Respect between the riders

I agree. Not only are they respectful of each other they also only try to beat each other on the track. It does not appear to me that any of them are playing politics or trying to get leverage of the track over each other. It says to me that they do not fear being beaten by each other because together they lift the talent higher and respect for the eventual winner is greater because they had to win fair and square.



I also agree that Rossi is presently irrelevant and any mind games he tries are just plain laughable. I would love to see the score card Stoner and Lorenzo would give to Rossi and the fallout from it if they did.



If I were to give Rossi a score now it would be:



Development skills 3/10

Riding Skills 3/10

Race Skills 9/10

Mental Anarchist said:

I agree. Not only are they respectful of each other they also only try to beat each other on the track. It does not appear to me that any of them are playing politics or trying to get leverage of the track over each other. It says to me that they do not fear being beaten by each other because together they lift the talent higher and respect for the eventual winner is greater because they had to win fair and square.



I also agree that Rossi is presently irrelevant and any mind games he tries are just plain laughable. I would love to see the score card Stoner and Lorenzo would give to Rossi and the fallout from it if they did.



If I were to give Rossi a score now it would be:



Development skills 3/10

Riding Skills 3/10

Race Skills 9/10

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Wouldnt expect anything less from you Mental. I do agree that Rossi's mind games are pretty daft and futile but saying his riding skills are 3/10 is pretty funny...i think Jorge and Stoner would disagree with you as to say that, would be akin to playing the very same games Rossi keep trying to play. As for development, remember you cant polish a turd...unless you're Stoner

spooky said:

Wouldnt expect anything less from you Mental. I do agree that Rossi's mind games are pretty daft and futile but saying his riding skills are 3/10 is pretty funny...i think Jorge and Stoner would disagree with you as to say that, would be akin to playing the very same games Rossi keep trying to play. As for development, remember you cant polish a turd...unless you're Stoner

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Why is 3/10 for riding skills funny? The bike was a race winning bike. He has failed to ride it to a race win and therefore he could not be given higher than a 5 which would be a pass mark in my books. Remember he is considered to be the GOAT by many and in my opinion if he wants to be called the GOAT then he better be able to ride and win on anything he throws his leg over. My scores are not for his career they are for this season.



I think 3/10 for development skills is also fair. On the same bike last year Hayden placed 4th in quite a few races. Rossi's feedback has sent the bike further back on the grid then last year so I hardly think it can be said that he has had a pass mark on development. Remember he was hired to make the bike user friendly so that every body could ride it. The result so far is no one can ride it not even him. The same bike won races last season.



I gave a 9/10 for Race Skills because I think based on the other 2 scores he has raced bloody well. He is clearly struggling with the bike yet he has been able to use his considerable racing ability to drag the bike higher up the standings then he has looked at any other stage every race weekend. I actually considered giving him a 10.



I agree Stoner and Lorenzo would not give a score because they are not desperate nor are they vindictive.

Mental Anarchist said:

Why is 3/10 for riding skills funny? The bike was a race winning bike. He has failed to ride it to a race win and therefore he could not be given higher than a 5 which would be a pass mark in my books. Remember he is considered to be the GOAT by many and in my opinion if he wants to be called the GOAT then he better be able to ride and win on anything he throws his leg over. My scores are not for his career they are for this season.



I think 3/10 for development skills is also fair. On the same bike last year Hayden placed 4th in quite a few races. Rossi's feedback has sent the bike further back on the grid then last year so I hardly think it can be said that he has had a pass mark on development. Remember he was hired to make the bike user friendly so that every body could ride it. The result so far is no one can ride it not even him. The same bike won races last season.



I gave a 9/10 for Race Skills because I think based on the other 2 scores he has raced bloody well. He is clearly struggling with the bike yet he has been able to use his considerable racing ability to drag the bike higher up the standings then he has looked at any other stage every race weekend. I actually considered giving him a 10.



I agree Stoner and Lorenzo would not give a score because they are not desperate nor are they vindictive.

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So racing skills and riding skills dont go hand in hand? You having a laugh? 'aye he's an amazing racer but cant ride worth a ....' c'mon Mental, i know you know thats crap.



I dont think he's a bad development rider either, the bike needs radical changes to make it more friendly, i dont think the engineers are going to hit the target everytime. You do remember how .... the M1 was before 2004 dont you? Hayden could well have been 4th yesterday if he hadnt of ballsed up his tyre choice....he was also in the mix in warm up...fastest he's been all season in warm up i think. What bike was he riding again?

Mr Squiggle said:

I have been impressed with the level of respect shown between the main protagonists in MotoGP lately.



Last race again Spies, Stoner and Pedro were all quite chummy on the way to the podium and it is obvious that the current alpha males (Pedro, Jlo, Stoner, Spies, and Dovi) seem to be keeping the hostilities to a minimum and allowing their aggression to be taken out on the racetrack.



It seems however the only exception again is Rossi who recently had a few uncomplimentary words for both Stoner & Jlo - his two favourite whipping boys. His jibes aimed at the 2 championship leaders were classic Rossi mind game fodder and once again his bizarre rating system re-surfaced....downrating Stoners previously awarded perfect 10/10 score to a 9.5/10 and uprgarding Lorenzo from his original 9.5/10 to a now perfect 10/10 score in reference to a question he was asked regarding whom he believed was the championship favourite and better rider this season. It maybe time for them to issue a joint press release containing his performance rating for season 2011

The only problem for him is he is at present completely irrelevant and they probably could care less about his obvious attempts at creating dischord and friction - an environment in which he thrives and one he promotes for competitive advantage whenever the opportunity arises.



Anyway I enjoyed seeing the podium guys interacting in such a positive way as the bitching and sooking was getting out of hand at the start of this year and it was all getting a bit tedious.

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I expect there's a more congenial atmosphere among the top 4 guys as they are being written up for what the do as individuals, as opposed to constantly being measured against Rossi on a daily basis.



Not yet retired, and already he's coming down with grumpy, Wayne Gardiner, I'm-no-longer-relevant, nobody-pays-attention-to-me, ex-champion syndrome.



Tsk tsk.

Stubble.

spooky said:

So racing skills and riding skills dont go hand in hand? You having a laugh? 'aye he's an amazing racer but cant ride worth a ....' c'mon Mental, i know you know thats crap.



I dont think he's a bad development rider either, the bike needs radical changes to make it more friendly, i dont think the engineers are going to hit the target everytime. You do remember how .... the M1 was before 2004 dont you? Hayden could well have been 4th yesterday if he hadnt of ballsed up his tyre choice....he was also in the mix in warm up...fastest he's been all season in warm up i think. What bike was he riding again?

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Did you miss the constant comments from a section of the fan base that despite the speed of Stoner and the skills he so clearly displays he will never be the racer that Rossi was??????????



The fastest and the best rider does not always win. Why? Racecraft/raceskills. Rossi has them by the bucket full and he has displayed this this season. He has not displayed the same level of riding skills. He has taken down a rider, Stoner, through poor riding skills and he constantly looks terrible on the bike yet he finishes higher than I expect. Not sure what is not to understand about this???



If his development skills were good then he would have made some headway with the GP11 regardless of whether it needed wholesale changes or not. He never got the bike into the sweat spot. He never tweaked it well enough to get close to a win. He never found anything with it to pass on to other riders so they could do better then previous years riders. In my book he failed.

Mental Anarchist said:

Did you miss the constant comments from a section of the fan base that despite the speed of Stoner and the skills he so clearly displays he will never be the racer that Rossi was??????????



The fastest and the best rider does not always win. Why? Racecraft/raceskills. Rossi has them by the bucket full and he has displayed this this season. He has not displayed the same level of riding skills. He has taken down a rider, Stoner, through poor riding skills and he constantly looks terrible on the bike yet he finishes higher than I expect. Not sure what is not to understand about this???



If his development skills were good then he would have made some headway with the GP11 regardless of whether it needed wholesale changes or not. He never got the bike into the sweat spot. He never tweaked it well enough to get close to a win. He never found anything with it to pass on to other riders so they could do better then previous years riders. In my book he failed.

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I've seen those comments aye, whilst i think Casey is a faster rider i dont think he has craft of Rossi.....yet! He's a lot more patient this year though and knows that the bike will come to him, much more measured than he used to be thats for sure...probably the fickle nature of the heap of .... Ducati is to blame for that.



I agree with that statement as well Mental, the best rider doesnt always win, you cant deny though that to utilise your racecraft, you have to beable to ride the thing!



I think Rossi and his engineers hands are tied with the way the Ducati is built, adjustments that can be made to geometry etc are far less than they are used to, hence the radical redesign

while i think it's refreshing that this season is about the new blood instead of the old master (just like in 05 in f1) , you can't be serious about rossi being a slow rider,even by motogp standards.also i'd like to point out that even though feedback for set up changes is really important,no rider develops a bike.not rossi,not stoner,not lorenzo.



IF there is anything to take away from rossi then its that hes not able to win on all sorts of machinery...but who cares, everybody has a weak point,only the hardcore biased fans of any rider/driver would deny that.

and as much as i'm a fan of both stoner and lorenzo, i'm quite sure that at some point in their careers they will also struggle if they are on less than front running bikes that also don't really gel with them...



this is getting so boring....





edit: to elaborate, i suspect lorenzo would be struggling just as much although i think because of his young age he would try a little harder (just as a young rossi would ).



@ boner party : i know casey rode a POS duc to god knows how many victories, but try to imagine him on a well sorted bike that just lacks the grunt....don't know if he could override that

Mr Squiggle said:

I am not so sure about the Ducatis being any less tweakable than the other bikes but I think the setup window on the Ducati has far less margin for error and the ability to reproduce a consistent setup between supposedly identical race bikes is questionable on the Ducati - it was intimated that in the past due to the handcrafted nature of the trellis frame that consistentcy of setup was made more difficult but in theory other components may have also contributed to this phenomenom and still continue to do so.

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Thats a much better way of puting it...

spooky said:

I've seen those comments aye, whilst i think Casey is a faster rider i dont think he has craft of Rossi.....yet! He's a lot more patient this year though and knows that the bike will come to him, much more measured than he used to be thats for sure...probably the fickle nature of the heap of .... Ducati is to blame for that.



I agree with that statement as well Mental, the best rider doesnt always win, you cant deny though that to utilise your racecraft, you have to beable to ride the thing!



I think Rossi and his engineers hands are tied with the way the Ducati is built, adjustments that can be made to geometry etc are far less than they are used to, hence the radical redesign

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I agree. Despite what some would think I had a great deal of respect for Rossi in his early days. Part of this respect was his ability to play with his opponents on the track. He was supremely confident that no matter what he had their measure. Most of the time he was right.



The new guys know that if they give even an inch then they will be beaten because they are (not this year) racing against VALENTINO ROSSI as well as each of the other Aliens. Lorenzo, Pedrosa and Stoner are so bloody good that anyone of them can beat the others if the slightest mistake is made. This is unprecedented in MotoGP history. Because of this racecraft takes a back seat to time trial racing. Stoner recently has shown that he has the speed over the others and can employ this tactic that Rossi made his own and sit back a while and wait to pounce. I doubt that we will ever see him with the confidence to do it as Rossi did by waiting to 3 laps to go.



If some one asked Rossi if he thought he was riding well, what do you think he would say? I think he would say, NO!

Mental Anarchist said:

I agree. Despite what some would think I had a great deal of respect for Rossi in his early days. Part of this respect was his ability to play with his opponents on the track. He was supremely confident that no matter what he had their measure. Most of the time he was right.



The new guys know that if they give even an inch then they will be beaten because they are (not this year) racing against VALENTINO ROSSI as well as each of the other Aliens. Lorenzo, Pedrosa and Stoner are so bloody good that anyone of them can beat the others if the slightest mistake is made. This is unprecedented in MotoGP history. Because of this racecraft takes a back seat to time trial racing. Stoner recently has shown that he has the speed over the others and can employ this tactic that Rossi made his own and sit back a while and wait to pounce. I doubt that we will ever see him with the confidence to do it as Rossi did by waiting to 3 laps to go.



If some one asked Rossi if he thought he was riding well, what do you think he would say? I think he would say, NO!

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Maybe Dorna can convince Stoner to save Moto GP by employing those tactics. It made a god out of an above average rider, and created according to some, great racing. To me , it was as predictable as anything we see today, but hey, the masses love a come from behind victory, even if its contrived.

Mental Anarchist said:

I have said it for a while, the sport has moved on from Rossi and his style of sit back and wait till 3 laps to go and then blast everyone away and you and the yellow army don't like it. I used to enjoy this style of Rossi's as well but I also grew tired of it because I found it incredibly predictable just like I find Nascar and Indy Car predictable because I know that there is always going to be a yellow flag that is going to bunch the field up again so I can't get excited about someone putting in fast laps and pulling away.

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povol said:

Maybe Dorna can convince Stoner to save Moto GP by employing those tactics. It made a god out of an above average rider, and created according to some, great racing. To me , it was as predictable as anything we see today, but hey, the masses love a come from behind victory, even if its contrived.

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See my post from other thread (above). I too think the tactic was predictable and I soon grew bored with it. But the Talpa's of this world lap it up because their perception is clouded by the idolising.



I would like to see a return to multiple strategies being able to be employed by riders so that the race closed up towards the end as different strategies played out. Presently the tyre does not allow for multiple strategies which is the only mistake with the control tyre in my opinion.

Mental Anarchist said:

See my post from other thread (above). I too think the tactic was predictable and I soon grew bored with it. But the Talpa's of this world lap it up because their perception is clouded by the idolising.



I would like to see a return to multiple strategies being able to be employed by riders so that the race closed up towards the end as different strategies played out. Presently the tyre does not allow for multiple strategies which is the only mistake with the control tyre in my opinion.

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I think they should develop the tyres so they wear out with 7laps to go, the problem is they are by in large, far too durable. The skill of being able manage tyres isnt as important as it once was, this would bring the riders closer together...

Poor Bridgestone, when was the last time a company was vilified for making a product that was to good. Talking about a no win situation. If the tires go away with 7 laps to go, the guy who drops like a rock will tell the world the tires are .... and cost him the race. If they last the whole race, the fans ..... that the tires are to good and .... up the racing. Stoner, Pedrosa, Spies and Dovi made the tires work, turning their fastest laps late in the race. Lorenzo can ..... all he wants, his teammate made it work, proving the setup was there, they just didnt find it. Same with Simo, he burned his tires up in 6-7 laps, and the other 3 factory Honda's did just fine.

povol said:

Poor Bridgestone, when was the last time a company was vilified for making a product that was to good. Talking about a no win situation. If the tires go away with 7 laps to go, the guy who drops like a rock will tell the world the tires are .... and cost him the race. If they last the whole race, the fans ..... that the tires are to good and .... up the racing. Stoner, Pedrosa, Spies and Dovi made the tires work, turning their fastest laps late in the race. Lorenzo can ..... all he wants, his teammate made it work, proving the setup was there, they just didnt find it. Same with Simo, he burned his tires up in 6-7 laps, and the other 3 factory Honda's did just fine.

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I think Dunlop were guilty of this last year in Moto-2. Neil Spalding mentioned that their tyres could do twice race distance, this year they changed them. I dont think that the Bridgestones are that bad, but perhaps a softer contruction would heat up quicker and maybe wear out a bit quicker too...i dunno.

Mental Anarchist said:

If I were to give Rossi a score now it would be:



Development skills 3/10

Riding Skills 3/10

Race Skills 9/10

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Then I would rate you as poor judge of talent. Let's 2/10.

Mr Squiggle said:

I have been impressed with the level of respect shown between the main protagonists in MotoGP lately.



Last race again Spies, Stoner and Pedro were all quite chummy on the way to the podium and it is obvious that the current alpha males (Pedro, Jlo, Stoner, Spies, and Dovi) seem to be keeping the hostilities to a minimum and allowing their aggression to be taken out on the racetrack.



It seems however the only exception again is Rossi who recently had a few uncomplimentary words for both Stoner & Jlo - his two favourite whipping boys. His jibes aimed at the 2 championship leaders were classic Rossi mind game fodder and once again his bizarre rating system re-surfaced....downrating Stoners previously awarded perfect 10/10 score to a 9.5/10 and uprgarding Lorenzo from his original 9.5/10 to a now perfect 10/10 score in reference to a question he was asked regarding whom he believed was the championship favourite and better rider this season. It maybe time for them to issue a joint press release containing his performance rating for season 2011

The only problem for him is he is at present completely irrelevant and they probably could care less about his obvious attempts at creating dischord and friction - an environment in which he thrives and one he promotes for competitive advantage whenever the opportunity arises.



Anyway I enjoyed seeing the podium guys interacting in such a positive way as the bitching and sooking was getting out of hand at the start of this year and it was all getting a bit tedious.

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Well my friend, when you say "lately" are you selectively talking about Rossi's words to present? That's a rather short time. Well then, just go back a few more weeks. I disagree with your assessment highlighted above. It appears you have forgotten all the bitching, whining, complaining and .... slinging Lorenzo, Pedro, Dovi have thrown at Simonchelli (which lasted for several weeks). And Pedrosa, not wanting to shake Simo's hand on camera, though he himself was forgiven for a similar torpedo, where the victim at the time treated him friendly in public. I think Barbera even got in the mix with his own mudslinging. And the .... words of Casey Stoner toward Nicky, not to mention his little altercation with Abraham, here nice guy Karel vowed to avenge him. And I'll add the non-verbal communication Casey has had toward others on the track. Even Crutchlow has some words about a fellow competitor, though I think they were hilarious, when asked which overtaking was memorable, he said "when he passed Barbera, because I don't like him." So you have a list here of peeps acting less than "profession" (well, maybe not according to Bigguy's standard of "professionalism".)



So no, I don't think the main protagonist are doing a circle jerk. For the most part, Lorenzo and Casey sounded a bit like ..... divas several times this weekend with their ongoing complaining about the track, albeit, not about other riders, but bitching none the less.



So I don't think Rossi is the ONLY one guilty of such Primo Dona behavior. Just because these guys looked happy on the podium (odd place to be happy, right) that one should assume they are sucking eachother's dicks brotha.