MotoGP champ 2011

yamaka46 · Mar 8, 2011

Talpa said:
welcome BBSB

Firstly they aren't joking but they are indeed clowns

You've made some very good and relevant points here, the thing with some is, they haven't gotten over Dani taking out Nicky at Estoril 06 so your never going to gain any decent insight or discussion on this matter (and pretty much all other matters, unless you appreciate heavily bias, extremely patriarchal and conspiratorial viewpoints

) with some from the land of the free here.....

Secondly, whenever you mention that the Ducati in 07 may have had significant Electronic and acceleration/top speed advantages you will end up with the Boners, sprouting things like 'How come no one else won on it then!' this one is most popular.

Which as we all know is complete and utter rubbish for anyone who bothers to remember or even watch the occasional reply of Races like Qatar, China, Catalunya, Turkey, Brno, not too mention the amazing performances of the BS Rubber at the then recently re-surfaced venue's like Laguna, and Misano I believe. Or the fact that it has been documented that the Marinelli electronics systems on the Duck in 07 were far superior to any others, which gave them significant acceleration advantages and the jump on the field. Or the fact the BS had a much better strategy on dealing with the new tyre supply regs, which essentially led to the now 'appalling'

Sole supplier reg. Riders have even spoken officially about these matters!

Just tell them to watch what happens particularly on the straights of Qatar, China, Brno and Catalunya, again, again and again maybe they might get it like the rest of the world, maybe even before hell freezes over

The simple fact of the matter is that Loris couldn't ride with TC like Stoner, in saying this I doubt that Stoner would have rode the previous incarnation of the Duck like Loris did the previous year, particularly at Herez, Motegi, Sepang and Valencia. Some of Loris's efforts in 07 didn't go unnoticed though, for example China where CV seriously complainied-Stating something like this live on air 'I just couldn't keep Loris behind me on the straights, he went past like I was standing still, that Ducati is So Fast!'

Anyhow this discussion has been had, and no doubt the normal responses will come, which will of course have some personal insults, a few bopper comments, some hating, Boning, maybe a psychoanalysis or two, and some reference to recent events which have no bearing whatsoever to what happen 4 years ago.......

Your points on Dani are all relevant and significant, even as recently as Qatar 2010 Dani and other HRC riders had serious problems with high speed wobbles-the thing has been a dog more often than not since the rule change. And now however, despite being only 0.1 of a second behind CS in the last test, Dani doesn't really rate a mention in the title race this year, here anyway which is really more a reflection of other factors

.

Personally I predict Dani will finish ahead of Stoner this season, he has much more experience on the 800cc Honda at the sharp end and data at all circuits plus a capacity to be seriously fast-consistently. As usual its not only the boners who reap the praise on Stoner after a couple of tests, he has the amazing ability to ride very fast straight away pretty much anywhere, however his record for consistency is not great nor his record for dealing with big pressure, therefore IMO rendering any serious consideration to him actually winning the title obsolete at this very early stage- Yeah I know they'll say-it was the Ducks front end, it was the tyres.....whatever......Until Proven Otherwise it has to be said. No points are allocated in testing.

The smarter money would be actually on Dani or Jorge for the title, unless your like me and eternally optimistic the boys from Bologna have a few tricks left yet.....

Talpa, pull your head in.

I'm a racing fan first and foremost and happen to have been a Rossi fan since 1996 when he first appeared on the scene and looked to have a lot of talent. I have been impressed by Stoner for similar reasons over the years.

The 07 Duke did not win with Stoner on board purely due to its perfection or its AE. Capirossi had man-handled the 990cc version for years (look back at the vids) and yet struggled with the 800. Despite the

fact that the visual riding styles of Capi on the 990 and Stoner on the 800 were quite similar - both manhandling an ill-handling bike which had plenty of power but not enough finesse (the bike not the rider). The 800s changed the score - more wheels-in-line due to the fuel limit and yet more AE.

I have no comprehension as to how you came to this conclusion:

The simple fact of the matter is that Loris couldn't ride with TC like Stoner, in saying this I doubt that Stoner would have rode the previous incarnation of the Duck like Loris did the previous year, particularly at Herez, Motegi, Sepang and Valencia....

As to this?

Secondly, whenever you mention that the Ducati in 07 may have had significant Electronic and acceleration/top speed advantages you will end up with the Boners, sprouting things like 'How come no one else won on it then!'

What's your logic then?

BTW ...

unless you appreciate heavily bias, extremely patriarchal and conspiratorial viewpoints

Kettle ... Pot. Did you mean really mean patriarchial, or rather parochial? You call Stoner supporters "Boners".

I call them Stoner fans or supporters. What is your problem?

BarryMachine · Mar 8, 2011

yamaka46 said:
What is your problem?

Talpa does exude an inordinate amount of ill explained, delusional and incomprehensible dislike for Stoner, I have often wondered why.

I have it down to only one logical explanation ........ based on all the stuff he dreams up ......

Talpa once thought he would be Mr Adriana Tuchnya ........

michaelm · Mar 8, 2011

Talpa said:
welcome BBSB

Firstly they aren't joking but they are indeed clowns

You've made some very good and relevant points here, the thing with some is, they haven't gotten over Dani taking out Nicky at Estoril 06 so your never going to gain any decent insight or discussion on this matter (and pretty much all other matters, unless you appreciate heavily bias, extremely patriarchal and conspiratorial viewpoints

) with some from the land of the free here.....

Secondly, whenever you mention that the Ducati in 07 may have had significant Electronic and acceleration/top speed advantages you will end up with the Boners, sprouting things like 'How come no one else won on it then!' this one is most popular.

Which as we all know is complete and utter rubbish for anyone who bothers to remember or even watch the occasional reply of Races like Qatar, China, Catalunya, Turkey, Brno, not too mention the amazing performances of the BS Rubber at the then recently re-surfaced venue's like Laguna, and Misano I believe. Or the fact that it has been documented that the Marinelli electronics systems on the Duck in 07 were far superior to any others, which gave them significant acceleration advantages and the jump on the field. Or the fact the BS had a much better strategy on dealing with the new tyre supply regs, which essentially led to the now 'appalling'

Sole supplier reg. Riders have even spoken officially about these matters!

Just tell them to watch what happens particularly on the straights of Qatar, China, Brno and Catalunya, again, again and again maybe they might get it like the rest of the world, maybe even before hell freezes over

The simple fact of the matter is that Loris couldn't ride with TC like Stoner, in saying this I doubt that Stoner would have rode the previous incarnation of the Duck like Loris did the previous year, particularly at Herez, Motegi, Sepang and Valencia. Some of Loris's efforts in 07 didn't go unnoticed though, for example China where CV seriously complainied-Stating something like this live on air 'I just couldn't keep Loris behind me on the straights, he went past like I was standing still, that Ducati is So Fast!'

Anyhow this discussion has been had, and no doubt the normal responses will come, which will of course have some personal insults, a few bopper comments, some hating, Boning, maybe a psychoanalysis or two, and some reference to recent events which have no bearing whatsoever to what happen 4 years ago.......

Your points on Dani are all relevant and significant, even as recently as Qatar 2010 Dani and other HRC riders had serious problems with high speed wobbles-the thing has been a dog more often than not since the rule change. And now however, despite being only 0.1 of a second behind CS in the last test, Dani doesn't really rate a mention in the title race this year, here anyway which is really more a reflection of other factors

.

Personally I predict Dani will finish ahead of Stoner this season, he has much more experience on the 800cc Honda at the sharp end and data at all circuits plus a capacity to be seriously fast-consistently. As usual its not only the boners who reap the praise on Stoner after a couple of tests, he has the amazing ability to ride very fast straight away pretty much anywhere, however his record for consistency is not great nor his record for dealing with big pressure, therefore IMO rendering any serious consideration to him actually winning the title obsolete at this very early stage- Yeah I know they'll say-it was the Ducks front end, it was the tyres.....whatever......Until Proven Otherwise it has to be said. No points are allocated in testing.

The smarter money would be actually on Dani or Jorge for the title, unless your like me and eternally optimistic the boys from Bologna have a few tricks left yet.....

I have been against the rossi bashing on here of late but it is timely of you to remind us of the attitudes which precipitated it. Just because rossi's achievements are so great, and hence there is even less reason to bash him, does not mean it is reasonable to beliitle stoner's achievements which are still very considerable in the premier class, and at the moment superior to anyone currently racing other than rossi, and superior to anyone else rossi has raced in the premier class for that matter. Having (probably correctly) been accused in my youth of being excessively wedded to aristotlean logic, as I have said previously I don't understand any rossi fan who denigrates stoner's record, as the logical corollary of stoner being no good is that valentino hasn't beaten anyone of substance in his 7 premier class titles.

No-one disputes that ducati have always produced bikes with good power and that in the 800 era and particularly in 2007 the bike has had good straight-line performance. In fact it still does, and your boy has directlly said that he is very happy with the engine/power but that he can't get the thing to turn, particularly mid corner. Perhaps you don't believe him either. In case my memory was failing me I looked at the results for the 2003 world championship, and it still seems to be the case that colin edwards didn't win the championship, or even a race , that year on the monstrously powerful and fast- in- a -straight- line aprilia cube.

If by your spurious logic you wish to discount stoner's 2007 wins then I will discount valentino's wins in 2002 when he had the most obvious bike advantage since agostini, and in 2001, again in 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2005 when he had a tyre advantage over a significant fraction of the field (I wouldn't make such an argument outside of the confines of this discussion with you), which would make it rather difficult for him to catch ago.

You mention that stoner beat capirossi in 2007 because he was better at riding the 2007 ducati with its traction control, for once an irrefutable argument, but spurious in view of the fact that to my knowledge there weren't any non-tc 2007 ducatis for either to ride.

My favourite for this year's title is lorenzo, and valentino would obviously be equal favourite with anything like bike equivalency which at this stage it looks like he might not have at least early. I agree stoner is in need of a good and consistent performance this year, but until he actually has crashes on what is obviously a competitive bike dismissing him on the grounds he will crash would seem as premature as crowning him champion on the basis of times in testing.

BarryMachine · Mar 8, 2011

Michael, I have a pet slug named Stanley who just won't be potty trained, will you reason with him for me ? .....

Talpa · Mar 9, 2011

michaelm said:
I have been against the rossi bashing on here of late but it is timely of you to remind us of the attitudes which precipitated it. Just because rossi's achievements are so great, and hence there is even less reason to bash him, does not mean it is reasonable to beliitle stoner's achievements which are still very considerable in the premier class, and at the moment superior to anyone currently racing other than rossi, and superior to anyone else rossi has raced in the premier class for that matter. Having (probably correctly) been accused in my youth of being excessively wedded to aristotlean logic, as I have said previously I don't understand any rossi fan who denigrates stoner's record, as the logical corollary of stoner being no good is that valentino hasn't beaten anyone of substance in his 7 premier class titles.

No-one disputes that ducati have always produced bikes with good power and that in the 800 era and particularly in 2007 the bike has had good straight-line performance. In fact it still does, and your boy has directlly said that he is very happy with the engine/power but that he can't get the thing to turn, particularly mid corner. Perhaps you don't believe him either. In case my memory was failing me I looked at the results for the 2003 world championship, and it still seems to be the case that colin edwards didn't win the championship, or even a race , that year on the monstrously powerful and fast- in- a -straight- line aprilia cube.

If by your spurious logic you wish to discount stoner's 2007 wins then I will discount valentino's wins in 2002 when he had the most obvious bike advantage since agostini, and in 2001, again in 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2005 when he had a tyre advantage over a significant fraction of the field (I wouldn't make such an argument outside of the confines of this discussion with you), which would make it rather difficult for him to catch ago.

You mention that stoner beat capirossi in 2007 because he was better at riding the 2007 ducati with its traction control, for once an irrefutable argument, but spurious in view of the fact that to my knowledge there weren't any non-tc 2007 ducatis for either to ride.

My favourite for this year's title is lorenzo, and valentino would obviously be equal favourite with anything like bike equivalency which at this stage it looks like he might not have at least early. I agree stoner is in need of a good and consistent performance this year, but until he actually has crashes on what is obviously a competitive bike dismissing him on the grounds he will crash would seem as premature as crowning him champion on the basis of times in testing.

Talpa · Mar 9, 2011

michaelm said:
I have been against the rossi bashing on here of late but it is timely of you to remind us of the attitudes which precipitated it. Just because rossi's achievements are so great, and hence there is even less reason to bash him, does not mean it is reasonable to beliitle stoner's achievements which are still very considerable in the premier class, and at the moment superior to anyone currently racing other than rossi, and superior to anyone else rossi has raced in the premier class for that matter. Having (probably correctly) been accused in my youth of being excessively wedded to aristotlean logic, as I have said previously I don't understand any rossi fan who denigrates stoner's record, as the logical corollary of stoner being no good is that valentino hasn't beaten anyone of substance in his 7 premier class titles.

No-one disputes that ducati have always produced bikes with good power and that in the 800 era and particularly in 2007 the bike has had good straight-line performance. In fact it still does, and your boy has directlly said that he is very happy with the engine/power but that he can't get the thing to turn, particularly mid corner. Perhaps you don't believe him either. In case my memory was failing me I looked at the results for the 2003 world championship, and it still seems to be the case that colin edwards didn't win the championship, or even a race , that year on the monstrously powerful and fast- in- a -straight- line aprilia cube.

If by your spurious logic you wish to discount stoner's 2007 wins then I will discount valentino's wins in 2002 when he had the most obvious bike advantage since agostini, and in 2001, again in 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2005 when he had a tyre advantage over a significant fraction of the field (I wouldn't make such an argument outside of the confines of this discussion with you), which would make it rather difficult for him to catch ago.

You mention that stoner beat capirossi in 2007 because he was better at riding the 2007 ducati with its traction control, for once an irrefutable argument, but spurious in view of the fact that to my knowledge there weren't any non-tc 2007 ducatis for either to ride.

My favourite for this year's title is lorenzo, and valentino would obviously be equal favourite with anything like bike equivalency which at this stage it looks like he might not have at least early. I agree stoner is in need of a good and consistent performance this year, but until he actually has crashes on what is obviously a competitive bike dismissing him on the grounds he will crash would seem as premature as crowning him champion on the basis of times in testing.

Mick its simple, and its never going to change, you say Stoneotoes I say VR-atoes

-especially with events in the past

Anyhow, I predicted these reactions, and whilst extreme, my post is simply a reflection/satire of the completely ridiculous hypocrisy of many here. I like to point it out, they don't like to accept it.

Talpa · Mar 9, 2011

yamaka46 said:
Talpa, pull your head in.

I'm a racing fan first and foremost and happen to have been a Rossi fan since 1996 when he first appeared on the scene and looked to have a lot of talent. I have been impressed by Stoner for similar reasons over the years.

The 07 Duke did not win with Stoner on board purely due to its perfection or its AE. Capirossi had man-handled the 990cc version for years (look back at the vids) and yet struggled with the 800. Despite the

fact that the visual riding styles of Capi on the 990 and Stoner on the 800 were quite similar - both manhandling an ill-handling bike which had plenty of power but not enough finesse (the bike not the rider). The 800s changed the score - more wheels-in-line due to the fuel limit and yet more AE.

I have no comprehension as to how you came to this conclusion:

As to this?

What's your logic then?

BTW ...

Kettle ... Pot. Did you mean really mean patriarchial, or rather parochial? You call Stoner supporters "Boners".

I call them Stoner fans or supporters. What is your problem?

Its simple, Its easy to say he could ride the 990 like Loris did and its just as easy to say he couldn't......depending on your POV both arguments have merit. I never said that the TC rode itself in 07 at all, only that it gave Ducati an acceleration advantage over the field and that Loris couldn't adapt well enough.

I actually didn't invent the term 'Boner' but it is rather appropriate, some here call Rossi fans Boppers, I prefer to know them as Rossi Fans

And yes I did mean Patriarchal for more than obvious reasons.

Keshav · Mar 9, 2011

Talpa said:
Mick its simple, and its never going to change, you say Stoneotoes I say VR-atoes

-especially with events in the past

Anyhow, I predicted these reactions, and whilst extreme, my post is simply ~~a reflection/satire of the completely~~ ridiculous ~~hypocrisy of many here~~. ~~I like to point it out, they don't like to accept it.~~ I can dish it out - but am totally blind to

my own hypocrisy.

Fixed it for yah.

Talpa · Mar 9, 2011

Keshav said:
Fixed it for yah.

Kesh.......you've missed your calling!

That's some of the best editing I've ever seen!

yamaka46 · Mar 9, 2011

Talpa said:
Its simple, Its easy to say he could ride the 990 like Loris did and its just as easy to say he couldn't......depending on your POV both arguments have merit. I never said that the TC rode itself in 07 at all, only that it gave Ducati an acceleration advantage over the field and that Loris couldn't adapt well enough.

I actually didn't invent the term 'Boner' but it is rather appropriate, some here call Rossi fans Boppers, I prefer to know them as Rossi Fans

And yes I did mean Patriarchal for more than obvious reasons.

Logic - nah .... logic.

It's easy to say Stoner could have ridden the 990 Duke like Capi did. Or not. Except he didn't cos he was at LCR.

You say that TC gave Ducati an acceleration advantage over the field and yet Capi, who rode the wheels off the ill-handling 990 Duke couldn't deal with advanced TC . FFS.

Regarding Rossi fans - have you checked out my avatar? I don't subscribe to your simplistic system of Rossi fan = Stoner hater and vice versa. You may not have invented the term Boner but boy are you trying to wear it out.

michaelm · Mar 9, 2011

Talpa said:
Mick its simple, and its never going to change, you say Stoneotoes I say VR-atoes

-especially with events in the past

Anyhow, I predicted these reactions, and whilst extreme, my post is simply a reflection/satire of the completely ridiculous hypocrisy of many here. I like to point it out, they don't like to accept it.

I mainly replied for fun, and because I didn't want to disappoint your obvious expectation of responses

.

I think there is pretty good evidence that I don't hate rossi though. As I said he would be at least equal favourite this year as in any year he competes if the bike is not fundamentally flawed; I actually think the shoulder wouldn't stop him in that circumstance.

I don't decry any of rossi's achievements, and it is ridiculous to ascribe them to him having unfair advantages, although this in the past on here has often been in response to bashing of other riders rather than arising spontaneously. My argument has always been against those who discount stoner's championship in 2007 also ridiculously in my opinion and I believe I have again demonstrated that your arguments concerning this are flawed as they have been in the past.

This year will be decisive ; if he does not prosper I will accept that he is good but not great, but that near perfect 2007 season on a difficult bike even if he was only capable of getting it all together for that one season and had some unique and strange synergy with that particular bike will remain a significant achievement, as will his 13 subsequent wins in comparison with most riders in history except the true greats among whom rossi is obviously numbered.

If you don't like his personality that is how it is and you are obviously perfectly entitled to that opinion, but it doesn't mean he didn't win those 23 races

.

Talpa · Mar 9, 2011

yamaka46 said:
You say that TC gave Ducati an acceleration advantage over the field and yet Capi, who rode the wheels off the ill-handling 990 Duke couldn't deal with advanced TC . FFS.

Please enlighten us then on what happened.........

geewhiz14 · Mar 15, 2011

Here to fly the flag for Pedrobot.

LittleEgg · Mar 16, 2011

michaelm said:
I mainly replied for fun, and because I didn't want to disappoint your obvious expectation of responses

.

I think there is pretty good evidence that I don't hate rossi though. As I said he would be at least equal favourite this year as in any year he competes if the bike is not fundamentally flawed; I actually think the shoulder wouldn't stop him in that circumstance.

I don't decry any of rossi's achievements, and it is ridiculous to ascribe them to him having unfair advantages, although this in the past on here has often been in response to bashing of other riders rather than arising spontaneously. My argument has always been against those who discount stoner's championship in 2007 also ridiculously in my opinion and I believe I have again demonstrated that your arguments concerning this are flawed as they have been in the past.

This year will be decisive ; if he does not prosper I will accept that he is good but not great, but that near perfect 2007 season on a difficult bike even if he was only capable of getting it all together for that one season and had some unique and strange synergy with that particular bike will remain a significant achievement, as will his 13 subsequent wins in comparison with most riders in history except the true greats among whom rossi is obviously numbered.

If you don't like his personality that is how it is and you are obviously perfectly entitled to that opinion, but it doesn't mean he didn't win those 23 races

.

What i dont understand around here and i will give an example....

Stoner in 2007 was slingshotting past 2 bikes at a time on straights(and to a much lesser extent in 2008) it was one of the most glaringly obvious power advantages i have ever seen in top flight motorsport, if rossi had that kind of technical performance edge right now on the duc, i KNOW what many people would be saying on these very boards, if he started doing well.

I am not trying to take anything away from stoner.....the bike was a dog to ride, and i have actually warmed to him in recent times, but this is a true fact and people NEVER seem to mention anymore? maybe for fear of an almighty shitstorm.

The duc was .... then, and had a very fast engine under the hood.

The duc is .... now, but its more of a level playing field under the hood.

Rossi is like a second on average behind the aliens.

I guess what i am saying is that its easy for anyone to credit/discredit stoner for 2007, but given what we know, how can we discredit anyone else for not going well on the duc since that season? This includes casey himself....overall, andd especially rossi now, who has had a few test sessions only on the bike.

It would be interesting to see how stoners average lap times compared to the championship winners of 2008/2009/2010 in the same seasons....and compare it to what we are currently seeing on the duc. Especially 2009/2010 season where the duc was truly equalled in speed.

BarryMachine · Mar 16, 2011

Rob said:
Stoner in 2007 was slingshotting past 2 bikes at a time on straights(and to a much lesser extent in 2008) it was one of the most glaringly obvious power advantages i have ever seen in top flight motorsport, if rossi had that kind of technical performance edge right now on the duc, i KNOW what many people would be saying on these very boards, if he started doing well.

Yes we saw Stoner overtake in many places, straights corners whatever. Never saw his team mate Ducati riders doing it though.

Stoner is fast everywhere so logically if you leave a corner faster than everyone else then you have the jump on them

Ducati need to get some Pre-Rossi Bridgestones to get back to a front end that grips ...... that and ride like Stoner

Capirossi was overtaking 2 bikes at a time on the straights

......... in your dreams!!

BHarvey · Mar 16, 2011

The power advantage the Ducs had was at it's largest before the Japanese brands went to pneumatic valves. The old spring valve was never a match for the Desmo valvetrain in power at such high rpm's. On the 990's they still had the advantage but not as big as with the 800's.

I remember when Biaggi was on 250's they always attributed his straightline speed to the Aprillia, but according to the data, his teammates on the same bike were 7-10 mph slower at corner exit.

LittleEgg · Mar 16, 2011

BarryMachine said:
Yes we saw Stoner overtake in many places, straights corners whatever. Never saw his team mate Ducati riders doing it though.

Stoner is fast everywhere so logically if you leave a corner faster than everyone else then you have the jump on them

Ducati need to get some Pre-Rossi Bridgestones to get back to a front end that grips ...... that and ride like Stoner

Capirossi was overtaking 2 bikes at a time on the straights

......... in your dreams!!

Yes he may have been quicker out of the corners than capi in 2007, but the 20bhp advantage will have helped immensely.

If his exit speed was the primary factor then what happened in 2008? the duc was still the fastest bike in a straight line(allbeit by a smaller margin) but if we are atrributing this 2007 straight line pace mainly to exit speed, then why didnt he dominate the year after?

Just trying to be fair to everyone else who has ridden the duc SINCE 2007.....as they havent enjoyed a 20bhp advantage over every other bike. Only capi has and clearly he didnt ride the duc well that year at all....although a win, and 4 podiums isnt the worst season ever.

Add this same BHP advantage to the duc in 2008/2009/2010...and more to the point 2011. Now that would make for an interesting outcome....evidently any success would be defended by corner speed too.

I seriously hope people dont start getting super sensitive feeling they need to defend stoner here, thats not the point....he is undoubtedly a super fast, super talented guy.

Search

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MotoGP champ 2011

Who will it be?

Rossi

Lorenzo

Stoner

Pedrosa

Spies

Dovi

Hayden

Simoncelli

Bautista

Capirex

Other ( sorry but it's only between 4 anyway)

yamaka46

BarryMachine

michaelm

BarryMachine

Talpa

Talpa

Talpa

Keshav

Talpa

yamaka46

michaelm

Talpa

geewhiz14

LittleEgg

BarryMachine

BHarvey

LittleEgg

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