Noyes article

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Sad. But I disagree that Spanish riders dominate from the new electronics, they dominate because Spanish Dorna has stacked the field. Make something as difficult as they have for one group to use the farm system and we are now suppose to believe that its simply a shift without design? Please, tell that to the stupid people, they will surely believe it.



Noyes' cheapshot critic of Stoner says more about him than Casey. No mention that Ducati is a lump of .... but rather its Stoner's fault thanks to his chickenshit use of ........ critics from Burgess & Gardner (a man who like Mladin, says stupid .... in an attempt to stay relevant). Noyes says that Stoner wasn't the same after Laguna 08, trying to project his own Bopperism, yet then tells us Stoner came back, gets a 2nd, 2 straight up dominate wins, and probably would have won Valencia had that freak crash not occured (BTW, its not the first time that has happened, as it also happened to Lorenzo, that is, crashing on a warm up lap). So Casey's never been the same, but when he came back he all but dominated the final part of the season? Uhm, what are you smoking Noyes? Why does Honda get a pass when it doesn't win, as it did at the beginning of the season, but Ducati's woes are strictly Stoner's fault? ....... Boppers, they're everywhere.
 
Jumkie said:
Sad. But I disagree that Spanish riders dominate from the new electronics, they dominate because Spanish Dorna has stacked the field. Make something as difficult as they have for one group to use the farm system and we are now suppose to believe that its simply a shift without design? Please, tell that to the stupid people, they will surely believe it.



Noyes' cheapshot critic of Stoner says more about him than Casey. No mention that Ducati is a lump of .... but rather its Stoner's fault thanks to his chickenshit use of ........ critics from Burgess & Gardner (a man who like Mladin, says stupid .... in an attempt to stay relevant). Why does Honda get a pass when it doesn't win, as it did at the beginning of the season, but Ducati's woes are strictly Stoner's fault? ....... Boppers, they're everywhere.
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Given wayne thought mick doohan was not really in his (wayne's) class, his credibility where australian riders are concerned is not high .



I don't know when jerry burgess made this remark, but unless it was some time ago when he and valentino were both still tight with yamaha and in contention with casey stoner for the world championship (ie not this year at least) it is not the comment of a man going to hrc to be casey stoner's crew chief as some have speculated.



I have to agree there is not much evidence that stoner has development ability, but there is also some evidence that the culture hitherto at ducati did not necessarily involve their gp riders in development much. I strongly doubt he had much if any involvement in the decision to go the carbon fibre way. There is certainly precedent for ducati going from a good bike one year to a dud bike the next in the 990 era without any assistance from casey stoner.



It has been argued elsewhere that the ducati gp 10 is fine and just needs valentino to tweak it. This may be so, and if anyone can sort it he is the man. However as it stands no other team has had a successful carbon-fibre bike, and I am not aware any other team has seriously considered it, as opposed to the 2003 honda and 2004 yamaha which were not very dissimilar with the same chassis design in principle. .
 
L8Braker said:
Another good read from Mr. Noyes. Interesting comments from Burgess and Gardner about Stoner.



http://moto-racing.speedtv.com/article/motogp-noyes-notebook-an-american-winner/P1
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That guy is a bit strange, has he counted the wins Stoner has had since Laguna Seca 08?
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Its almost like he thinks the world revolves around Laguna
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And is Burgess's ( supposed ) comments about Stoner that critical ?
 
michaelm said:
Given wayne thought mick doohan was not really in his (wayne's) class, his credibility where australian riders are concerned is not high .



I don't know when jerry burgess made this remark, but unless it was some time ago when he and valentino were both still tight with yamaha and in contention with casey stoner for the world championship (ie not this year at least) it is not the comment of a man going to hrc to be casey stoner's crew chief as some have speculated.



I have to agree there is not much evidence that stoner has development ability, but there is also some evidence that the culture hitherto at ducati did not necessarily involve their gp riders in development much. I strongly doubt he had much if any involvement in the decision to go the carbon fibre way.
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.... Gardner.



On your second point, what do you mean not much evidence of development? People like to have it both ways regarding Stoner's "development" either being lacking or competent. So Rossi told us (and the world really since it was in his autobio) that Ducati's culture was a bit like Honda, in that its first the engineers that develop the bike and the rider's input can go .... himself, right? Or did I imagine this, perhaps another idea I got from area 51? Does it really matter when Burgess said this? He said it, and it was lame, about as lame as it coming from Alberto Puig's mouth. But when Stoner goes there and wins races for two years straight (even after his illness) and we are to believe he has no development skill? Wait, did something change in MotoGP, I thought Hayate Kawasaki was the only bike that didn't get developed over the season. Perhaps we can argue that the 07 bike was not developed by Stoner in its initial stages, but surely it was developed throughout the year. In the GP game, if your are not improving and developing, you are going backward. So if we are to believe that the Ducati did not get developed over 2 years of Stoner winning on it, then perhaps the bike is an Emasculate Conception?! Lets just say for the sake of argument he didn’t develop the 07 bike the entire year, then how does Noyes and Gardner & Hates Inc. explain Casey winning 10 more races the following two year? Surely he doesn’t know how do develop, eh? (sarcasm) While Stoner worked and developed the screamer, he won a total of 20 races, they go to a conventional bike, that is Yamahized it, and the dude can’t push it. If anybody has moved their heart, it’s Ducati, as there bike is now riding like they are on Rossi’s payroll. (How is that for perspective Mr. Burgess?, you ....). Of course the Stoner haters (of which it appears Noyes & Gardner are) would like us to believe Stoner doesn't know how to develop, but its only when they moved away from his personal winning formula did he start to suffer, odd? No, not to the blind.



So Stoner doesn’t know how to develop, so which is it, do we believe Rossi whos said Ducati’s culture does not care about rider input toward development or are we to believe Stoner’s 20 wins over three years has zero development from Stoner?



BTW, 6 wins and 9 podiums since Laguna 08 on a 3rd tier bike behind Yamaha & Honda. Oh, and if we are to believe the Boppers that the secret sabotaging of Rossi's Yamaha has transformed it into a top 5 bike, then how much more is Stoner's win's worth?) According to Noyes, you'd think Stoner evaporated from planet earth after Laguna 08. ....'em.
 
Jumkie said:
.... Gardner.



On your second point, what do you mean not much evidence of development? People like to have it both ways regarding Stoner's .......................................................................................



According to Noyes, you'd think Stoner evaporated from planet earth after Laguna 08. ....'em.
Click to expand...



Gee and here was I wondering if I had said the wrong thing about Noyes thinking the world revolved around Laguna! ................. you really don't like Noyes !! do you ?
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Must admit I never get anything out of his articles, they do seem jst a summation of some of the "stuff" that may have gone down in the past month. There's no answers in there
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, just rehash.
 
BarryMachine said:
Gee and here was I wondering if I had said the wrong thing about Noyes thinking the world revolved around Laguna! ................. you really don't like Noyes !! do you ?
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Must admit I never get anything out of his articles, they do seem jst a summation of some of the "stuff" that may have gone down in the past month. There's no answers in there
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, just rehash.
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I like Noyes. He does say some good stuff, just this little part about his take on Stoner was a bit much, so I'm calling him and the fools he quoted out on it (not that they give a .... what I say anyway). Noyes doesn't ever hide his Bopperism (in this case I use the term because Bopperism has attached an extension of Stoner hate).. If your a journo, I say don't sound like some .... on a forum like us, I want to read some higher level .... with a bit of insight and level handedness. For the most part, the article was just spiting out stats, I could have done the same, no big deal, but when he got into his personal editorial, then that's the part that is chicken ..... I like his kid even more, kids got heart and determination.
 
Very interesting points, that's why I like reading everyone's thoughts on articles like these. I really don't have anywhere else to go for MotoGP speak, I think I'm the only dude in North Carolina that even watches it....now if I want conversation about NASCAR I can talk to the guy standing on the corner begging for money.
 
Jumkie said:
(in this case I use the term because Bopperism has attached an extension of Stoner hate)..
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Thats as I saw it ..... he really likes put a negative "bent" on things Stoner ....... I mean ...... so what if Burgess said that ( if he did in the form Noyes portrayes it
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)? it wasn't a criticism of Stoner
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Gee if Burgess said " I wished Casey a merry Xmas" would Noyes say thats a criticism
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I guess you know Noyes better, we don't have uch exposure to him here, so maybe he is a bit of a bopper? you think" ( would be suicide as a journo here to appear anything but impartial, even though you can tell most are happy when Stoner wins
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)



Must admit our journos arent that bad here, they rarely criticise a rider, they will discuss others criticisms but not really profer a bias. Mind you they are usually too busy putting out the fires that Gardner has started, within GP
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L8Braker said:
Very interesting points, that's why I like reading everyone's thoughts on articles like these. I really don't have anywhere else to go for MotoGP speak, I think I'm the only dude in North Carolina that even watches it....now if I want conversation about NASCAR I can talk to the guy standing on the corner begging for money.
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Mdub isn't from your parts of town? I thought you guys were buds. (Or did he just name drop you for some street cred?)
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I'm being a bit harsh on Noyes (I'm sure he can take it though, since he is willing to dish it out). Its 1:20AM in Europe (well at least in the UK), so I'm sure you will get another take once the Boppers wake up and react to my post (though the one that lives in Oz may chime in soon).
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Though I hope they can get past my calling Noyes out on the carpet using the "Bopper" euphemism and tell us what they really think. But I can probably imagine it. But we'll see.
 
Nah, I just told Mdub about this site from a BMX racing forum. In one of his posts there he mentioned he was a huge Rossi fan so I sent him a PM and the rest is history...the site has never been the same...
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edit this is my 999th post, I'm going to save 1000 for tomorrow on my birthday, can't think of a better way to celebrate my 41st!
 
Jumkie said:
.... Gardner.



On your second point, what do you mean not much evidence of development? People like to have it both ways regarding Stoner's "development" either being lacking or competent. So Rossi told us (and the world really since it was in his autobio) that Ducati's culture was a bit like Honda, in that its first the engineers that develop the bike and the rider's input can go .... himself, right? Or did I imagine this, perhaps another idea I got from area 51? Does it really matter when Burgess said this? He said it, and it was lame, about as lame as it coming from Alberto Puig's mouth. But when Stoner goes there and wins races for two years straight (even after his illness) and we are to believe he has no development skill? Wait, did something change in MotoGP, I thought Hayate Kawasaki was the only bike that didn't get developed over the season. Perhaps we can argue that the 07 bike was not developed by Stoner in its initial stages, but surely it was developed throughout the year. In the GP game, if your are not improving and developing, you are going backward. So if we are to believe that the Ducati did not get developed over 2 years of Stoner winning on it, then perhaps the bike is an Emasculate Conception?! Lets just say for the sake of argument he didn’t develop the 07 bike the entire year, then how does Noyes and Gardner & Hates Inc. explain Casey winning 10 more races the following two year? Surely he doesn’t know how do develop, eh? (sarcasm) While Stoner worked and developed the screamer, he won a total of 20 races, they go to a conventional bike, that is Yamahized it, and the dude can’t push it. If anybody has moved their heart, it’s Ducati, as there bike is now riding like they are on Rossi’s payroll. (How is that for perspective Mr. Burgess?, you ....). Of course the Stoner haters (of which it appears Noyes & Gardner are) would like us to believe Stoner doesn't know how to develop, but its only when they moved away from his personal winning formula did he start to suffer, odd? No, not to the blind.



So Stoner doesn’t know how to develop, so which is it, do we believe Rossi whos said Ducati’s culture does not care about rider input toward development or are we to believe Stoner’s 20 wins over three years has zero development from Stoner?



BTW, 6 wins and 9 podiums since Laguna 08 on a 3rd tier bike behind Yamaha & Honda. Oh, and if we are to believe the Boppers that the secret sabotaging of Rossi's Yamaha has transformed it into a top 5 bike, then how much more is Stoner's win's worth?) According to Noyes, you'd think Stoner evaporated from planet earth after Laguna 08. ....'em.
Click to expand...

Gardner has alienated many ( probably most) of his fans including me since his retirement. The underlying theme to most of his pronouncements about current gp racing and gp riders nearly always trends back to how good he was, and I struggle to recall any useful insight from him. He was a brave and entertaining rider in the day, but he certainly isn't the sharpest tool in the shed. My point concerning when burgess made his statement was meant to be relevant only to where he will be next year, which I don't believe will be hrc. As you imply, the opinion of rossi's crew chief about a competitor against whom rossi is wont to attempt mind games can hardly be regarded as unbiased.



I try to be fair about arguments made by others which I can't definitively refute. I personally think stoner can develop for himself (it is unreasonable to expect him not to do so I would have thought) but is quite an unconventional rider hence perhaps why bikes which suit him don't suit others. As we have discussed previously the gp 08 and gp 09 when he was the unquestioned present and likely future lead rider did display championship competitive pace in his hands for at least a part of those seasons whilst the gp10 apparently not developed in his direction has not. As I understood it the gp08 had a basic fault at the start of the season leading to the necessity to return to the 2007 engine which surely is an engineering/design problem and not a rider development deficiency, and this derailed his season a long time prior to laguna seca, which is one reason why that race was so crucial.
 
Jumkie said:
Sad. But I disagree that Spanish riders dominate from the new electronics, they dominate because Spanish Dorna has stacked the field. Make something as difficult as they have for one group to use the farm system and we are now suppose to believe that its simply a shift without design? Please, tell that to the stupid people, they will surely believe it.
Click to expand...



Continental Europeans dominate b/c MotoGP is midgetGP. Every decent American rider is a Superbiker b/c that's what our national system makes. If you need someone to finish a tight corner with the rear wheel, or if you need someone to "flick" a 400lb race bike through a tight complex of esses, the US, Britain, and Oz are the place to recruit. Just look at the list of WSBK champions!!



Britons haven't won in over 400 races in GP so they don't have any delusions of grandeur. Americans...........well, American riders are not as practica b/c we get a taste of victory every 7 yearsl. Can you imagine what would have happened if Nicky and John were boosted into WSBK, and then Spies followed them!!!!
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Four epic American SBK riders vs. the Magnificent 7. It would be unrestricted bedlam!!!



Continental Europeans are good b/c the learn to ride GP bikes on GP circuits from the time they are little. Only the bird-boned make it into MotoGP. AMA has a completely different natural selection. The best American riders are big and strong. Instead of accepting what they are and kicking ... in WSBK, they try to starve themselves into MotoGP leather and then learn to pilot a bike with grace and fluidity.



This is the greatest SBK rider in AMA history bar-none in terms of raw talent.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfH8A2jUb1w[/media]



This kid is the lastest victim of the hegemonic ambitions of our golden era GP stars. If Spies wins a few titles, I'll retract that statement. If he doesn't, he will be another wasted epic SBK talent.
 
mylexicon said:
Continental Europeans dominate b/c MotoGP is midgetGP. Every decent American rider is a Superbiker b/c that's what our national system makes. If you need someone to finish a tight corner with the rear wheel, or if you need someone to "flick" a 400lb race bike through a tight complex of esses, the US, Britain, and Oz are the place to recruit. Just look at the list of WSBK champions!!



Britons haven't won in over 400 races in GP so they don't have any delusions of grandeur. Americans...........well, American riders are not as practica b/c we get a taste of victory every 7 yearsl. Can you imagine what would have happened if Nicky and John were boosted into WSBK, and then Spies followed them!!!!
<
Four epic American SBK riders vs. the Magnificent 7. It would be unrestricted bedlam!!!



Continental Europeans are good b/c the learn to ride GP bikes on GP circuits from the time they are little. Only the bird-boned make it into MotoGP. AMA has a completely different natural selection. The best American riders are big and strong. Instead of accepting what they are and kicking ... in WSBK, they try to starve themselves into MotoGP leather and then learn to pilot a bike with grace and fluidity.



This is the greatest SBK rider in AMA history bar-none in terms of raw talent.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfH8A2jUb1w[/media]



This kid is the lastest victim of the hegemonic ambitions of our golden era GP stars. If Spies wins a few titles, I'll retract that statement. If he doesn't, he will be another wasted epic SBK talent.
Click to expand...



MGP is the pinacle though, for riders and fans. So as long as that is the case they will allways want to be in the no.1 formula. Hayden and Hopper are and were MGP sized, its just Ben is bigger, but is he bigger than Rossi? and he's been somewhat succesful.



Its just the way motorcycleracing is ...... "light is might", its inherently so because the motorcycle is a high "power to weight" ratio machine, truck racing is a formula where its not so important. Even the G- forces experienced on bikes, could damage "the portly gentleman"
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Jumkie said:
Sad. But I disagree that Spanish riders dominate from the new electronics, they dominate because Spanish Dorna has stacked the field. Make something as difficult as they have for one group to use the farm system and we are now suppose to believe that its simply a shift without design? Please, tell that to the stupid people, they will surely believe it.



Noyes' cheapshot critic of Stoner says more about him than Casey. No mention that Ducati is a lump of .... but rather its Stoner's fault thanks to his chickenshit use of ........ critics from Burgess & Gardner (a man who like Mladin, says stupid .... in an attempt to stay relevant). Noyes says that Stoner wasn't the same after Laguna 08, trying to project his own Bopperism, yet then tells us Stoner came back, gets a 2nd, 2 straight up dominate wins, and probably would have won Valencia had that freak crash not occured (BTW, its not the first time that has happened, as it also happened to Lorenzo, that is, crashing on a warm up lap). So Casey's never been the same, but when he came back he all but dominated the final part of the season? Uhm, what are you smoking Noyes? Why does Honda get a pass when it doesn't win, as it did at the beginning of the season, but Ducati's woes are strictly Stoner's fault? ....... Boppers, they're everywhere.
Click to expand...

I thought Noyes didn't like Rossi either?? What kind of Bopper does it make him then? He only pointed out the facts, and from a man who's seen a race or two his opinions are valid.



I won't get into the stoner thing as it's all been said, but the Spanish Cup is obviously concerning many. It could also be said that the Rossi/Biaggi days made it the Italian Cup and the Doohan Days etc......



The larger problem now is Spains dominance in the lower classes as well.



I have to disagree that Jorges transition to the premier class was the smoothest/successful of the aliens though....I think Noyes may have had a few Tequilas prior to penning this one.....
 
Talpa said:
I won't get into the stoner thing as it's all been said, but the Spanish Cup is obviously concerning many. It could also be said that the Rossi/Biaggi days made it the Italian Cup and the Doohan Days etc......



The larger problem now is Spains dominance in the lower classes as well.



I have to disagree that Jorges transition to the premier class was the smoothest/successful of the aliens though....I think Noyes may have had a few Tequilas prior to penning this one.....
Click to expand...

Concerning stoner and ducati and his development of it or lack thereof all will soon be revealed; if it can be sorted valentino will do so, and it will also be interesting to see how casey will go on the honda in the post-valencia testing since dani has been lorenzo competitive on it on occasion this year. Concerning stoner not being able to develop for other riders I don't think rossi develops for other riders either, but as a rider with a more conventional riding style if not a conventional amount of talent bikes he develops do suit others.



I am sure jorge would agree with you that his transition was not smooth; I recall multiple highsides and significant injuries including concussion severe enough for him to miss races in 2008, and several crashes even last year (? 4 dnfs).
 
L8Braker said:
Nah, I just told Mdub about this site from a BMX racing forum. In one of his posts there he mentioned he was a huge Rossi fan so I sent him a PM and the rest is history...the site has never been the same...
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edit this is my 999th post, I'm going to save 1000 for tomorrow on my birthday, can't think of a better way to celebrate my 41st!
Click to expand...

Very cool, HAPPY BIRTHDAY BROTHA!
 
Talpa said:
I thought Noyes didn't like Rossi either?? What kind of Bopper does it make him then? He only pointed out the facts, and from a man who's seen a race or two his opinions are valid.
Click to expand...



Well the problem here is that his "facts" get called into question somewhat, and he puts his own spin, Bopper slanted, on what are otherwise just harmless comments by "other parties". Though it should be said, he would be writing to please a very large large gullible and oportunistic market
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I note that you believe every word he said, lapped it right up.
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