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Paris Hilton...cause for reflection

Ok, the post above where you call Anarchist gay and me a ....., it actually had some decent takes in it.
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(BTW, I'm curious to know why you think Casey has a "good ....".
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Anyway...



My point was to reflect on the future of the sport, as the guy who wrote the article also pondered the Rossi centric nature of the sport and implied its folly. (Right, do we agree so far that this was partially the guy's point?) He goes on to say that we don't need short term celebrity interest, which I disagree with because honestly any attention our sport gets to me is good. here in the States, most people don't know GP exist. If 80 pound anorexic Paris Hilton can get some attention, .... it, good. Again, the only quote I posted was this idea that the series revolves around Rossi, and its rare when others in the media say it, but when I say it, i'm just full of crap and a conspiracy theorist. But when somebody else says it, well I'll highlight it, then go on to say, what might this mean for the authenticity of the sport. I can't hardly believe that such a central figure would not be given special consideration (my agenda). But it also lent for a spring board to ponder the future of our sport, since we do have most of our fortunes wrapped up in one man (the article's words).



You contend that this dynamic has not negatively effected others but rather everybody is better for the spoils Rossi brings. Perhaps. But for me, I'm bothered that for example Kenny Roberts Senior has said the opposite. That the willingness of Dorna to brand their success around the Rossi brand made it harder for him to garner sponsorship. And when he did, their logos got little to know exposure because Dorna pushing Rossi TV 24-7. Ok, I accpet that you think I hate Rossi. do this exercise, go check out the pictures that the MotoGP website features from the last 5 years, event to event. One thing you will quickly realize, that Rossi comprises a disportionate entries. Who does the media get its cues from?



Just recently we hear Dovi say basically the same thing, that the series revolves around one man. Certainly they are not saying it like its a good thing, right? Are they hating, or pointing out a reality that has an affect on them? Yes, to a degree its made others richer, and to a degree, there is a flip side to this effect. Is this Rossi's fault? NO. But does he manipulate this dynamic to gain advantage? Well, in my opinion, yes.



Oh, and about your issue with the "scripted nature" of the sport. Ok, let me explain it if I haven't already. I'm NOT saying Dorna sets out to say, ok Rossi needs to win this race or this title. I'm saying that there is power politics and business agenda that manipulates rules in favor or detrimental to some competitors. For example, within the brands, factory teams will withold technology from designated satellites or certain competitors. The three examples that became public I can think of involved Barros, Roberts, and recently Spies. At an organizational level, of course its harder to prove because Dorna isn't gonna go public on itself, but others have alluded to the power plays. the examples I can think of are, the Saturday Nights, formula change, Bridgestone debacle, Spec tire, and the once proposed rev limit (mysteriously withdrawn). The Sat Nites, for a few choice rider(S), the formula change, Honda's brain child, Bstone debacle, decidedly for Rossi. So as you can see, I'm not saying it all is about making Rossi win, as sometimes it was about factories not letting satellites beat them, or Honda thinking they were gonna run the field with their jockey. Dorna's rev limit that would have effected Ducati's unique desmodronic valve technology at a time when this was serving them well and forcing the Japs to come up with a better technology. This is what I mean by the "scripted nature". Its a manipulation of the sport, either by teams or by the governing body to advance or detrimentally effect some honest contestants (not just Rossi, as you like to think I fixate on).





Actually I can agree with some of this, you make a far better point than Mentally. But not all of it as I'm sure you already know
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.if i ever hear the term "scripted nature" when discussing moto gp in person they promptly get punched in the ....... throat.
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.... paris



Seriously, I pissed my pants with fear when I read your post.

Seeing your a bloke who likes to use pictures to express himself, I thought this might be appropriate.
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InternetToughGuy.gif
 
'It is true that the central figure in the sport and the pillar that everything has been built around for a decade is Rossi. I have commented before that I believe that this is the very reason for the sports demise. The reason I have given is that if you are a sponsor looking at throwing money at the sport you look at it from a business perspective. A business person without emotion will see that the sport revolves around Rossi so if they want to put money in it must be on Rossi. '



Hello......what Rubbish, maybe we should all hit Marlboro, Monster, Alice, Repsol, Pramac, Redbull for some cash, they don't seem to know a good investment at all, their backing the wrong horse......





A simple answer with a question or two for the rest of your bs. Have the satellite teams become more competative with less practice time? Have they spent less trying to become competative with less track time? Are there more or less of them as a result of this? Then why the switch back to more practice time next year if its working so well? Ahh yes, to help Rossi on the Ducati....



The answers speak for themselves. Unless somehow it's Rossi's fault......
 
'It is true that the central figure in the sport and the pillar that everything has been built around for a decade is Rossi. I have commented before that I believe that this is the very reason for the sports demise. The reason I have given is that if you are a sponsor looking at throwing money at the sport you look at it from a business perspective. A business person without emotion will see that the sport revolves around Rossi so if they want to put money in it must be on Rossi. '



Hello......what Rubbish, maybe we should all hit Marlboro, Monster, Alice, Repsol, Pramac, Redbull for some cash, they don't seem to know a good investment at all, their backing the wrong horse......





A simple answer with a question or two for the rest of your bs. Have the satellite teams become more competative with less practice time? Have they spent less trying to become competative with less track time? Are there more or less of them as a result of this? Then why the switch back to more practice time next year if its working so well? Ahh yes, to help Rossi on the Ducati....



The answers speak for themselves. Unless somehow it's Rossi's fault......



How this has anything to do with funding and sponsors I don't know but I will humour you any way.



My understand or guess of a satellite teams costs are:



Lease a bike and engineering support to go with it. Fixed cost for a season and not dependent on the number of laps done.

Logistical costs including transport, storage, accommodation etc. Dependent on number of race meets per year not number of laps done.

Personell costs inc. rider. Fixed based on contracts signed for the year plus additional for performance related bonuses not dependent on number of laps done.

Marketing and promotions. Not dependent on number of laps done.



I am happy for you to correct or add to any of these but I fail to see how practice reduction or increase has added or reduced costs to a satellite team.



As far as competitiveness of a satellite team in relation to the amount of time available for practice, well in my OPINION there is no difference one way or the other. You said you had factual evidence to support your claim what ever that is so we are waiting to see it.



If you would like to know the reason in my opinion why they are going back to 4 x 60min practice sessions is because the cost issue (number of k's done) is now controlled by the number of engines allowed. If you recall the reduction in practice was to reduce the number of k's done and therefore the number of rebuilds. If it was practical they could have unlimited practice time and the teams would probably still only run the same number of laps as that is all the engines can handle.



While your asking Marlboro for some cash why not ask them how they felt about spending all that money helping Ducati develop the BS tyre so they could beat Rossi, Yamaha and Honda who had ONS Michelins only to have it ripped away from them as soon as they were successful. If you recall and if it fits your Fox News version of facts they then said that they would switch to Michelin if BS were forced to give the tyres they spent money developing were given to the opposition. Can't have that now better go control tyre. What message does this send to sponsors who want to spend big money sponsoring a team to beat the establishment manipulated agenda. What did Marlboro do? Thats right they said if we can't beat them then we'll join them.
 
Great post, just to let you know though these guys don't like facts, they prefer opinions similar to their own........you have summed it up well. Probably the most international grid since the early 90's.

I presume the real number is 10 italian/spanish riders out of 17 as has been pointed out unless randy has had himself cloned perhaps to cope with the playboy bunnies, and if so this is a legitimate concern.



My problem is not rossi but the other 9, who are mostly midget 125 riders, for whom the formula seems to have been devised or who are the type of riders who fit the formula, one type of rider and style of riding, entry to the show much facilitated by being a junior rider in spain in particular etc. I guess having made this argument I should appreciate simoncelli more than I do.
 
Rossi himself has not harmed the sport but the politics and narrow mindedness that has purposely put Rossi at the centre of the circus has. You mention that viewership has increased, well this might be the case but they don't tune in to watch MotoGP, tell me who do the views turn on to watch? Rossi of course. Why? Because MotoGP has been made to be all about Rossi.



Rossi is not struggling to get sponsors or money flowing into his bank account but Rossi is not the sport. The sport needs a full grid of riders on competitive bikes that have a fair shot at success to grow. More money in Rossi's pocket does not facilitate this. Once again I do not suggest even for a second that this is Rossi's fault. The fault lies with Dorna who have in their short sightedness sort to milk the Rossi phenomenon for all it is worth. Whilst they were doing this they failed to promote, strengthen and build the MotoGP brand.



What will happen in 2013 when Rossi has retired and all of his sponsors disappear along with all of his personal fans?



Woody, you know as much about the sport as almost anyone on here so your comment about those running at the back doing so due to a half arsed effort is below you. You know that there are only a few bikes that are capable of or allowed to run at the front. This is the other reason why there is no sponsorship once you drop below the front 4-6 bikes/riders. The sport is so heavily manipulated that there is no point in sponsoring one of the 'other' bikes as as you said no one is watching.



Yes I was probably a little harsh regarding the backmarkers however I do believe that to some degree, you make your own luck in Motogp and some people that race Motogp never win for more reasons than they are simply not on a very good package. Look at Rossi v Edwards when they were teammates both in Motogp and the 8 hour races. While Edwards can ride out of sight of everyone on this site I don't think he has that last 1% to win. Dovi will always be the bridesmaid in my opinion. The only reason he won the race he did in 2009 was because the other race leaders fell off. Dovi is on one of the best packages at the moment and sure he is up towards the front of the field (as was Edwards when Rossi's teammate) but he never comes out on top except for that one occasion when his competitors fell off.



I'd be curious to know what the riders were earning when Mick Doohan was racing? I tried to find out but failed. I'm sure that the entire field on average is paid a lot more now than in those days and the difference would be down to a lot more than just inflation.
 
What is interesting Woody is the salary of MotoGP riders compared to F1 drivers. Below is 2010 salaries for both fields:



1. Valentino Rossi : from 12 to 15 million Euro



2. Jorge Lorenzo: from 4 to 7 million Euro



3. Casey Stoner: from 5 to 7 million Euro



4. Dani Pedrosa: from 3 to 4 million Euro



5. Andrea Dovizioso: from 1.5 to 2 million Euro



6. Marco Simoncelli: from 1.5 to 2 million Euro



7. Loris Capirossi: 1.5 million Euro



8. Ben Spies: from 1 to 2 million Euro



9. Alvaro Bautista: 1 million Euro



10. Randy De Puniet: from 500 thousand Euro to 1.2 million (if he goes to Suzuki)



11. Marco Melandri: 500 thousand Euro



12. Mika Kallio: 350 thousand Euro



13. Colin Edwards: 250 thousand Euro



14. Aleix Espargaro: 250 thousand Euro



1 Fernando Alonso, Ferrari - €30 million

2 Lewis Hamilton, McLaren - €16 million

= Kimi Räikkönen, Ferrari - €16 million

4 Felipe Massa, Ferrari - €14 million

5 Jenson Button, McLaren - €9 million

6 Michael Schumacher, Mercedes - €8 million

= Nico Rosberg, Mercedes - €8 million

8 Robert Kubica, Renault - €7.5 million

9 Rubens Barrichello, Williams - €5.5 million

10 Mark Webber, Red Bull - €4.2 million

11 Jarno Trulli, Lotus - €3 million

12 Sebastian Vettel, Red Bull - €2 million

= Heikki Kovalainen, Lotus - €2 million

14 Timo Glock, Virgin - €1 million

15 Nico Hülkenberg, Williams – €700,000

16 Pedro de la Rosa, Sauber – €500,000

= Kamui Kobayashi, Sauber – €500,000

18 Vitaly Petrov, Renault – €400,000

= Sébastien Buemi, Toro Rosso – €400,000

= Jaime Alguersuari, Toro Rosso – €400,000

21 Adrian Sutil, Force India – €200,000

= Vitantonio Liuzzi, Force India – €200,000

= Lucas di Grassi, Virgin – €200,000

24 Bruno Senna, Hispania – €150,000





You can see that MotoGP pales in comparison to F1. Yet the technical regulations before this year were more ...... up in F1 then they have ever been in MotoGP but if you believe Talpa it is regulations that effect sponsorship and therefore earnings. Second place on the MotoGP grid just scrapes in at about 10th place on an F1 grid.



Some facts:

Rossi gets 37% of the MotoGP fields 32,500,000 euro salary (based on minimum salary range)

Alonso gets 23% of the F1 fields 126,850,000 euro salary
 
& There was me thinking that it was tabacco advertising being banned in various countries that had ripped millions of (insert your currency here) out of all worldwide sports. A contribution that was so high that they have yet to find a replacement that makes sufficent revenue to replace it.



EDIT: & Yay for me for confusing Rossano Brazzi with Luca Brasi for all of 10 minutes.
 
I presume the real number is 10 italian/spanish riders out of 17 as has been pointed out unless randy has had himself cloned perhaps to cope with the playboy bunnies, and if so this is a legitimate concern.



My problem is not rossi but the other 9, who are mostly midget 125 riders, for whom the formula seems to have been devised or who are the type of riders who fit the formula, one type of rider and style of riding, entry to the show much facilitated by being a junior rider in spain in particular etc. I guess having made this argument I should appreciate simoncelli more than I do.

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Michael does a funny. Hahaha
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Btw, yes, more to the point 10 of 17 is a more significant statistic.



About the 125 riders. Honestly, when I see them I feel sorry for them a bit. They look so emaciated. They really are like jockeys more than we think, as I've had personal friends in the horse racing business. They purge to make weight and starve themselves constantly. They have health problems that are not easily evident. The lack of nutrition stunts their growth. I see some of the same signs on these 125/250 riders.
 
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Michael does a funny. Hahaha
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Btw, yes, more to the point 10 of 17 is a more significant statistic.



About the 125 riders. Honestly, when I see them I feel sorry for them a bit. They look so emaciated. They really are like jockeys more than we think, as I've had personal friends in the horse racing business. They purge to make weight and starve themselves constantly. They have health problems that are not easily evident. The lack of nutrition stunts their growth. I see some of the same signs on these 125/250 riders.



Poor nutrition via various forms of starvation - might very well be contributing to Hayden's seemingly diminished IQ as mentioned

by your buddy at Yamaha. Yah know I love Nicky - but when watching him in interviews I've commented to my wife that since the

advent of the 800s and his concurrent weight loss - that Hayden has taken on the demeanor of a kid who's got lead paint around

the house. Personally - I think homeboy needs to take on some animal protein to get back his edge. A little sushi once a week wouldn't

kill him.
 
Poor nutrition via various forms of starvation - might very well be contributing to Hayden's seemingly diminished IQ as mentioned

by your buddy at Yamaha. Yah know I love Nicky - but when watching him in interviews I've commented to my wife that since the

advent of the 800s and his concurrent weight loss - that Hayden has taken on the demeanor of a kid who's got lead paint around

the house. Personally - I think homeboy needs to take on some animal protein to get back his edge. A little sushi once a week wouldn't

kill him.

He doesn't work for Yamaha. He's involved with an outfit in M2 (Moto2) and has done AMA work. He just knows the American dude now working for Rossi.



Agree about Nicky. He's emaciated himself. Maybe in interview hes just thinking, I could really use a steak instead of concentrating on the question. The thing is that Nicky has a hillbilly way of communicating. Plus he’s not highly educated, considering his childhood spent at the track.
 
F1 is commercially much more successful than motogp, being cars it is more mainstream.





Rather Obvious isn't it, to most bar Mentally incapable, The only time he brings facts they are completely irrelevant
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F1 has more many times the profile of Motogp, someone tell Mental.



No doubt he's trying to point out the obvious gap to Rossi, however I do recall MSchuie up with tiger on around 90-100 million a year in his prime at Ferrari, much more than current top dogs. With more Tobacco $ and less tech reg......thats the comparison which should be made.
 
Rather Obvious isn't it, to most bar Mentally incapable, The only time he brings facts they are completely irrelevant
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Wai wait, are you the same person that applauded the newbie who listed all the Rossi championships, including the one he got at 3 years old? Oh yeah Talps, you really do have an eye for relevance.
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rcramie' date='13 December 2010 - 02:46 PM' timestamp='1292280397' post='262649 said:
1992: Regional Minimoto Champion

1991: 4th – Italian Junior Go-Kart Championship

1990: Regional Go-Kart Championship – 9 wins

1989: First Go-Kart Race





Great post, just to let you know though these guys don't like facts, they prefer opinions similar to their own........you have summed it up well.
 
Rather Obvious isn't it, to most bar Mentally incapable, The only time he brings facts they are completely irrelevant
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F1 has more many times the profile of Motogp, someone tell Mental.



No doubt he's trying to point out the obvious gap to Rossi, however I do recall MSchuie up with tiger on around 90-100 million a year in his prime at Ferrari, much more than current top dogs. With more Tobacco $ and less tech reg......thats the comparison which should be made.



But F1 doesn't have Rossi or a Rossi like figure yet they are still commercially viable. Go figure.



Of course I know there is a huge gap between MotoGP and F1. It was kinda the point of my post.



Of course Schumacher was huge but that was a few years ago now and in many respects he was the villain rather than the hero. If I recall his dominance and the seeming bias towards Ferrari was a turn off to a lot of people.



Where I think F1 has been more successful than MotoGP is in their ability to market F1. Even when the racing was terrible and they had the big central figure their marketing was not about the Schumacher Brand it was about the F1 Brand.
 
What is interesting Woody is the salary of MotoGP riders compared to F1 drivers. Below is 2010 salaries for both fields:



1. Valentino Rossi : from 12 to 15 million Euro



2. Jorge Lorenzo: from 4 to 7 million Euro



3. Casey Stoner: from 5 to 7 million Euro



4. Dani Pedrosa: from 3 to 4 million Euro



5. Andrea Dovizioso: from 1.5 to 2 million Euro



6. Marco Simoncelli: from 1.5 to 2 million Euro



7. Loris Capirossi: 1.5 million Euro



8. Ben Spies: from 1 to 2 million Euro



9. Alvaro Bautista: 1 million Euro



10. Randy De Puniet: from 500 thousand Euro to 1.2 million (if he goes to Suzuki)



11. Marco Melandri: 500 thousand Euro



12. Mika Kallio: 350 thousand Euro



13. Colin Edwards: 250 thousand Euro



14. Aleix Espargaro: 250 thousand Euro



1 Fernando Alonso, Ferrari - €30 million

2 Lewis Hamilton, McLaren - €16 million

= Kimi Räikkönen, Ferrari - €16 million

4 Felipe Massa, Ferrari - €14 million

5 Jenson Button, McLaren - €9 million

6 Michael Schumacher, Mercedes - €8 million

= Nico Rosberg, Mercedes - €8 million

8 Robert Kubica, Renault - €7.5 million

9 Rubens Barrichello, Williams - €5.5 million

10 Mark Webber, Red Bull - €4.2 million

11 Jarno Trulli, Lotus - €3 million

12 Sebastian Vettel, Red Bull - €2 million

= Heikki Kovalainen, Lotus - €2 million

14 Timo Glock, Virgin - €1 million

15 Nico Hülkenberg, Williams – €700,000

16 Pedro de la Rosa, Sauber – €500,000

= Kamui Kobayashi, Sauber – €500,000

18 Vitaly Petrov, Renault – €400,000

= Sébastien Buemi, Toro Rosso – €400,000

= Jaime Alguersuari, Toro Rosso – €400,000

21 Adrian Sutil, Force India – €200,000

= Vitantonio Liuzzi, Force India – €200,000

= Lucas di Grassi, Virgin – €200,000

24 Bruno Senna, Hispania – €150,000





You can see that MotoGP pales in comparison to F1. Yet the technical regulations before this year were more ...... up in F1 then they have ever been in MotoGP but if you believe Talpa it is regulations that effect sponsorship and therefore earnings. Second place on the MotoGP grid just scrapes in at about 10th place on an F1 grid.



Some facts:

Rossi gets 37% of the MotoGP fields 32,500,000 euro salary (based on minimum salary range)

Alonso gets 23% of the F1 fields 126,850,000 euro salary



Yes that is interesting however a direct comparison of Rossi's take to Alonso's take doesn't take into account that there are only 14 riders in your Motogp (what about Bautista, Aoyama and Barbara) vs the 24 in the F1 field. This means that the Motogp pie must spread around a lot fewer riders than the F1 pie must be spread. Based on the numbers that you have provided, on average each rider gets 7.14% of the Motogp pie and in F1, 4.17%.



To compare the two fields in relation to the average slice of pie each rider gets, we see the following:



VR 5.19 times the average

JL 1.73 times the average

CS 2.16 times the average

DP 1.30 times the average

AD 0.655 times the pie and so on.



Compare this with F1, and we see

Alonso 5.54 times the average

Hamilton 2.96 times the average

Raikkonen 2.96 times the average

Massa 2.59 times the average

Button 1.66 times the average



This shows that the top 5 F1 drivers receive a greater slice of the pie in comparison to their competitors than the top 5 Motogp riders. What the numbers also show is that if you are not an alien (4 riders only), you will be paid less than average in Motogp whereas in F1 there are 9 riders who are paid more than average.



Interestingly, the bottom end of F1 get a far smaller piece of the pie than the bottom end of Motogp.



Tells a story however I don't believe that it shows that Motogp stacks its wages towards one rider, if anything, it is the aliens which makes sense. The big issue is that the size of the pie is so much smaller but as Tom said, motorcycle racing is a niche sport rather than mainstream.



These numbers show that Alonso is the Rossi of F1 and takes a greater slice of the pie when you take into account the field size.



The other thing to note is that if the three riders I mentioned above come into the numbers, the Motogp average will drop, all riders take in comparison to the average will increase - whether that puts VR ahead of Alonso I don't know however they will be comparable.
 
.before the 800s ... "GP" bikes were big scary motorcycles..



I just watched Phillip Island 1999 & 2000 GPs. Highly recommend.



Btw Curve, Rossi podiums in one of them, so u wont b needing to put peanut butter on ur tool and calling ur dog.
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But F1 doesn't have Rossi or a Rossi like figure yet they are still commercially viable. Go figure.



Of course I know there is a huge gap between MotoGP and F1. It was kinda the point of my post.



Of course Schumacher was huge but that was a few years ago now and in many respects he was the villain rather than the hero. If I recall his dominance and the seeming bias towards Ferrari was a turn off to a lot of people.



Where I think F1 has been more successful than MotoGP is in their ability to market F1. Even when the racing was terrible and they had the big central figure their marketing was not about the Schumacher Brand it was about the F1 Brand.



This is the point I was making with the NBA. During the 90's they sold Jordan hard and forgot to sell the game. When the new crop of stars that came up after Jordan weren't as marketable (read: they are unlikeable, self important duchebags) the NBA has found itself in trouble.



MotoGP appears to be doing the same thing with Rossi. He is an easy sell so the just ran with it, the problem is when he is gone so are all the "bobbers" if the racing isn't entertaining. I think they need to encourage a more competitive field. It seems the manufactures are really shooting themselves in the foot there.



And I agree with the "loss of tobaco money is hurting". That must be huge as well.
 

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