[Rossi]..."at bottom of the slope." Doohan

Anders GUZZI said:

To be honest,I don't know enough about that,just took a guess.

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Anders,



Doohan has at times in the past been very critical of Stoner for differing reasons (post Laguna as an example) but has always maintained that he is a sublime talent and one deserving of factory equipment. Alternately, MD has been very glowing of VR having played a 'guidance' role at Honda in the early VR years and having sommented positively a number of times.



But throughout MD has been critical of VR if he felt the need although of late MD has definitely been more positive of Stoner than in the past which is making me think taht Honda loyalty may be playing a part, and also excitement on MD's behalf regarding the prospects









Gaz

Gaz said:

Anders,



Doohan has at times in the past been very critical of Stoner for differing reasons (post Laguna as an example) but has always maintained that he is a sublime talent and one deserving of factory equipment. Alternately, MD has been very glowing of VR having played a 'guidance' role at Honda in the early VR years and having sommented positively a number of times.



But throughout MD has been critical of VR if he felt the need although of late MD has definitely been more positive of Stoner than in the past which is making me think taht Honda loyalty may be playing a part, and also excitement on MD's behalf regarding the prospects









Gaz

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Mick is a honda guy, he will support the honda guy, particularly if as someone suggested he is semi-officially mentoring stoner.



I wasn't joking, I actually think mick might also have been enlisted on the mind game front, which stoner himself will always lose with rossi in view of their relative stature in the sport and valentino's great ease with the media in comparison to stoner's fairly profound unease, to say nothing of rossi's inherent humour and quickness. Mick can have little digs at valentino, which this probably was, without it rebounding on casey. My first thought was that "your ambition exceeded your talent" sounded like something mick doohan would say anyway, and I still think it was an apposite and accurate statement and was necessary to demonstrate that stoner wasn't going to take being torpedoed lying down. That it outraged the dignity of the talpas of this world was an added bonus.



I wouldn't detract from any of rossi's titles in any way, but nor should the titles of other riders be detracted from, particularly given that the arguments used to do so could even perhaps more than equally be applied to some of rossi's titles, as we have discussed ad nauseum.

Michael,



You need to clean out your PM's.



I tried to send you a few just to catch up but no go.





Gaz

Gaz said:

Michael,



You need to clean out your PM's.



I tried to send you a few just to catch up but no go.





Gaz

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Sorry gaz , I had not realised I had reached the limit of the storage capacity; I have cleaned it out now. I did try to pm you recently but got the 'blocked' signal.

Jumkie said:

On a related note, historically, I think Doohan has been much more sympathetic to Rossi as he's been to Stoner.

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That ended in 2003-4.

Jumkie said:

Please tell me the article is a joke Goatboy.

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Well I didn't write it



Interesting though is that perhaps the first two races of the season are the only fair comparison we will get to make; Rossi having ridden "Stoner's bike" in anger only on those two occasions. With the changes due to come into effect at Estoril & the benefit of the ILLEGAL!!!1111 Jerez test of last week, they may no longer be comparable.

Rossi's biggest problem (as I've mentioned before) is that he has been the man to beat for the riders entering the class since 2006. Pedrosa, Stoner, Lorenzo, Spies (maybe), they all knew coming into the class that they had to beat Valentino Rossi if they wanted to be World Champion. So they've worked on every aspect of their riding to match Rossi's pace, and become so good they now have a chance of beating him on any given race day. He had a target on his back, and the youngsters are getting better at hitting the target.



Rossi is not going backwards, he is merely succumbing to the hordes of youngsters chasing him.

Kropotkin said:

Rossi's biggest problem (as I've mentioned before) is that he has been the man to beat for the riders entering the class since 2006. Pedrosa, Stoner, Lorenzo, Spies (maybe), they all knew coming into the class that they had to beat Valentino Rossi if they wanted to be World Champion. So they've worked on every aspect of their riding to match Rossi's pace, and become so good they now have a chance of beating him on any given race day. He had a target on his back, and the youngsters are getting better at hitting the target.



Rossi is not going backwards, he is merely succumbing to the hordes of youngsters chasing him.

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With all due respect, I would contend that much of that competition has been quarantined to a degree. Stoner, having to compete against Rossi-Yamaha on a Ducati (something Vale, for all his supposed legendary talent hasn’t managed to ride at very least to Stoner’s level), Lorenzo, the factory dynamic exposing (really reminding us) the decidedly inequitable treatment of rider X to teammate Rossi (confirmed by Vale’s disgruntled exit to another factory that would restore said dynamic) and may I add, once released from said dynamic, Jorge shined, Pedrosa, almost good enough, but not before detrimentally effecting others who may have challenged Rossi. Why even discuss satellite efforts, as they are inconsequential in terms of championship. Rossi’s titles are not without merit, but lets not gloss over the footing his rivals have had to contend against the juggernaut (in many aspects).

Jumkie said:

With all due respect, I would contend that much of that competition has been quarantined to a degree. Stoner, having to compete against Rossi-Yamaha on a Ducati (something Vale, for all his supposed legendary talent hasn’t managed to ride at very least to Stoner’s level), Lorenzo, the factory dynamic exposing (really reminding us) the decidedly inequitable treatment of rider X to teammate Rossi (confirmed by Vale’s disgruntled exit to another factory that would restore said dynamic) and may I add, once released from said dynamic, Jorge shined, Pedrosa, almost good enough, but not before detrimentally effecting others who may have challenged Rossi. Why even discuss satellite efforts, as they are inconsequential in terms of championship. Rossi’s titles are not without merit, but lets not gloss over the footing his rivals have had to contend against the juggernaut (in many aspects).

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While there is merit in your points, the point I was making is that the reason that the competition has caught up with Rossi is because he was the man they were aiming at. Biaggi and Gibernau entered MotoGP before Rossi, and weren't aiming at Rossi, so Rossi blew by them on talent alone. He's never had to work so hard, now that he is the yardstick.

Kropotkin said:

While there is merit in your points, the point I was making is that the reason that the competition has caught up with Rossi is because he was the man they were aiming at. Biaggi and Gibernau entered MotoGP before Rossi, and weren't aiming at Rossi, so Rossi blew by them on talent alone. He's never had to work so hard, now that he is the yardstick.

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I totally agree regarding the target part. Yes, it’s the #1 plate dynamic. I get that. And yup, the dogs are chasing the rabbit making the dogs faster while at some point the rabbit, still fast, gets caught. I just quoted your post to make another point. It’s my rational/irrational trepidations of authentic competition in GP that often make me rant.

hey jums...jordan's the greatest basketball player right? do you think he'd be better than magic johnson at the point guard spot?

metaphor for rossi riding stoner's bike.../shrug



lol

Kropotkin said:

Rossi's biggest problem (as I've mentioned before) is that he has been the man to beat for the riders entering the class since 2006. Pedrosa, Stoner, Lorenzo, Spies (maybe), they all knew coming into the class that they had to beat Valentino Rossi if they wanted to be World Champion. So they've worked on every aspect of their riding to match Rossi's pace, and become so good they now have a chance of beating him on any given race day. He had a target on his back, and the youngsters are getting better at hitting the target.



Rossi is not going backwards, he is merely succumbing to the hordes of youngsters chasing him.

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All jokes and rancour over the last race incident aside, now that his shoulder seems likely to heal I would still say that he would finish 1st or 2nd in the championship on a competitive bike; I think only lorenzo and stoner have both the talent and the experience to beat him with regularity, and I doubt both at once would be likely to have sufficient fortune or lack of misfortune in the same season to relegate rossi to third, since some luck is necessary to beat him as well.



His problem is that through circumstance or ego depending on point of view he is with ducati, not honda or yamaha.

Tekniqs said:

hey jums...jordan's the greatest basketball player right? do you think he'd be better than magic johnson at the point guard spot?

metaphor for rossi riding stoner's bike.../shrug



lol

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And a bad one at that. Rossi's job is to ride a bike, not take on JB's or anyone elses spot on the team. There are 5 positions on a basketball team, Jordan was assigned as the 2 guard. There are positions on a GP team, and Rossi has been assigned as the rider, just like Stoner was assigned when he was at Ducati. You might have said, would Jordan have been as successful with the New Jersey Nets as he was with the Bulls, and the answer would have been, Yes, if he was allowed to take Phil Jackson and Scottie Pippen with him when he switched teams.

i'm saying positions...different players thrive in different positions as different riders will thrive on different bikes ...../shrug

Tekniqs said:

i'm saying positions...different players thrive in different positions as different riders will thrive on different bikes ...../shrug

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But Rossi didnt change position, he changed teams. His position is still the same.You asked if Jordan would have excelled as a point guard. That would be like me asking if Rossi would excel as a crew chief

Tek, I didn't reply because the analogy was impossible. I'm not sure what you point still is, even with Povs clarification. I just as soon say, "bad analogy" then try to come up with a better one buddy.



Ok, I have my own fake analogy. Would Rossi have excelled and scored all his titles as a motorcycle racer on a 3rd tier bike like Ducati if all his best rivals were on 1st tier bikes as motorcycle racers?

well i mean, you guys are criticizing rossi cuz he can't ride the duc as well as casey did. perhaps it's down to style/preference or what they're used to. lol scratch the analogy then.



put it this way, do you think rossi wouldn't be going as fast/faster than stoner on the honda?

Tekniqs said:

put it this way, do you think rossi wouldn't be going as fast/faster than stoner on the honda?

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Stupid question ......... of course he wouldn't,and Rossi now knows that.



Why would you even ask such a question ?





Folks have been saying Stoner is the fastest for years, its just that it was not translating to WC's ...... the natural thing to assume was that it was due to the Ducati. Only the Boppers were denying this, and indeed they would proffer that Rossi would kick ... on the Ducati .......



The answer is in



The only thing now it seems that Stoner has to avoid is the "non-deliberate/unintentional vendetta" from Rossi due to all the above and the loss of face he has incurred due to the above. We saw a Rossi attempt at "kamakaziing" Stoner at Qatar, he was not pulled up for that idiotic behaviour then, so we got the Jerez incident.





missed him ..... Qatar round 1 2011









got him! ........ Jerez round 2 2011

Great posts from Krop, Jums & Michaelm.... Everyone wants to be the best and the best has been Rossi, every sport has its yardstick.



Barry, you're letting the side down......again

spooky said:

Great posts from Krop, Jums & Michaelm.... Everyone wants to be the best and the best has been Rossi, every sport has its yardstick.



Barry, you're letting the side down......again

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Your post says it all really! Rossi is the best has-been