Qatar Rd 1 2017

JPSLotus · Mar 23, 2017

There is a reason I call him Moto Moron gents.

Anyone as ignorant as him who thinks scientific fact can be debated does not deserve a thoughtful response. He deserves all your ridicule. In true bopper fashion, he knows nothing about the sport he professes to be a fan of.

moto vudu · Mar 23, 2017

p4p1 said:
Rossi brakes harder than Lornezo yet his soft front was fine. So was Dovisioso. Your basic understanding of Chunking vs wearing out is on full show again.

It would be better to say Rossi is often capable of braking harder than Lorenzo instead of claiming that every time Rossi hits the brakes he's doing so harder than Lorenzo. Since you dislike Rossi, why not ignore him and focus on Marquez instead? Marquez said in his post race interview he realized he needed to ride in a way to preserve his tires. Holy ....! How did he know he should do that?

Actually, it's most of you that have a terrible understanding of wet tires because you guys expect them wear like slicks and you're wrong. Even in car racing you'll find catastrophic failure of wet tires when used in the dry. Sometimes they can wear out gradually, but more often than not they'll deteriorate rapidly on a dry track and they wont all fail the exact same way.

michaelm · Mar 23, 2017

moto vudu said:
No one said anything about knowing the threshold of delamination. A rider doesn't need psychic abilities to know that a soft wet tire on a dry track wont last long unless attempts to conserve it are made. The tire could chunk, melt, or delaminate, who knows?! Bottomline is a soft wet tire is the least durable tire produced and has a very thin operating threshold. I don't buy the argument that a soft wet tire should always wear gradually and never fail if used in the dry. That's what hard wets and the old intermediates were for. Even the hard wet Bridgestones started chunking when riders stayed out in dry conditions too long.

That is the whole point.

There was no precedent for a wet tyre delaminating. The tyre went from performing fine to suddenly delaminating, the picture of the delaminated tyre didn't appear to show much wear and didn't as I recall show any chunking.

Whatever Bridgestones wets did they never delaminated. Dovi's similar tyre delaminated much earlier in full wet conditions in the same race suggesting there was at least a variability/quality control problem. As I said I don't think sudden delamination while performing fine is an acceptable way for a tyre to fail, and it didn't appear that such delamination was anticipated by Michelin, and if it was there should have been a mandatory tyre change. As I said on the previous post, Rossi was one of the fastest riders on that tyre himself anyway, and you are essentially accusing Lorenzo of being too cowardly to push harder at Assen in conditions which led to the race being red flagged, and of pushing too hard in a different race and hence being to blame for a tyre delaminating, while simultaneously claiming you are less biased than other posters.

moto vudu · Mar 23, 2017

Nicolas Goubert - Michelin Racing Technical Director

Q: Once you lose the tread you’ve still got some depth of carcass. That is sufficient for safety?

NG: The thing is you’re not losing all the tread. So you’re always running on some of the compound basically. I need to say for the tire brand, when you have over heating with a wet tire which is used on a dry surface, you lose chunks of compound, but you continue running on what’s left. You can go like that for quite a while. If it’s mid-race, for example, people come in. If you get two or three more laps to do, you can do them. So, not concerned. Safety is not at stake.

Q: At no point was the tire was going to collapse or explode or anything like that? Did you have any idea why because it seems to change, some people, I think Dovi had a problem at lap 10, Iannone lap 20?

NG: All the factors play a role in that. For example, you had some people like Barbera, who tried to keep the tire running sometimes on the wet patches to keep the tires cool. You had some people like Marquez that said, I felt straight away that I had made a risky choice with having a very soft front tire, so I paif attention not to brake too roughly because I knew that braking points were in the dry surface. So riding style, then your bike setup, all those things. When you are just at the edge of temperature, it can make a big difference concerning the laps.

Q: A couple of degrees might be the difference between four or five laps, being able to complete it. Did you tell people on the grid that you didn’t think the soft tire would make the race? Marc said he was told on the grid the soft tire won’t last the race.

NG: People made the choice to go with the soft tires. It’s always easy to talk after a race, when you know exactly what happened, especially with the weather. But on the grid some people had the information that it was supposed to rain 30 minutes after the start. So if these guys were right, the soft was a decent choice, I would say. But people who choose to go with the soft basically thought either it was going to rain or it was going to dry quickly for them to change the tires. And then people who made the choice to go with the hard thought they would do the whole distance. We were okay with both with these conditions. And people who saved their soft tires, could do the whole race.

Q: Hector Barbera did a brilliant job, so did Marc Márquez?

NG: And even Valentino with the soft front.

You remember Anthony Gobert? At the end of his racing career came back on a Superbike. Once he took part to race in Superbike and it was Phillip Island. The track was just wet at the beginning but we knew it was going to try. Phillip Island is a tire killer. So no chance to go with a rain tire. If you choose to go with a rain tire you will come in for sure, because you are going to have big chunks of compound going out of the tires, of the rear quite quickly. He said, I’m going to prove you wrong, because I’m going to go with that. I will be the only one. I will lead easily the first laps and then I’ll manage the tires. I’ll bring back the bike with the tires with all the tread. That's exactly what he did. He took 30 or 40 seconds advantage within the first four or five laps, and then was really easy on the throttle on the long corners. Won the race.

Q: So you take 30 seconds and then you lose 2 seconds a lap for the rest of the race?

NG: If you lose them at the right place to save the tires, you can go. So it’s not an exact science. It depends on a lot of factors.

moto vudu · Mar 23, 2017

michaelm said:
That is the whole point.

There was no precedent for a wet tyre delaminating. The tyre went from performing fine to suddenly delaminating, the picture of the delaminated tyre didn't appear to show much wear and didn't as I recall show any chunking.

Whatever Bridgestones wets did they never delaminated. Dovi's similar tyre delaminated much earlier in full wet conditions in the same race suggesting there was at least a variability/quality control problem. As I said I don't think sudden delamination while performing fine is an acceptable way for a tyre to fail, and it didn't appear that such delamination was anticipated by Michelin, and if it was there should have been a mandatory tyre change. As I said on the previous post, Rossi was one of the fastest riders on that tyre himself anyway, and you are essentially accusing Lorenzo of being too cowardly to push harder at Assen in conditions which led to the race being red flagged, and of pushing too hard in a different race and hence being to blame for a tyre delaminating, while simultaneously claiming you are less biased than other posters.

Delaminating or chunking it really doesn't matter, it's rubber separating from the tire. I'd say delaminating is probably more likely to occur because some of the tread (like the center strip that came off Lorenzo's tire) is simply glued/stuck on. An overheating wet tire might be performing well until the rubber starts to separate. Again, wet tires are a completely different beast than a slick, but you guys just can't grasp that. Oh well, I don't even want you to take my word for it. You could research racing rain tires on google and learn about how they're constructed and why they can fail in the dry suddenly and without warning.

Gaz · Mar 23, 2017

moto vudu said:
Actually, it's most of you that have a terrible understand of wet tires because you guys expect them wear like slicks and you're wrong. Even in car racing you'll find catastrophic failure of wet tires when used in the dry. Sometimes they can wear out gradually, but more often than not they'll deteriorate rapidly on a dry track and they wont all fail the exact same way.

Thanks for the lesson, and to hear it so succinctly puts my 20+ years of being around racing in perspective ............ I know nothing so I will take what you have written to those I know that have been racing cars or bikes for years, in some cases 50 years and get them in touch so that they can use your knowledge to better themselves.

A catastrophic failure is what happened to the Ducati tyres, the blow outs that nearly put riders into orbit.

A failure of a tyre is what occurs when chunking/delamination occurs as they are regarded by 99% of people within the game as tyre failures.

A wet tyre should not chunk and nor should it delaminate but it should wear and will wear at a faster rate as heat in the tyre rises (which can occur on a steaming track, a wet track or a dry track) but if that then manifests itself as delamination (as per Lorenzo/Ianonne and other in 2016) that is a tyre failure.

If your point is true, how then is it that slicks can also delaminate or chunk and yet be called tyre failures as opposed to acceptable and normal wear ?

You may well respond 'but slicks are designed for dry tracks', which is of course true but they are designed with an operating band in place are they not?

We see few slicks chunk or delaminate as they reach the end of their operating life (we have seen it however across the years) but rather their performance drops dramatically as they go from sticky to marshmellow which is essentially how a wet should deteriorate if taken from wet to dry surface (albeit faster than should a slick)

michaelm · Mar 23, 2017

moto vudu said:
Nicolas Goubert - Michelin Racing Technical Director

Q: Once you lose the tread you’ve still got some depth of carcass. That is sufficient for safety?

NG: The thing is you’re not losing all the tread. So you’re always running on some of the compound basically. I need to say for the tire brand, when you have over heating with a wet tire which is used on a dry surface, you lose chunks of compound, but you continue running on what’s left. You can go like that for quite a while. If it’s mid-race, for example, people come in. If you get two or three more laps to do, you can do them. So, not concerned. Safety is not at stake.

Q: At no point was the tire was going to collapse or explode or anything like that? Did you have any idea why because it seems to change, some people, I think Dovi had a problem at lap 10, Iannone lap 20?

NG: All the factors play a role in that. For example, you had some people like Barbera, who tried to keep the tire running sometimes on the wet patches to keep the tires cool. You had some people like Marquez that said, I felt straight away that I had made a risky choice with having a very soft front tire, so I paif attention not to brake too roughly because I knew that braking points were in the dry surface. So riding style, then your bike setup, all those things. When you are just at the edge of temperature, it can make a big difference concerning the laps.

Q: A couple of degrees might be the difference between four or five laps, being able to complete it. Did you tell people on the grid that you didn’t think the soft tire would make the race? Marc said he was told on the grid the soft tire won’t last the race.

NG: People made the choice to go with the soft tires. It’s always easy to talk after a race, when you know exactly what happened, especially with the weather. But on the grid some people had the information that it was supposed to rain 30 minutes after the start. So if these guys were right, the soft was a decent choice, I would say. But people who choose to go with the soft basically thought either it was going to rain or it was going to dry quickly for them to change the tires. And then people who made the choice to go with the hard thought they would do the whole distance. We were okay with both with these conditions. And people who saved their soft tires, could do the whole race.

Q: Hector Barbera did a brilliant job, so did Marc Márquez?

NG: And even Valentino with the soft front.

You remember Anthony Gobert? At the end of his racing career came back on a Superbike. Once he took part to race in Superbike and it was Phillip Island. The track was just wet at the beginning but we knew it was going to try. Phillip Island is a tire killer. So no chance to go with a rain tire. If you choose to go with a rain tire you will come in for sure, because you are going to have big chunks of compound going out of the tires, of the rear quite quickly. He said, I’m going to prove you wrong, because I’m going to go with that. I will be the only one. I will lead easily the first laps and then I’ll manage the tires. I’ll bring back the bike with the tires with all the tread. That's exactly what he did. He took 30 or 40 seconds advantage within the first four or five laps, and then was really easy on the throttle on the long corners. Won the race.

Q: So you take 30 seconds and then you lose 2 seconds a lap for the rest of the race?

NG: If you lose them at the right place to save the tires, you can go. So it’s not an exact science. It depends on a lot of factors.

I must have missed the quote about them expecting the tyre to delaminate, and the explanation for Dovi's tyre delaminating in the exact conditions for which the tyre was supposedly designed. Iirc Marquez was on a different tyre again, and his performance to last the race was probably the most remarkable of all as the Michelin man essentially says.

Gaz · Mar 23, 2017

moto vudu said:
Delaminating or chunking it really doesn't matter, it's rubber separating from the tire.

So marbles as they are called in racing, is (to use your above definition), the tyre chunking and delaminating, is that correct?

If so, what is normal wear ?

moto vudu · Mar 23, 2017

michaelm said:
I must have missed the quote about them expecting the tyre to delaminate, and the explanation for Dovi's tyre delaminating in the exact conditions for which the tyre was supposedly designed. Iirc Marquez was on a different tyre again, and his performance to last the race was probably the most remarkable of all as the Michelin man essentially says.

You must have skipped Goubert's first response in that quote when he mentioned "when you have over heating with a wet tire which is used on a dry surface, you lose chunks of compound." If an over heating wet tire can lose chunks of compound, it can damn sure lose any tread that's simply attached to the carcass.

moto vudu · Mar 23, 2017

Gaz said:
So marbles as they are called in racing, is (to use your above definition), the tyre chunking and delaminating, is that correct?

If so, what is normal wear ?

Marbles are a completely different phenomenon and really shows how ignorant some of you are to tires. Marbles occur as the track surface peels/shaves rubber from the tire and it collects with other pieces of hot rubber forming "marbles" that typically line the edge of the racing line.

Gaz · Mar 23, 2017

moto vudu said:
Marbles are a completely different phenomen and really shows how ignorant some of you are to tires. Marbles occur as the track surface peels/shaves rubber from the tire and it collects with other pieces of hot rubber forming "marbles" that typically line the edge of the racing line.

Not ignorant about tyres (have cleaned enough rubber marbles off tracks and driving facilities to know what a marble is) at all so pull your head back in there wikipedia.

You stated that 'Delaminating or chunking it really doesn't matter, it's rubber separating from the tire'.

So, marbles are rubber that has separated from the tyre ......... is that not true?

Now, if it is true than by your own definition it is the tyre chunking or delaminating (refer bolded quote from your good self).

Now, of course the marble is basically 'rubber pickup;' and not individual pieces of rubber however, to become a marble it must be using rubber that (again, your definition as it is rubber no longer connected to a tyre) has delaminated or chunked.

moto vudu · Mar 23, 2017

Gaz said:
Not ignorant about tyres (have cleaned enough rubber marbles off tracks and driving facilities to know what a marble is) at all so pull your head back in there wikipedia.

You stated that 'Delaminating or chunking it really doesn't matter, it's rubber separating from the tire'.

So, marbles are rubber that has separated from the tyre ......... is that not true?

Now, if it is true than by your own definition it is the tyre chunking or delaminating (refer bolded quote from your good self).

Now, of course the marble is basically 'rubber pickup;' and not individual pieces of rubber however, to become a marble it must be using rubber that (again, your definition as it is rubber no longer connected to a tyre) has delaminated or chunked.

If you're confused about tire marbles and chunking/delamination, you shouldn't even be attempting to participate in this debate.

michaelm seems to understand chunking, but has a problem with delamination and considers it worse or more unacceptable. I was attempting to tell him that any condition that could cause a tire to chunk could also cause it to delaminate... I'm specifically referring to the tread that's attached to the surface of a wet tire.

moto vudu · Mar 23, 2017

michaelm said:
I must have missed the quote about them expecting the tyre to delaminate, and the explanation for Dovi's tyre delaminating in the exact conditions for which the tyre was supposedly designed. Iirc Marquez was on a different tyre again, and his performance to last the race was probably the most remarkable of all as the Michelin man essentially says.

How did Marquez know where the threshold of delamination for the tyre was and stayed below it? That's is ludicrous.

p4p1 · Mar 23, 2017

No the issue is Vudu that no one who isn't paid by Michelin agrees with you.

p4p1 · Mar 23, 2017

moto vudu said:
How did Marquez know where the threshold of delamination for the tyre was and stayed below it? That's is ludicrous.

You're a ........ You know he's referring to the tyre wearing out and not chunking or delaminating.

moto vudu · Mar 23, 2017

p4p1 said:
No the issue is Vudu that no one who isn't paid by Michelin agrees with you.

You're a Marquez fan, well he believed the tires wouldn't last unless he preserved them. Again, Lorenzo did nothing to attempt to save the tires... he did just the opposite and set the fastest lap of the race on the dry line. Marquez had better situational awareness than Lorenzo.

Gaz · Mar 23, 2017

moto vudu said:
If you're confused about tire marbles and chunking/delamination, you shouldn't even be attempting to participate in this debate.

So no answer.

Correct me once again oh great one but who was it that stated 'Delaminating or chunking it really doesn't matter, it's rubber separating from the tire'.

Thus by pure extension of your argument (again, you typed it, not me), normal wear and tear that separates rubber from tyre is also chunking or delaminating.

moto vudu said:
michaelm seems to understand chunking, but has a problem with delamination and considers it worse or more unacceptable. I was attempting to tell him that any condition that could cause a tire to chunk could also cause it to delaminate... I'm specifically referring to the tread that's attached to the surface of a wet tire.

I would say that delamination likely preceeds chunking, although that is not to say that one cannot occur without the other.

Now, I say this as for mine, delamination starts with a separation of tyre construction (compounds, rubber on rubber, rubber on carcass etc) which generally then may lead to a chunk of rubber then separating totally from the tyre leaving the 'chunk' depression within the tread.

In my experience, a larger chunk is generally a sign of delamination of some kind having occurred as a 'non delamination' chunk is generally a smaller piece of rubber or can occur a 'pitting' type of holes (we have seen this from time to time across the years when tyres are right at the limits). That said, we rarely see the smaller chunking today as teh last I can think of would be back 2 - 3 years).

That said, delamination can occur without chunking as well but I cannot recall to many of these within MotoGP but recall a car race recently (local Australian) where the tyre tread near totally separated from the carcass (much like a retread tyre would) but it did not blow and had the drive recognise the issue quickly due to the obvious handling issues it caused

moto vudu · Mar 23, 2017

Gaz said:
So no answer.

Correct me once again oh great one but who was it that stated 'Delaminating or chunking it really doesn't matter, it's rubber separating from the tire'.

Thus by pure extension of your argument (again, you typed it, not me), normal wear and tear that separates rubber from tyre is also chunking or delaminating.

I guess you decided to jump into this debate to kill some time, but the main point you're attempting to make is simply pulling one of my comments to michaelm out of context. He was implying that a tire could chunk but should never delaminate. That's why I responded with delaminating or chunking doesn't matter, it's both rubber separating from the tires. We're discussing the ways a tire can deteriorate/fail. Trying to enter this debate with talk of tire marbles is completely off subject and the EXACT same thing JPS tried last year. Sometimes makes me wonder if you, michaelm, and JPS are the same person. I'd like to pull the ip addresses for all 3 of your accounts and see if they match. Either that or you look up to him and allow him to pollute your mind with his BS.

michaelm · Mar 23, 2017

What I believe Gaz is saying (he has been a race official for decades, I think for both car and bike racing, btw) is that delamination is an unacceptable way for a dry tyre to fail, and regarded as just that, a tyre failure, so why is it different for a wet tyre? I also believe him to be correct.

If you recall several riders including Valentino had delaminations of the tyre which was famously subjected to a rider's vote in 2012, and Valentino was quoted as saying Stoner was a "wizard" for predicting the tyre would fail in race conditions. I don't think there was much suggestion that Rossi's riding was to blame except from a few with extreme anti-Rossi views, who oddly enough were howled down (correctly imo) by Rossi fans for suggesting he could be responsible for a tyre failing in that manner.

I also have a vague recollection of the Michelin runners in an F1 race at a time when there was a tyre war not being able to start a race because of a tyre delamination problem; JPS will doubtless be able to tell me whether that is "fake news".

michaelm · Mar 23, 2017

moto vudu said:
How did Marquez know where the threshold of delamination for the tyre was and stayed below it? That's is ludicrous.

I don't think he used the tyre which delaminated for others, but a different tyre, as I said.

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