Rossi v Stoner: On the Ducati

Mackie said:

Primarily I'm an observer of the sport and a fan of all of them. I find that the bias that exists in some outweighs any ability to be logical, not saying that my opinion is fact, but facts brought up in my opinion are indeed that. The constant

detraction of Rossi primarily here, and on some other sites, is primarily rubbish and this needs to be pointed out. I would be doing the same if it were Jorge, Dani, Ben and of course Casey.







Obviously you were hoping to piss on the Rossi fans that seem to be an incredible annoyance to you, so much so that you are inventing views for people like myself, as you did reply to me.







Which points do you feel aren't correct? Lets just work with the above then, do you feel that Casey made his own luck during his hide-side in Germany and through talent managed to prevent any serious injury to himself? Unlike Rossi's highside last season

where he ran out of talent, or like Dani's injury this season, where he and Marco Simoncelli ran out of talent together? Or Like Jorge's crash in 2008 which broke his ankles? In all of these instances the riders missed several rounds and therefore their ability to

compete for the championship. Admit it, Casey has been lucky when crashing.



Or the point about machinery, Do you feel that if Casey were on say, the Yamaha or the Ducati again, or the Suzuki, that his riding prowess would overcome all obstacles and he would still be leading the world championship?

My point is he has brought consistency and speed to the Honda camp, moreso than any of the current 'Honda' riders however the bike has improved since last season and is the best machine in the paddock at present.



And I'm sure you'll have no problems with my other point, which involves Casey's talent, but I'm sure this isn't the one you were referencing above.









At no point have I mentioned anything about Stoner or Rossi being equals or not, so I don't know what you are talking about here, once again you are so paranoid you seem to be inventing things.

And at no point did I insinuate that Pedrosa would be beating Stoner if it was not for his injuries, at the time I was stating that Dani was faster currently at Brno (before the race) and that his style seemed

to be suiting the Honda better at that particular point in time last weekend, as Dani was consistently over half a second quicker. If Dani was not injured this season who knows how he would go. The fact of the matter is

Dani has beaten Stoner this season, and Stoner has beaten Dani more. One of them has been injured seriously twice. Who knows what would have happened.



The fact is that the 2011 Honda has provided an advantage to Stoner, he is the only one using it properly and is therefore the best of the Honda riders, and the field. Just as the 2002 Honda provided an

advantage to Rossi, who was able to best use it, just as the 2010 M1 was for Jorge and he was the one who was able to best use, just as the 2007 Ducati was for Stoner and he was the one who was best able to use it it and so on.

The rider needs the right equipment, you do not walk all over this field without the right bike.







I'm not saying that his success is less meritorious than it appears at all, your paranoia is clouding your judgement, Credit must be given where credit is due, and my argument was and is with overly bias Stoner Fans not

accepting the fact that others are also contributing to these wins. Just as others have always contributed to anyones wins in the history of the sport.

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michaelm said:

If you want both barrels I'll go with it.



"I am a stoner fan, but the more I read here the less I like his supporters", apart from implying problems with self esteem/self loathing if you want to get psychiatric (which I would suggest might not necessarily be a good tactic) ...







Your pedrosa argument is also imo a less blatant example of a logical fallacy which I for want of a better word might call the talpa fallacy. Bereft of legitimate avenues to discredit stoner, hypothetical ones are invented, and responders accused of bias if they disagree or question the validity of the tactic. As pete bass said with much more wit than me, as is his wont, things might also be different if the beatles hadn't broken up or mike hailwood was (physically as well as metaphysically) immortal. An injury free dani pedrosa may well have contested more closely for titles. If he was a martian with superpowers he may have as well. Unfortunately the second is not much more hypothetical than the first, and stoner can do no more than beat the dani pedrosa who actually turns up on the grid to race him.

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michaelm said:

If you want both barrels I'll go with it.



"I am a stoner fan, but the more I read here the less I like his supporters", apart from implying problems with self esteem/self loathing if you want to get psychiatric (which I would suggest might not necessarily be a good tactic) since you apparently are a stoner fan and did not qualify your reference to his supporters with "some of", would in some circles be considered a provocative statement, and it is to this I primarily responded. Your argument that stoner fans require you to worship him seems to be based on disagreement with your quibbles about the role of bike advantages, and luck with injuries as opposed to dani pedrosa, this year (correct me if I am wrong) .



I have a consistent position on all this which I have kept to in my over 5000 posts on this forum, which I am not suggesting you read as most if not all are fairly boring. If you wish to observe this implies a certain obsessiveness of character, feel free, and I was even in my youth accused of being overly wedded to Aristotlean logic. Stoner's championship in 2007 being attributed by many purely to his bike as opposed to every other rider who has taken in the vicinity of 10 race wins in the course of winning a championship really annoyed me. In view of this I was at pains to not repeat the behaviour which so annoyed me and gave rossi full credit for his very meritorious 2008 and 2009 championship wins, but I now see no reason to accept any quibbling on the basis of bike advantages this year, something which I entirely expected btw, particularly since most of what was said about the 2007 ducati has now been proven incorrect. You may have been an inadvertent victim of my past history on this forum, but again I don't see why bike advantages have to be mentioned very early in any discussion concerning stoner but not other riders. Since you are making the negative case the burden of proof, imo and conventionally, is on you.



In terms of this year's honda it is obviously a good bike, but every bike that has won a championship has been a championship capable bike, QED. Simoncelli can match stoner's pace on it for a lap or two but almost invariably crashes if he tries to do this consistently, and dani crashed when falling back from stoner when he couldn't keep pace with him, and crashed again trying to get a lead on him at Brno. Dovi has matched stoner's pace in one race. What stoner has done when on a competitive bike so far this year, as he did in 2007, is ride almost perfectly with no mistakes, as jorge did last year and valentino has done seven times. Dani has not yet shown this capacity as Brno demonstrates.



Your pedrosa argument is also imo a less blatant example of a logical fallacy which I for want of a better word might call the talpa fallacy. Bereft of legitimate avenues to discredit stoner, hypothetical ones are invented, and responders accused of bias if they disagree or question the validity of the tactic. As pete bass said with much more wit than me, as is his wont, things might also be different if the beatles hadn't broken up or mike hailwood was (physically as well as metaphysically) immortal. An injury free dani pedrosa may well have contested more closely for titles. If he was a martian with superpowers he may have as well. Unfortunately the second is not much more hypothetical than the first, and stoner can do no more than beat the dani pedrosa who actually turns up on the grid to race him.

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Mackie said:

You clearly are disturbingly obsessed with this issue, so much so that you continue to invent. At no point am I discrediting anyone, I'm starting to dislike some Stoner supporters more as they predominately have a

rather large chip on their shoulder, emphasized above.

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birdman said:

Well if you put it that way it should have taken 80 sec

. But to be fair and try to make a reasonable post without paying out on Rossi, he came off the Yamaha, clearly a bike with great handling. Going from that to a Ducati must be a hard transition, not that Rossi cared while Stoner was riding the Duc.



After one ride at Valencia it should have been clear to Ducati it was not going to be the a magical dream combination with Rossi that they wanted. So if they have been running around paying all the attention to Rossi, making him bike updates and going round in circles looking at Delta box frames, meanwhile ignoring Hayden who has more experience, then they are a bunch of idiots in my book. They should be concentrating MORE on Hayden to develop, while Rossi concentrates MORE on getting his head around the Ducati.



Does anyone know if Hayden set the Brno test time on the new GP11.1 or the old bike. If its the new one I'm impressed, he's faster than Rossi and its his first day on it.

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Mackie said:

You clearly are disturbingly obsessed with this issue, so much so that you continue to invent. At no point am I discrediting anyone, I'm starting to dislike some Stoner supporters more as they predominately have a

rather large chip on their shoulder, emphasized above.

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birdman said:

Michaelm - going to PI this year?

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michaelm said:

The practice of psychiatry over the internet, particularly by non-psychiatrists, does not as yet have wide scientific currency. Argumentum ad hominem is also by convention the last resort of those defeated in argument, although admittedly a common tactic on here, by one poster in particular, also an internet psychiatrist and perhaps a friend of yours.



You talk of invention. Since your posting of your distaste for stoner supporters I have criticised you considerably, but not valentino rossi at all than I can recall, unless you are him.



.....

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michaelm said:

Thinking about it. If you are the same birdman I have enjoyed your work on the aussie forum.

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gumby1 said:

I absolutely agree with you. Clearly Duc are putting all their eggs in one golden basket, whilst Nicky has been through all the positive and negative enhancements with them thru the CS era.

One would assume that by working with Nicky and improving his corner stability and overall feel for the machine will allow Vale to adapt to the bike without the added responsibility of focusing on testing parts.

I dont see why they would have their most talented rider being nothing more than a test rider and Nicky coming in few spots behind each time out.

My way of thinking is if Nicky manages to find 2-3/10 from testing i would hope Vale on race day would extract another couple of tenths purely by being the better rider improving their combined results as a team where on the flip side if vale was testing and found 3/10 i dont think nicky would benefit equally on the stop watch !

Not taking anything away from nicky but he is the #2 rider at ream red all be it not by much..

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michaelm said:

The practice of psychiatry over the internet, particularly by non-psychiatrists, does not as yet have wide scientific currency. Argumentum ad hominem is also by convention the last resort of those defeated in argument, although admittedly a common tactic on here, by one poster in particular, also an internet psychiatrist and perhaps a friend of yours.



Just for my interest, what is your evidence for ....

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michaelm said:

The practice of psychiatry over the internet, particularly by non-psychiatrists, does not as yet have wide scientific currency. Argumentum ad hominem is also by convention the last resort of those defeated in argument, although admittedly a common tactic on here, by one poster in particular, also an internet psychiatrist and perhaps a friend of yours.



You talk of invention. Since your posting of your distaste for stoner supporters I have criticised you considerably, but not valentino rossi at all than I can recall, unless you are him.



Just for my interest, what is your evidence for the marked superiority of stoner's honda? It is fairly clearly a better bike than rossi's ducati, as is the 2011 yamaha. Just as clearly the 2010 honda and 2010 yamaha were better than the 2010 ducati. At the moment a factory honda rider is first in the championship and a factory yamaha rider is second. Two riders widely acknowledged to be quite talented, both former lower class world champions in fact, are over 100 points off the lead on factory honda bikes. Your point is?

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Talpa said:

Mackie.........do yourself a favor..........Mick is Casey's Tenseng Norgay, and Casey is Jesus Christ on a Motorcycle in his church............you are beating your head against a reinforced brickwall with years of build up!!!!

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michaelm said:

The practice of psychiatry over the internet, particularly by non-psychiatrists, does not as yet have wide scientific currency. Argumentum ad hominem is also by convention the last resort of those defeated in argument, although admittedly a common tactic on here, by one poster in particular, also an internet psychiatrist and perhaps a friend of yours.



You talk of invention. Since your posting of your distaste for stoner supporters I have criticised you considerably, but not valentino rossi at all than I can recall, unless you are him.



Just for my interest, what is your evidence for the marked superiority of stoner's honda? It is fairly clearly a better bike than rossi's ducati, as is the 2011 yamaha. Just as clearly the 2010 honda and 2010 yamaha were better than the 2010 ducati. At the moment a factory honda rider is first in the championship and a factory yamaha rider is second. Two riders widely acknowledged to be quite talented, both former lower class world champions in fact, are over 100 points off the lead on factory honda bikes. Your point is?

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Mackie said:

Well if you choose to take that as an insult it's your choice, to some who are so passionate about there hero's, consider it obsession. I find it a little disturbing that you feel the need to

be so defensive, however this is in no way an insult, it all depends on your point of view and what you like to make of statements typed on a forum, speaking of presumptuous mindset evaluation.

You are presuming a lot, and have so since the beginning of the discussion and this is actually Augementum Ad Hominem in the eyes of some.



I actually didn't post a blanket distaste for Stoner supporters at all, I posted that I was starting to dislike 'SOME' of them, hardly a 'Distaste' for Stoner supporters, otherwise I wouldn't like myself much either?

Again you are presuming a lot which is mostly false, and tarring me with the same brush as others here, who are obviously rather bias Rossi fans or Stoner Detractors.



In another other thread, similar to this one you will see that I've already stated the reasons as to why my view is that the Honda is superior to last season, a view that is based from what I read and seen around evidence from inside observers, Journalists, teams and riders.

One of those riders is not on a Factory Honda, although it would make much difference in Aoyamas case as we saw in Assen, and clearly Sic does not have the consistency of Stoner or Dovi for that matter, he is as fast, and faster, on some occasions though.

My point is, and I'll make it again, that In order to succeed-the best riders still need the best equipment or close to, this does not take away from their talent at all. Stoner has taken advantage of this better than any other 'Honda' rider.

No doubt Stoner would still perform well on a 2011 Factory Yamaha as well, whether or not he would beat Jorge on the M1 is difficult to say. My belief and point is that the rider no longer can make the difference with what is inferior machinery.

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Mr Squiggle said:

If you are going to propose obscure sherpa analogies so you can seemingly look clever at least get the the names right - its Tenzing Norgay you ...........

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J4rn0 said:

I cannot believe there are some who still refuse to credit Casey Stoner fully. What has a rider to do to convince critics?



In 62 years of motorcycle GP history, only 9 riders were able to win the title at their debut on a new bike in the premier class: Leslie Graham (1949, AJS), Umberto Masetti (1950, Gilera), John Surtees (1956, MV Agusta), Gary Hocking (1961, MV Agusta), Phil Read (1973, MV Agusta), Kenny Roberts (1978, Yamaha), Eddie Lawson (1989, Honda), Valentino Rossi (2004, Yamaha), Casey Stoner (2007, Ducati).



Should Casey win this season, he would be the first rider in history able to repeat that feat, first with Ducati then with Honda. Not only that -- he would also be the first rider to win the title again after not winning it for more than two years (previously only Agostini and Rossi were able to win it again after losing it for two years in a row).



The above gives you the idea of how difficult it is, for any rider, to succeed in the first season he is on a new and unknown bike. The factory may have a complete database from previous years, and the tracks and their bends are the same the rider has already encountered before; but a rider on a new bike will have to find again that fine personal feeling that serves to set up the bike properly. Casey may have an advantage there because he seems to be able to "override" his bikes: he makes them turn by using the throttle and rear brake and making them slide, and he seems to be able to do that on just about any (MotoGP!) bike.



Stoner's style depends much more on the tires than on the bike -- he overrides the bike and rides the tires directly, one could say. He will be most sensitive to changes in grip, as we have seen recently. Traction was the strong point of the Honda when this season began, but at a certain point in the season Bridgestone began delivering harder tires (this was confirmed by Christian Gabarrini, Stoner's chief technician who followed him from Ducati). The Honda with its screamer engine suddenly had a little more trouble in finding the right grip. We have been seeing Casey getting it right only at warmup, something new for him.



Anyway, 2011 could bring Casey a double realization: being the first rider in history to win two times at his debut on a new bike, and the joy of becoming father. Enzo Ferrari used to say that each son costs a driver one second, but judging from how things went last Sunday, Stoner could prove to be exceptional in this respect too.

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