[Rossi]..."at bottom of the slope." Doohan

Jumkie said:

Question J4rno, is it fair to compare titles straight up between Stoner Ducati and Rossi Yamaha? Lets for a moment put Rossi Ducati and Stoner Yamaha the last 4 years. In your estimation, would there have been a different picture?

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Caution: this kind of exercise belongs to the category of mental onanism, and should be avoided



However, imho Ducati in 2007 was difficult to beat, in the right hands -- and 'right hands' for me means either Stoner or Rossi. You know I consider Stoner and Rossi the best riders in activity -- the "fastest" and the "greatest"



The following three years (2008, 2009, 2010) are more and more mentally onanistic to guess, since the Yamaha improved a lot, but it is not sure it would have improved the same without Rossi. And Ducati did not improve much, it seems, but it is impossible to tell whether it would have improved more or not, with Rossi (it would surely have changed along different lines). So it's impossible to separate the riders from the bikes like that, -- and that brings us back to the initial words of caution...



(...and I left the tires out of the mental exercise... that would make things way too complicated...)

jumkie, i think there is no straight answer to your question



its like comparing agostini to hailwood...how many titles on a good bike equal the accomplishment of winning on a midpack bike?

J4rn0 said:

Caution: this kind of exercise belongs to the category of mental onanism, and should be avoided

However, imho Ducati in 2007 was difficult to beat, in the right hands -- and 'right hands' for me means either Stoner or Rossi. You know I consider Stoner and Rossi the best riders in activity -- the "fastest" and the "greatest"

The following three years (2008, 2009, 2010) are more and more mentally onanistic to guess, since the Yamaha improved a lot, but it is not sure it would have improved the same without Rossi. And Ducati did not improve much, it seems, but it is impossible to tell whether it would have improved more or not, with Rossi (it would surely have changed along different lines). So it's impossible to separate the riders from the bikes like that, -- and that brings us back to the initial words of caution...

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I agree, its totally hypothetical. But are you suggesting Rossi would have had similar success to Stoner in 07? If that is true, then why, if Stoner podiumed on the "current" form of Ducati at Valencia did just two days later Rossi couldn't break into top ten in test? Why, if on the "current" bike, did Stoner lead at Qatar while did Rossi only manage 7th? (May I remind you, you said the shoulder was not enough of an issue, and the bike has not been revamped).



So then, you cannot make any kind of assessment regarding the picture, had the two riders traded bikes? (caution)

cliché guevara said:

jumkie, i think there is no straight answer to your question



its like comparing agostini to hailwood...how many titles on a good bike equal the accomplishment of winning on a midpack bike?

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True, but I'm just trying to get an idea of how J4rno mind works out the reality of the current situation, when he (like others) simply say Rossi is to account for his success, while saying his talent is still at a high level, yet today he is struggling on the Ducati. A bike, according to J4rno, is unchanged from Valencia. A bike that Stoner podiumed on. I'm trying to figure out where J4rno gets the idea that if Rossi & Stoner traded rides for the last four years that somehow the picture still would have pointed to Rossi being the man to beat. (caution)

Goatboy said:

Rossi already ahead of Stoner

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Please tell me the article is a joke Goatboy.



Well of course Rossi is ahead of Stoner in points comparison. Uhm, thanks to Rossi torpedoing him!!!



HAHAHAHA



EDIT: What I mean by comparison is the article comparing Stoner 2010 to Rossi 2011 start to the season.

Goatboy said:

Rossi already ahead of Stoner

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!!



lets wait a couple of races, 2 races isn't even close enough to draw conclusions ,especially if you only consider race results and not outright speed. but its always fun to see stuff like that, i wonder to what statistics and statements the rossi camp has to stoop down to in a couple of races, should be hiillarious come mid season





i get what youre saying jum, it is getting a bit funny . well there are other reasons to be found as to why rossi is struggling and if not,theres always the blessing of the hurt shoulder to come back to

BarryMachine said:

1. JB and many other riders have done that.



2.

........

The Ducati has never been the best bike ..... ever

3. Rossi did a crap job, constantly risking it because he knew the risk was not the front end at the rain speeds so he though he would have his biggest chance this year.

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Nice of you to take your head out of Stoner's arsehole for long enough to concoct your purile response.



Look at the grid VR/JB are the only current team to have developed a consistently winning bike, whereas Honda spends a whole lot more money and still is not consistent - could change in 2011. In 2007 and 2008 the Ducati was the bike to beat - go back and look at it's performance, hat off to Ducati and Stoner at the time - nobody could match the speed or acceleration - and it handled then - if not as smoothly as the slower Yamaha. Look at Qatar and Laguna

Jumkie said:

Please tell me the article is a joke Goatboy.



Well of course Rossi is ahead of Stoner in points comparison. Uhm, thanks to Rossi torpedoing him!!!



HAHAHAHA

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The article is comparing Stoner last year on Ducati to Rossi this year. Stoner is actually still ahead of Rossi this year, even with being torpedoed at Jerez.



Its still a joke, just one of those bops looking for a silver lining. I could have ridden a stock R1 in last years Qatar GP and scored as many points as Casey. This jack off equates riding around in 7th place, 17 seconds off the lead, to crashing out of a 2 second lead , then crows that his rider scored more points. I bet he is a Danica Patrick fan also.

povol said:

The article is comparing Stoner last year on Ducati to Rossi this year. Stoner is actually still ahead of Rossi this year, even with being torpedoed at Jerez.

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Yes, hence why I said "comparison".

Its still a joke, just one of those bops looking for a silver lining. I could have ridden a stock R1 in last years Qatar GP and scored as many points as Casey. This jack off equates riding around in 7th place, 17 seconds off the lead, to crashing out of a 2 second lead , then crows that his rider scored more points. I bet he is a Danica Patrick fan also.

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Honestly, I'm at a loss for words at how to describe the motivation for the article and the lack of in depth analysis of the comparison. I'm not sure, but would "jumping the shark" be appropriate to use?

jazkat said:

question is would mick be saying this if rossi hadnt of broken a leg and won lastyears championship? not saying he would of but if he had.....



could be the dimentia kicking in i guess....... a bit like barry

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Maybe Doohan meant Rossi wasn't going to win 2010 healthy or not.

If one looks from Lorenzo's POV ,this was maybe the first real chance of taking the title,and he did.Breaking the points record.

From Stoner's POV,him and the machinery behind him was probarbly not pulling in the same direction.(Big offer to Lorenzo with the money they said they didn't have to develope what Stoner asked for.)So,not 2010,but this year.

Stoner and Lorenzo up there again this year with probarbly Pedrosa taking a few run away wins and so on.



In short I get the impression that Doohan,also loyal to Honda and countryman Stoner,meant that Stoner would win plenty championships if he stays put.

Anders GUZZI said:

In short I get the impression that Doohan,also loyal to Honda and countryman Stoner,meant that Stoner would win plenty championships if he stays put.

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On a related note, historically, I think Doohan has been much more sympathetic to Rossi as he's been to Stoner.

Jumkie said:

On a related note, historically, I think Doohan has been much more sympathetic to Rossi as he's been to Stoner.

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To be honest,I don't know enough about that,just took a guess.

When Mick says "You get ten years at the top" in way he is actually right in the sense that it was probably true in his times. The 2-strokes were real beasts and in general riders suffered more injuries than today.



And another thing regarding the Ducati 2007: in my opinion Ducati in 2007 wasn't the dominant bike, what made it unbeatable were the Bridgestone tyres which were superior. Remember that both Suzuki and Kawasaki (who were using Bridgestones that year) had their best results since the MotoGp class was introduced while Yamaha and Honda struggled. It's actually funny because the Stoner fanboys usually claim that the results in 2007 were thanks mainly to his riding while the Rossi fanboys say sth along the lines that the Yamaha was far behind Ducati that year and then Rossi developed it to be competitive in 2008. In my opinion what happened is simply Stoner/Ducati combination had an advantage with the tyres and when Rossi switched to Bridgestones the gap was closed.

Jumkie said:

I agree, its totally hypothetical. But are you suggesting Rossi would have had similar success to Stoner in 07? If that is true, then why, if Stoner podiumed on the "current" form of Ducati at Valencia did just two days later Rossi couldn't break into top ten in test? Why, if on the "current" bike, did Stoner lead at Qatar while did Rossi only manage 7th? (May I remind you, you said the shoulder was not enough of an issue, and the bike has not been revamped).



So then, you cannot make any kind of assessment regarding the picture, had the two riders traded bikes? (caution)

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I can appreciate the shoulder issue better now. The shoulder was not enough of an issue to prevent Rossi to podium on his beloved M1, before the operation; but it was enough of an issue on the unknown and more demanding Ducati, especially after the operation (operation = lots of external and internal cutting and stitches, on tendons that take months to heal).



Rossi would always take more time than Stoner to adjust to a new bike, but he would adjust in a reasonable time; he wouldn't fail like Melandri. The capacity to be immediately fast on any bike, with almost any setup, that's Stoner's special gift.



I think we'll have a better picture of Rossi on Ducati in the next few races. In have no doubts he can ride it fast when he's fit. Even Stoner could not win on it when he wasn't physically fit, remember?

J4rn0 said:

I can appreciate the shoulder issue better now. The shoulder was not enough of an issue to prevent Rossi to podium on his beloved M1, before the operation; but it was enough of an issue on the unknown and more demanding Ducati, especially after the operation (operation = lots of external and internal cutting and stitches, on tendons that take months to heal).



I think we'll have a better picture of Rossi on Ducati in the next few races. In have no doubts he can ride it fast when he's fit. Even Stoner could not win on it when he wasn't physically fit, remember?

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So you're now buying more into the shoulder thing. Fair enough, we'll see in a few races. Btw, when are you going to start to "appreciate the" development of the Ducati better too? Do you still stand by your notion that Ducati development is routine and not revolving around helping Rossi?

Jumkie said:

So you're now buying more into the shoulder thing. Fair enough, we'll see in a few races. Btw, when are you going to start to "appreciate the" development of the Ducati better too? Do you still stand by your notion that Ducati development is routine and not revolving around helping Rossi?

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As I see it, it is Rossi helping Ducati's development, not the other way round (as you always say).

Jumkie said:

So you're now buying more into the shoulder thing. Fair enough, we'll see in a few races. Btw, when are you going to start to "appreciate the" development of the Ducati better too? Do you still stand by your notion that Ducati development is routine and not revolving around helping Rossi?

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Well so far they haven't done much! Only tweaks, not to say that open heart surgery isn't being performed as we speak......



IMO they haven't done much up to this point under instruction from JB and Rossi, who prefer to wait for crucial time in the saddle, and the shoulder to improve, before evaluating where to go. Now they have twice as much Data than they did before Qatar so no doubt the changes will come.



I know your argument has been centered around Rossi/JB and the potential for Ducati to double their efforts and act on their feedback, when seemingly with riders in the past they haven't. This question can never be answered until Ducati releases all of the data and instructions from previous riders, and Ducatis/Flipios subsequent reactions, never going to happen.



As I've said previously Ducati were lulled into a false sense of security with Stoner able to win like he did, and vice-versa they could have also been fearful of losing their advantage with Stoner had they made major revisions. I don't believe the latter is ultimately the case towards the end, with serious make over parts in 2009 and 2010, including a new engine.



Of course Ducati is going to help Rossi and JB, why would they not? The bike was flawed last season, with both Stoner and Nicky not only making no progress with it, but going backwards. And of course Ducati is going to favor Rossi and JBs feedback over any previous or current rider as they have three times the successful experience of anyone out there. You don't spend millions hiring the Star player and Coach, only to continue on your merry way without listening and seriously acting on their feedback. I've certainly never seen this happen in any other sport, and it is ridiculous to expect Ducati to rest on their laurels and say to Rossi 'Well Casey won and got podiums on it last year (in between crashing)' so there it is, off you go!



I can understand your POV, that in a sense, they are focusing their development to help Rossi. As they should, as so far Nicky hasn't progressed too much either after two full years on the bike and under Stoners development. So no one can expect them to not seriously seek answers and direction from the best, after hiring them to do just that. And the jury is still out, how this benefits Nicky is yet to be seen.....Ducati 1-2s by the end of the season perhaps?

Talpa said:

Well so far they haven't done much! Only tweaks, not to say that open heart surgery isn't being performed as we speak......



IMO they haven't done much up to this point under instruction from JB and Rossi, who prefer to wait for crucial time in the saddle, and the shoulder to improve, before evaluating where to go. Now they have twice as much Data than they did before Qatar so no doubt the changes will come.



I know your argument has been centered around Rossi/JB and the potential for Ducati to double their efforts and act on their feedback, when seemingly with riders in the past they haven't. This question can never be answered until Ducati releases all of the data and instructions from previous riders, and Ducatis/Flipios subsequent reactions, never going to happen.



As I've said previously Ducati were lulled into a false sense of security with Stoner able to win like he did, and vice-versa they could have also been fearful of losing their advantage with Stoner had they made major revisions. I don't believe the latter is ultimately the case towards the end, with serious make over parts in 2009 and 2010, including a new engine.



Of course Ducati is going to help Rossi and JB, why would they not? The bike was flawed last season, with both Stoner and Nicky not only making no progress with it, but going backwards. And of course Ducati is going to favor Rossi and JBs feedback over any previous or current rider as they have three times the successful experience of anyone out there. You don't spend millions hiring the Star player and Coach, only to continue on your merry way without listening and seriously acting on their feedback. I've certainly never seen this happen in any other sport, and it is ridiculous to expect Ducati to rest on their laurels and say to Rossi 'Well Casey won and got podiums on it last year (in between crashing)' so there it is, off you go!



I can understand your POV, that in a sense, they are focusing their development to help Rossi. As they should, as so far Nicky hasn't progressed too much either after two full years on the bike and under Stoners development. So no one can expect them to not seriously seek answers and direction from the best, after hiring them to do just that. And the jury is still out, how this benefits Nicky is yet to be seen.....Ducati 1-2s by the end of the season perhaps?

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what is that famous quote..."I had a dream...." or "clutching at straws"

Mick only has 4 championships..he was gifted the 5th stolen from Max by the Catalunya track personnel