thinking it was going to help me. It was brought to my attention that it was going to help me heal faster, make my body feel back to normal."

So that would be 0% spot on.

Try again.

 

[povol]

I don't care what you decide to call Stoner, but he s the most sublime motorcycle racer I have ever seen. Right now, the difference between the Honda and Yamaha is about the same as the difference between the Yamaha and Ducati in 2007. If Marquez can win the title on this years bike against Lorenzo and Rossi on superior machinery, he will move into Stoner territory .

 

[Jumkie]

Or those folks the hate on Mark Maguire because of his growth hormone .....

I like Mark Maguire. I'm a Dodger fan, and have met the guy working as a hitting coach. Nice dude.

Brother, I keep reading your posts where you seem to say, yeah you get the concept of unfair advantages, then say....but you're not taking away anything from title gained in this way. This is quite confusing to me bro. I'm either reading what you're saying wrong or you are actually saying you accept achievements "won" when the playing field was rigged because....it's in the record book so there.

Again, using the Mark Maguire analogy, he has hit home runs while on the juice. You're ok with looking at the baseball almanac and pointing out, well it's right there in print, see, he was one of the greatest homerun hitters? Likewise, you're ok with looking at the GP almanac and say, yeah, I know VR (or maybe you don't actually believe) won on juiced tires, but you're ok with it because...he "won"?

Edit: oh, just read your other post, so I see that McGuire's juicing is debatable, ok. Seems like the debatable part is the technical legality of it. So if it's "legal" you're ok with it. Am I understanding you right? So if unfair advantages are allowed by the 'rules', that is, are "legal" it's ok, the titles won this way are acceptable?

It reminds me of the Roman Emporer who took a liking to battling gladiators. He was "undefeated". Imagine that.

 

[#22]

So many examples of Rossi the coward.

It goes to show you how most people glory hunt towards results without meaning. They think by association of the record it somehow reflects on them, the irony being, it does.

That's my new signature, I love that Jums, thanks.

This sums up why I quit racing. People want to win at all costs rather than race. I really don't know why even at club level racing I did recently, they just don't go out and buy an expensive trophy one weekend a month and say "See, I won". ....... just spending ridiculous amounts of money in the name of "Getting the best of their equipment" just to take home a £2 trophy.

Blocking Casey from riding at Yamaha for 2006 is exactly why Rossi can NEVER be considered better or a GOAT.

Agreed, as I've said before. You didn't see Senna veto'ing team mates which is why he is the greatest for me.

Hell, or last year in F1? Should Hamilton throw is 'ship in the trash because the only car that was going to win the F1 title last year was going to be a Mercedes. I believe it is going to be the same this year.

How many title did Michael S win because Ferrari was head and shoulders faster than any other car?

He shouldnt throw it in the trash, of course. But it certainly doesn't hold the value of say Vettel's 2010 title that saw anyone of 4 drivers with a chance of winning it at the last race.

My thoughts regarding Schumacher have mostly been covered by JPS. He, like Rossi, folded in every championship showdown he was in (1994, 1997, 1998) and only ever won when we had a considerable advantage bar 1995.

As has been said before, I'll never forgive Schumacher for a number of things, mostly as I posted on another thread here once that his dirty driving tactics filtered down into junior karting that I was just starting in around the mid 90's. Kids would push you off the track and simply respond with "Well Schumacher does it" when questioned by the stewards.

As JPS also said, he completely cheated his way to the 1994 title and in a small way he and his team contributed to Senna's death. Senna knew they were cheating, running illegal forms of traction control and was driving like a lunatic to beat him/them. Coming from a driver who once came into the pits complaining about an issue with his Ford engine, which when inspected was found to have 1 cam lobe profile slightly off when measured (not visible to the eye), if he said he detected oddities with Schumachers car, then unquestionably there was something untowards happening. Remember Senna was a guy with a reputation for an extreme sensitivity to engine characteristics.

It's easy to rack up wins and championships when the odds are stacked in your favour. I could go to the local arrive & drive karting centre and wipe the floor with everyone there, but most of them have probably never driven a kart before, so wheres the fun in that?

I don't care what you decide to call Stoner, but he s the most sublime motorcycle racer I have ever seen. Right now, the difference between the Honda and Yamaha is about the same as the difference between the Yamaha and Ducati in 2007. If Marquez can win the title on this years bike against Lorenzo and Rossi on superior machinery, he will move into Stoner territory .

As I have said before, Stoner to me is the rider with the most raw speed I have ever seen. If you stuck him on a moped he'd be a contender. He can just ride the wheels off anything he steps on.

 

[BarryMachine]

Wins on a Ducati:

rossi ................0

Stoner ...........bucketloads

 

[danski]

The ultimate decision on Yamaha's 2006 line-up rests with racing director Lin Jarvis, the man who successfully led negotiations for Rossi's move from Honda during 2003.

It is not yet known how many Yamahas will be in MotoGP next season, with rumours surrounding a new one man Rossi team and the possible termination of Yamaha support for the satellite Tech 3 outfit.

How on earth does this make VR a coward??? CE was contracted thru 2006 as his teammate, unknown whether tech3 would be in or out, so there's basically 2 seats on offer but they are both taken! You guys will take any tiny chance to read what you want into situations of years gone by in order to make your point about Rossi seem like it was real.

 

[Barbedwirebikerr]

The ultimate decision on Yamaha's 2006 line-up rests with racing director Lin Jarvis, the man who successfully led negotiations for Rossi's move from Honda during 2003.

It is not yet known how many Yamahas will be in MotoGP next season, with rumours surrounding a new one man Rossi team and the possible termination of Yamaha support for the satellite Tech 3 outfit.

How on earth does this make VR a coward??? CE was contracted thru 2006 as his teammate, unknown whether tech3 would be in or out, so there's basically 2 seats on offer but they are both taken! You guys will take any tiny chance to read what you want into situations of years gone by in order to make your point about Rossi seem like it was real.

Yamaha, or any factory team will not enter a championship with a 1 rider team. Preposterous.

 

[#22]

The ultimate decision on Yamaha's 2006 line-up rests with racing director Lin Jarvis, the man who successfully led negotiations for Rossi's move from Honda during 2003.

It is not yet known how many Yamahas will be in MotoGP next season, with rumours surrounding a new one man Rossi team and the possible termination of Yamaha support for the satellite Tech 3 outfit.

How on earth does this make VR a coward??? CE was contracted thru 2006 as his teammate, unknown whether tech3 would be in or out, so there's basically 2 seats on offer but they are both taken! You guys will take any tiny chance to read what you want into situations of years gone by in order to make your point about Rossi seem like it was real.

I believe Rossi is quoted somewhere as having said he didn't want Stoner as a team mate. And even if he didn't, it would be extremely likely given that it is on record that he tried to veto Lorenzo being signed.

EDIT: Found it:

http://www.speedzilla.com/forums/street-track/24140-rossi-burgess-say-no-stoner-yamaha-move-2.html

 

[danski]

I believe Rossi is quoted somewhere as having said he didn't want Stoner as a team mate. And even if he didn't, it would be extremely likely given that it is on record that he tried to veto Lorenzo being signed.

EDIT: Found it:

Rossi/Burgess say no to Stoner/Yamaha move - Page 2 - Speedzilla Motorcycle Message Forums

You found a post that comes from a guy who would fit right in on here, I very much doubt there is any credible evidence out there apart from the well worn hearsay that is used so much to discredit one of the worlds finest riders. Granted he brought a lot of it on himself with the events of late last year but to bring previous years into it is just pitchforks and broomsticks mentality!!

 

[#22]

Believe what you want to believe. But it was widely known that Rossi didn't want Stoner to ride for Yamaha. Hence he is a coward in my book.

You didn't see Lorenzo veto'ing his return, nor Stoner vetoing any team mates at Ducati or Honda. That is a fact.

 

[Gaz]

You found a post that comes from a guy who would fit right in on here, I very much doubt there is any credible evidence out there apart from the well worn hearsay that is used so much to discredit one of the worlds finest riders. Granted he brought a lot of it on himself with the events of late last year but to bring previous years into it is just pitchforks and broomsticks mentality!!

The link is actually http://www.eurosport.com/motorcycling/american-gp/2006/sport_sto927692.shtml but it is dead although in one place this is said to be some of the text of the article

MotoGP rookie Casey Stoner suffered a double blow during last weekend's German Grand Prix. Not only was the 20-year old advised not to race following a high-speed crash in the pre-race warm-up but race winner Valentino Rossi has also moved to block the Australian joining the Yamaha team.Stoner, who was linked to a move to the factory Yamaha team at the end of last season before joining up with Lucio Cecchinello on a Honda, has again been muted as a possible team-mate to Rossi next season under the wishes of chief engineer Jeremy Burgess.However, despite showing flashes of brilliance this season and the temperament necessary to become a multiple race winner, Valentino Rossi has taken it upon himself to block the move, saying that the Australia would be best served at Honda."I think the best option for Stoner would be to stay where he is," Rossi said at the Sachsenring.
Rossi has already signed a one-year extension that will take him to the end of the 2007 season, but the position of team-mate Colin Edwards is less straightforward. Despite having a good rapport with the Doctor, Yamaha and Michelin, the Texan Tornado risks losing his seat after a relatively poor season to date.

His position could be saved should he and Yamaha's World Superbike rider Noryuki Haga beat Honda to victory on this year's Suzuka Eight-Hour on July 30th. Honda are putting huge resources into this year's race and a victory for Edwards aboard the impressive R1 would be timely.
Meanwhile, Stoner's woes continued when he was advised not to race in Sunday's German Grand Prix after crashing in warm-up. MotoGP doctor Costa and Rubbini suspected a concussion and was therefore admitted to hospital. However, while tests produced no trace of concussion, local doctors ordered him not to race.
"I made a small mistake in the warm-up and crashed, but there was absolutely no problem with me - physically or mentally - I was capable of racing," he said. "I was cleared by the scans, and it is very disappointing the circuit doctor would not allow me to race.
"I really feel that I had very strong chance of scoring points after a very positive practice on the updated chassis which HRC supplied to the team," he added. "It's frustrating and all I can do now is try and regroup for Laguna Seca next week."


FWIW DaniBoy, it isn't just speedzilla that have used the above article but many sites ran with it - that does not make it accurate or true, but then, nor do graphs make an accusation correct

It is also commonly accepted due to numerous reports that there had been 'suggestions' or 'veto' from the Rossi side of the garage but the reasons have varied between VR wanting to look after Edwards who was essentially the lapdog through to VR not wanting a competitive team mate. I also seem to recall that JB was said to have played a part in the veto which may be partially borne out by the degradation in the relationship between JB and CS, but at the time all of this occurred, a member of the right side of the Yamaha garage did not do a .... without approval (VR was in control freak mode but is said to have lessened that a bit). Make of it what you will, but as they say, where there is smoke.

 

[danski]

It doesn't make him a coward though does it, NO Moto GP rider is cowardly.

 

[Gaz]

It doesn't make him a coward though does it, NO Moto GP rider is cowardly.

Agreed but I suspect the term coward is being used in an off track sense - but I still do not agree.

All of these guys and ..... are brave as are the officials - stand beside a track when a bike comes past within a few feet at near 300kmh and tell me it aint frightening, exciting, terrifying and ....... awesome at the same time ........... it is!