Noyes article

Jumkie · Aug 25, 2010

Talpa said:
I thought Noyes didn't like Rossi either?? What kind of Bopper does it make him then? He only pointed out the facts, and from a man who's seen a race or two his opinions are valid.

I won't get into the stoner thing as it's all been said, but the Spanish Cup is obviously concerning many. It could also be said that the Rossi/Biaggi days made it the Italian Cup and the Doohan Days etc......

The larger problem now is Spains dominance in the lower classes as well.

I have to disagree that Jorges transition to the premier class was the smoothest/successful of the aliens though....I think Noyes may have had a few Tequilas prior to penning this one.....

Uhm, ok, fair enuf. I got on Noyes because of his blatant Stoner bashing, not because he said anything about Rossi (as I said above, I use the term Bopper because its almost always coupled with Stoner bashing, which I thought he did). I'm not sure where you got the "he doesn't like Rossi" part. Yes, his opinion is valid, as much as yours and mine. No argument, but as a journo, the idea is to try and fight your own inclination and be level handed, something he didn't do in this article. Tell me something, Talps, honestly, what would be the reaction had some prominent figure (or any "journalist") said that Rossi's lack of pace recently was due to his heart being at Ducati, so wasn't really trying, a type of phoning it in? I'd think they would have lynch him from nearest tree (to borrow from a common cliché.) So he was simply trying to pad his own inclinations about Stoner by quoting some critical comment from Burgess & Gardner (who I think were both out of line.)

When Noyes commented on the mistake at Laguna when they accidently played the Italian anthem is another issue I have with this article. He's playing it up as if it was something more. I've resisted the urge in commenting on this since I thought it was so silly. Really now, this mistake was probably done by some minimum wage worker, maybe even a volunteer, who couldn't distinguish or mis-read the queue. It could have happened to anyone, especially if the kid wasn't paying attention. But Noyes tries to make something out of nothing to make another point, whatever I say.

About Lorenzo. Uhm, Lorenzo got pole his first MotoGP qual then came in second during the race. He gets pole again the next race and podiums, then his third MotoGP race ever, he gets pole and wins! I'm not sure what you disagree with since Lorenzo not having a smooth transition, I’d say it was stellar. He did have an immediate impact and pace when he came into the premier class. Sure he crashed a few times, but he also got a win and poles, several podiums, so I'd say he made a fairly successful transition. The dude is leading the points by a mile now (some of it cuz Rossi's mishap, sure) but still, getting a title your third year in the class with the big boys…uhm, yeah I’d call that a pretty good transition dude.

But I agree with Noyes having a few shot of tequila, and I'd say a splif to boot.

Jumkie · Aug 25, 2010

BarryMachine said:
Well the problem here is that his "facts" get called into question somewhat, and he puts his own spin, Bopper slanted, on what are otherwise just harmless comments by "other parties". Though it should be said, he would be writing to please a very large large gullible and oportunistic market

I note that you believe every word he said, lapped it right up.

I'm not sure what "facts" you are talking about. I'm not questioning so much his facts, as I am his needless criticism of Stoner (which really seemed irrelevant to the article). Not sure why you say the quotes he used you would consider "harmless" either. Burgess was out of line in questioning Stoner integrity and Gardner saying his development skill is questionable is "harmful" and I'll add 'spiteful' (for what reason I don't know).

Burgess said in a British column, “the way he is riding it looks like he is already on the Honda payroll.”

Shame on you Burgess. Unseemly, sounds something out of Albert Puig's textbook. (Honestly, I almost feel like this might have been a misquote, Jerry Burgess doesn't strike me as the type of man to say .... like this. He even looks like a mild level-headed dude. Kinda weird he would say something so irresponsible).

Gardner, ..., suspects Stoner's problems have come about due to a lack of developmental skills.

Well I question Gardner's physician skills, because he has obviously misdiagnosed Wayne's Alzheimer’s disease.

Gecko Hunter · Aug 25, 2010

Jumkie said:
.... Gardner.

On your second point, what do you mean not much evidence of development? People like to have it both ways regarding Stoner's "development" either being lacking or competent. So Rossi told us (and the world really since it was in his autobio) that Ducati's culture was a bit like Honda, in that its first the engineers that develop the bike and the rider's input can go .... himself, right? Or did I imagine this, perhaps another idea I got from area 51? Does it really matter when Burgess said this? He said it, and it was lame, about as lame as it coming from Alberto Puig's mouth. But when Stoner goes there and wins races for two years straight (even after his illness) and we are to believe he has no development skill? Wait, did something change in MotoGP, I thought Hayate Kawasaki was the only bike that didn't get developed over the season. Perhaps we can argue that the 07 bike was not developed by Stoner in its initial stages, but surely it was developed throughout the year. In the GP game, if your are not improving and developing, you are going backward. So if we are to believe that the Ducati did not get developed over 2 years of Stoner winning on it, then perhaps the bike is an Emasculate Conception?! Lets just say for the sake of argument he didn’t develop the 07 bike the entire year, then how does Noyes and Gardner & Hates Inc. explain Casey winning 10 more races the following two year? Surely he doesn’t know how do develop, eh? (sarcasm) While Stoner worked and developed the screamer, he won a total of 20 races, they go to a conventional bike, that is Yamahized it, and the dude can’t push it. If anybody has moved their heart, it’s Ducati, as there bike is now riding like they are on Rossi’s payroll. (How is that for perspective Mr. Burgess?, you ....). Of course the Stoner haters (of which it appears Noyes & Gardner are) would like us to believe Stoner doesn't know how to develop, but its only when they moved away from his personal winning formula did he start to suffer, odd? No, not to the blind.

So Stoner doesn’t know how to develop, so which is it, do we believe Rossi whos said Ducati’s culture does not care about rider input toward development or are we to believe Stoner’s 20 wins over three years has zero development from Stoner?

BTW, 6 wins and 9 podiums since Laguna 08 on a 3rd tier bike behind Yamaha & Honda. Oh, and if we are to believe the Boppers that the secret sabotaging of Rossi's Yamaha has transformed it into a top 5 bike, then how much more is Stoner's win's worth?) According to Noyes, you'd think Stoner evaporated from planet earth after Laguna 08. ....'em.

Couldn't have said it better myself. +1

Cheers

The Gecko Hunter

Gaz · Aug 26, 2010

Jum, gotta agree - WG should go and partake in a wire brush enema as really, he has had his day in the limelight and should now just fade gracefully like most before him.

Now I see again that the 'ability' or lack thereof of Stoner in term s of development has yet again been raised and I for one have to say again that it is NOT Stoner's job to develop a bike that all can ride well. It is Stoner's job to develop a bike that he can ride fast.

So, I ask, can he develop a bike.

Look at this years results and the answer would appear to be YES.

Year starts, he is fast but suffers front end issues and crashes (Hayden suffers similar type of crashes in practice). Stoner reverts to previous model forks (amongst other changes/attempts) and within a few races is back beating his team-mate and producing consistent fast time, just not as fast as other bikes/riders.

Now, my thinking is that something MUST have changed and that the likely source of the change was Stoner (given he was reported to have requested the forks etc) and as such, that is development, or at least to me it is.

Now, if Hayden is dropping back that is no reflection on Stoner (nor in reality on Hayden) but may well indicate that the problem lay within Ducati itself who cannot cope with the demands of two riders where those demands are diametrically opposed. W

Who knows, just playing and hypothesising (gee, big word - damn that hurt to some up with)

All have fun.

Gaz

michaelm · Aug 26, 2010

Jumkie said:
If anybody has moved their heart, it’s Ducati, as there bike is now riding like they are on Rossi’s payroll. (How is that for perspective Mr. Burgess?, you ....). Of course the Stoner haters (of which it appears Noyes & Gardner are) would like us to believe Stoner doesn't know how to develop, but its only when they moved away from his personal winning formula did he start to suffer, odd? No, not to the blind.

Good line. If it is considered that burgess is just being factual with his remark, there is at least as much evidence (arguably more) for your converse position.

baturro · Aug 26, 2010

Hey there Jumkie. As a Spanish/American, or American/Spaniard, I was a bit disapointed and embarassed in the anthem screw up. I understand that it was more than likely an honest mistake, but a mistake that really shouldn´t happen. Just think if Nicky had won in Spain and instead of playing the Star Spangled Banner, the Spanish Marcha Real was played, and Pedrosa second on the podium what the banter on this forum would have been! Again, I understand it´s a mistake, but what, after lap 2 the result was decided, giving 40 min to que up the correct anthem... But it´ll just be an anectdote at the end of the season.

And as far as the Spanish domination in the lower classes, I´m sure Dorna would have no problem fielding 5 American riders in 125 or GP2 as long as they are sponsored and well backed, same goes for England. Repsol, Bancaja, Telefonica, Fortuna (past) are all big Spanish brands, and it is completely understandable that they rather have Spanish riders on their payrole. There is no stopping ATT, Verizon, Wells Fargo, Ford, Texaco from sponsoring a team or two. Imagine team Texaco, with Spies and Edwards instead of Tec3. BP probably has no money to be throwing at bikes right now..

L8Braker · Aug 26, 2010

I don't think Stoner gives a .... if he can develop a bike not, he strikes me as a guy who needs just a few things to work in order to go fast, I believe feedback from the front is one of those few things. Everyone can slag off on Stoner all they want but the boy can ride beyond the limits all race long. The marriage of Stoner and Hayden didn't work because their ridings styles even though dirt track based just didn't seem to mesh. Honestly and this is just my opinion I don't think Stoner's riding style matches anyone's, I believe even Spies mentioned once that he can see what every other rider in MotoGP is doing to be fast, but he can't figure out what Stoner is doing. I believe he will be fast right out of the box next year on the Honda and Lorenzo had better be prepared for battle.

Talpa · Aug 26, 2010

Jumkie said:
Uhm, ok, fair enuf. I got on Noyes because of his blatant Stoner bashing, not because he said anything about Rossi (as I said above, I use the term Bopper because its almost always coupled with Stoner bashing, which I thought he did). I'm not sure where you got the "he doesn't like Rossi" part. Yes, his opinion is valid, as much as yours and mine. No argument, but as a journo, the idea is to try and fight your own inclination and be level handed, something he didn't do in this article. Tell me something, Talps, honestly, what would be the reaction had some prominent figure (or any "journalist") said that Rossi's lack of pace recently was due to his heart being at Ducati, so wasn't really trying, a type of phoning it in? I'd think they would have lynch him from nearest tree (to borrow from a common cliché.) So he was simply trying to pad his own inclinations about Stoner by quoting some critical comment from Burgess & Gardner (who I think were both out of line.)

When Noyes commented on the mistake at Laguna when they accidently played the Italian anthem is another issue I have with this article. He's playing it up as if it was something more. I've resisted the urge in commenting on this since I thought it was so silly. Really now, this mistake was probably done by some minimum wage worker, maybe even a volunteer, who couldn't distinguish or mis-read the queue. It could have happened to anyone, especially if the kid wasn't paying attention. But Noyes tries to make something out of nothing to make another point, whatever I say.

About Lorenzo. Uhm, Lorenzo got pole his first MotoGP qual then came in second during the race. He gets pole again the next race and podiums, then his third MotoGP race ever, he gets pole and wins! I'm not sure what you disagree with since Lorenzo not having a smooth transition, I’d say it was stellar. He did have an immediate impact and pace when he came into the premier class. Sure he crashed a few times, but he also got a win and poles, several podiums, so I'd say he made a fairly successful transition. The dude is leading the points by a mile now (some of it cuz Rossi's mishap, sure) but still, getting a title your third year in the class with the big boys…uhm, yeah I’d call that a pretty good transition dude.

But I agree with Noyes having a few shot of tequila, and I'd say a splif to boot.

Great Post, my point with Lorenzo is while he did start Ok, his crashs were epic in 2008-2009 and now third year in looking to take the title with serious injuries to his prime competition. Both Rossi and Stoner had a Title in their second year and Pedders had a few wins with some very strong podiums in 2006. So I think it was a little overstated no doubt due to the Slammers ingested prior!

The Stoner thing may be a little more complex (as usual). I believe his pace, or lack of compared to JL and Pedders, is due to a combination of his switch to Honda and his front-end problems with the duck. Its quite noticeable in recent races when CS has a few front end moments he just gives up and rides around to finish, which is completely understandable considering his already high crash rate this year. This can be easily misconstrued as 'On the Honda Payroll' already, but knowing that his future is not on the Duck, it would be harder to continually push that extra 10-tenths.

The same thing can also be said for Rossi, but as usual, the stars have aligned for VR and he just happens to be recovering from serious injuries which gives him a very good excuse. And no-one but him and JB really know how much it is affecting his pace-but I would imagine constantly getting those extra tenths out of these 800's would require full fitness. Also Rossi came back early-when it wasn't really required or advised, IMO he did this this more for himself and his fans than Yamaha, but it does give him the moral high-ground if ever accused of 'Being on the Ducati' payroll.

In saying that, I also believe that these guys are so competitive that accusations like this are a little absurd, and given the chance, they will push for the win on any bike during a cyclone if necessary.....!!!.

Noyes article

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