Jumkie,
I am neither a fan nor a hater of Pedrosa. ...
PS: I wouldn't like to be laeblled as a bopper or delusional based on this discussion.
Have you noticed I’ve started a few replies to you with the words “with all due respect”? Well that’s because I don’t consider you a bopper, hater, delusional, etc. I consider you sensible as most everybody here. In fact, there are only about 2-3 people I’d place in that category on this entire form, one of which is Talpa, so that kinda narrows it down.
So, with all due respect Ren, its my opinion that your two last posts, the first where you compare wins from Casey and Pedro, and this one were you compare their winning percentage for 2010 are very elementary at best. Its like you found some anomaly in stats to make a point but didn’t realize that this was only part of a bigger picture that points completely in a different direction from the point you were trying to make. Oh, and this would not even begin to tell the 07-09 story.
First of all, you’ve now twice glossed over the reality of a completely opposite development picture between Casey vs Pedro; by saying, well you don’t want to talk about “hearsay” but want to stick to “facts”? Hahaha, so you are stating its NOT fact that HRC was decidedly developed around Pedro?
Perhaps you are not aware (or simply refuse to accept it); but one very significant aspect of HRC is the issue of what rider receives what parts, so much so, that there is always a question of rider performance in regard to support given. Perhaps it was this dynamic, which Rossi was accustomed to, which lead to being disgruntled with Yamaha, who in recent years, had a decidedly different strategy.
So what are “facts” to you Ren? Only numbers? Here are a few: 987509348754598732948. Do they make sense? Probably not, because they need to be supported with interpretations and relevant explanations. Its this where we differ. For example, many have used top speed to make a point, while I have consistently refuted that interpretation. Even back in 07, when so many rabid fans pointed to Stoner’s top speed numbers to make a dismissive point about Stoner’s talent; and when compared to other top speed machines in regards to results, made their interpretations incorrect at best and laughable at worst. Very similar here, comparing 2010, hahaha. Did you forget that Pedro broke his collar bone at Motegi forcing him to miss some rounds? You see, its these kinds of details that need to be part of the equation while making your point. As it’s this kind of important details that have a way of skewing the numbers.
Again, lets start with the first 800s, Casey vs Pedro. Remember, my point is that Pedro has had good luck and great treatment (which you attempt to refute), if you recall, I was replying to BSBB who basically was saying poor little Pedro has had a rough time in GP from bad luck to wrong place wrong time etc. (your point was to support his.)
Ok, anyway, here is the short version: .... Pedro.
Now here is the long version: In 2006, the GP6 (that’s the last Ducati 990) won and scored a podium in the last race of the season. By that time Ducati had developed the GP7 (that was the first evolution of the Ducati 800). Can you tell me when the first GP7 was tested? I’ll save us both the time and just tell you, it was very early in the 06 season. I think it was in May of that year. Loris tested it at Brno. You can fact check, but Loris had won the race on the GP6, then tested the GP7 in the test that followed. Why am I telling you this? Because I want to make it abundantly clear to you that the GP7 Ducati was develop with not the faintest idea Casey Stoner (Duc’s 3rd choice) would be riding it come 2007.
Now contrast that with Pedro’s poor “bad luck” and “wrong place wrong time” GP experience and treatment while at HRC. In 2006, while Nicky Hayden was leading the championship, he was riding (211) and testing parts (212); what would be part of the new evolution of the RC212V (or as I called it the DP/PD212V). Yes, that’s right, while veteran and points leader Nicky was challenging for a championship, he was also testing a bike which was decidedly aimed at his NEW and rookie teammate to rider for the 07 campaign. Rumor or fact? Going into the preseason test of the 212, the satellite teams became increasingly disgruntled because the flow of new and improved parts were not flowing down, and what seemed to be horded by a one Dani Pedrosa. So much so that it prompted Marco Melandri (a multiple GP winner in 06) to say (paraphrasing): ‘Dani’s bike has made much progress but we are still waiting for parts.’ (Perhaps knowing the dynamic surrounding Pedro, he would make the fateful leap to Ducati in 08). When the final version of the 212V was introduced to Hayden, he thought it was a prank. Rumor or fact? After a few piss poor results, by HRC standards, Pedro, in only his second year in MotoGP threatened to leave HRC (that should give you a clue about the man’s clout & influence. HRC chief Satoru Horiike threw himself on his sword and HRC under the bus saying it was Hondas fault not Dani’s! That’s rather breathtaking. (Actually the guy said they had made a mistake in development, but the idiots continued going with the mass centralization for the entire year, then later again saying it was a mistake).
Notwithstanding, they still managed to make major improvements by throwing crazy money and armies of engineers at the problem, it was until the end of the season with the team taking a string of poles (5) and a win at season end that it looked HRC had finally propped Pedro in the right direction. (Here is an interesting subnote for those fixated on top speed, Casey was not usually the event top speed holder, sometimes it was the customer Ducs, in a year that he crushed everybody, the satellites by the same name were no where to be seen; Pedro, was mainly the top Honda speed holder, even topped the Ducs one event in speed. Poor Pedro.)
Now that was just the first year of the 800s. Should I go on to contrast the “bad luck” vs pie in the sky experience of Pedro vs Casey? (Now we are talking the contrast in their GP experience/treatment/support, as you can see, advantage Pedro).
Ok, this post is getting too long. Just a few highlights for you for the following years, while HRC did everything possible for Pedro: 08, HRC introduced pneumatic valves, but in true Repsol fashion, they let Nicky be the guinea pig. And infact Nicky accepted the duty because he was desperate for a change, so he got it at Donnington. You may recall at the next round at Assen 08, Nicky was set to podium, but the less than ready valve system consumed so much fuel that it ran out of gas at the line. I can only imagine the hell HRC would have had to pay if that embarrassment happened to Pedro. Dani kept finding things to blame and honed in his displeasure at, and this time it was Michelin, infact his “mentor” (and Dorna official) planed a coup d'état against Michelin. The series acquiesced and at round 13 it was announce that Pedro would switch to Bridgestone. (Despite at the beginning of the season both riders asking a switch to Bstones). Oh, nothing goes Pedros way, eh. Haha. Rumor or fact?
You think Dani’s poor miserable treatment continued in 09 at HRC? It sure did (sarcasm), as again the Japanese fell on their swords and threw themselves under the bus. The start of the season saw Dani with a new teammate, but after a couple rounds, again Dani was disgruntled prompting Nakamoto (HRC VP) to say almost exactly what the new Rossi-Ducati clout dynamic would drive an executive to say under the pressure exerted by an influential rider (paraphrasing): ‘If Dani doesn’t win, its Honda’s fault.’ (Sound familiar?) Dovi not being the doormat Hayden was actually expressed his frustration with HRC, saying that he was concerned with HRC giving Pedro priority. Look it up, see Dovi’s comments after the 09 Catalunya round. Rumor or fact?
In 2010, HRC went after Yamaha’s and Ducati’s personnel; look up what these men where doing before they joined HRC: Andre Zugna, Cristian Battaglia, Carlo Luzzi. Perhaps finally seeing the writing on the wall, and despite HRC throwing everything under the sun for Pedro, even to the point of it detrimental to Dani’s teammates, who in the scope of Dani’s careers are merely pawns, they hired Luvio Suppo. Its this year that Honda really started making gains in results (as oppose to previous years where the effort was there but under the strict direction around Pedro). This dynamic I think was relaxed, and interestingly it coincides with better on track results for Honda.
Now contrast that to Stoner, who every years has scored multiple wins and in comparison to other Ducati riders has stood head and shoulders above. What was his reward? Oh yeah, Ducati actually developed away from his preferences. They introduce a big bang to make it more user friendly for everybody else (and it comes to light recently that Casey opted to go with a 2 year old electronics package). Nicky starts to improve results in a dramatic fashion (where previously Casey’s teammates including Nicky were bottom dwelling). Did this make Casey stop winning? NO. He continued to win, screamer, big bang, carbon “chassis”, what ever. The only difference in his consistency was a win-or-bin mentality that the bike seemed to demand.
Pedro has won a fraction of the races Stoner has won during the 800s, but it’s NOT from lack of throwing money, resources, personnel, influence and preferential treatment at Dani. Contrast to Stoner, he won on a bike not developed for him, and when they did make big changes, it was to tame the beast to make it more ridable for others, decidedly contrasting experience revolving around Pedro. Stoner simply is a phenomenal rider, and so far has eclipsed Pedro even now as teammates on the new and improved Honda.
