MOTEGI GP 2011: RACE

J4rn0 said:

In fact Rossi did a quite erratic line change, after being touched by Lorenzo... Your spatial perceptions are ok, it is the temporal ones that are all mixed up. That's where the mind intervenes probably..

You are also absolutely right that Rossi could have got through. There is even photographic evidence of that:

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Very funny picture.....lol

Rossi said that this was just a racing incident and whether he really meant that or not we will never know. Maybe Stoner had a plan with Lorenzo and the Spaniard took the revenge for the Rossi - Stoner - Jerez incident

Geonerd said:

Talpa, please hijacking other people's accounts!



J, you usually make sense.

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As I see it, Lorenzo's change of track position was smooth and predictable; he steered in a straight line to his turn-in point. In Rossi's slight defense, it looks like Lorenzo made up about half a bike length on the brakes, and may not have been visible until Rossi turned in on him. I still see Rossi as the one initiating contact.

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hahaha epic fail !! your pointing at simonchelli saying its lorenzo.

chopperman said:

hahaha epic fail !! your pointing at simonchelli saying its lorenzo.

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Hey where's penguin tae tell Casey he's ..... for coming third?

Jumkie said:

Can we change the subject on the incident and talk about the jump start rule? Watching it a few more times, it looks like Dovi hit the brakes after flinching. He is stopped at the instant the light go out. Not only that, but he had not crossed the line in his grid marker. Is there a rule that the rider cannot move around while the lights are red? I see the riders moving all the time moments before the lights go out. If the rider has to get the ride through penalty even for starting at the correct time (as Dovi did) and being completely stopped (as Dovi did) and not crossing the grid marker (as Dovi did), then what is to stop a rider from just leaving and going through the penalty anyway?

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Once you move it#s a jump start, no way he got any advantage from it though. And still he forced Spencer into a rookie mistake! Go Dovi!

Jumkie said:

Can we change the subject on the incident and talk about the jump start rule? Watching it a few more times, it looks like Dovi hit the brakes after flinching. He is stopped at the instant the lights go out. Not only that, but he had not crossed the line in his grid marker. Is there a rule that the rider cannot move around while the lights are red? I see the riders moving all the time moments before the lights go out (adjusting ....). If the rider has to get the ride through penalty even for starting at the correct time (as Dovi did) and being completely stopped (as Dovi did) and not crossing the grid marker (as Dovi did), then what is to stop a rider from just leaving and going through the penalty anyway?

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As pete said once the red lights are on you cant move a wheel until green. I think the punishment is way to harsh, as you said dovi gained no advantage at all. I dont think Cal or marco did either but thats the rules i suppose.

Jumkie said:

Ok, but at what point are you not allowed to move anymore? Check out the replay, take a look at Rossi the instant the light split screen goes up. Check out VR look over his left leg abruptly. Did race direction upon review miss him flinching while they were concentrating on Dovi, Sic, and Crutchlow (honest question here)? Also, keep a close eye on Rossi's bike, the front tire is a good point of reference (you will need to watch this several times, as it will take you a bit to coordinate, but stay focused on his front tire while with your peripheral vision keep track of Dovi's flinch); I detect Rossi's front tire move slightly the instant Dovi flinched looking like he also reacted to Dovi's movement. I invite anybody reading this to watch again, you will need to watch it multiple times, I think you will arrive at the same conclusion as I have, that Rossi also slightly moved in reaction to Dovi, as did Sic and Cal. Not to mention that he moved rather hastily the moment the split screen comes up showing the light. Check it out. Give me your honest thoughts.

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I dont think there is a rule on riders looking about or figiting ect, i think the rule is the wheels dont move once the red lights are up. Think is its quite common for very slight movement due to clutch grab so i suppose its down to how the spotter see's it.

Jumkie said:

Agree. Without looking up the rule, I think its probably the wheels cannot move once lights are red. HOWEVER, I edited my last post, I honestly think Rossi's bike moved in reaction to Dovi.

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Quite possible although i did'nt notice. Rossi could have been spotted alongside Dove, cal and marco but was not on track long enough to get a ride through if he were guilty.



Edit. Infact he was back in his garage BEFORE the jump start warnings came out !

chopperman said:

I dont think there is a rule on riders looking about or figiting ect, i think the rule is the wheels dont move once the red lights are up. Think is its quite common for very slight movement due to clutch grab so i suppose its down to how the spotter see's it.

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The rule is: "Anticipation of the start is defined by the motorcycle moving forward when the red lights are on. The Race Direction will decide if a penalty will be imposed and must arrange for the team to be notified of such penalty before the end of the fourth lap."



I suppose a "flinch", without any appreciable forward movement, would be OK. Anything more than a centimeter and I guess you're guilty. Probably better to be a stickler for these things. Races 20 years ago were a chaos of riders creeping forward before lights out.

chopperman said:

hahaha epic fail !! your pointing at simonchelli saying its lorenzo.

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WTF?

Rog, bud, I think it's time to put down the absinthe.

In the above image, Simo is directly behind Lorenzo, approximately between Rossi and Elias.





And Jum is right about that filthy cheater Rossi jumping the start!

He definitely flinched, and his bike appears to roll forward a hair. Oh well, Karma took care of things quite nicely.

Geonerd said:

WTF?

Rog, bud, I think it's time to put down the absinthe.

In the above image, Simo is directly behind Lorenzo, approximately between Rossi and Elias.





And Jum is right about that filthy cheater Rossi jumping the start!

He definitely flinched, and his bike appears to roll forward a hair. Oh well, Karma took care of things quite nicely.

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The bike you have an arrow pointing to with lorenzo written by it has 58 on the front ! Stop eating the scorpion buddy



Oh and maybe race direction should make rossi do a ride through at sepang, just to keep the haters happy

Jumkie, the rule is clear in that if refers to the forward (and also actually backward) movement of teh bike as constituting a jump start. Basically, if the tyres move then a jump start occurred and the position of the rider in all this means squat in the sceme of it all.



Personally the rule in this case is clear cut and fair (IMO) as was evident by all three riders who jumped admitting in interviews that they 'knew' what had happened and were ready for teh sign to ride through.



From memory (Krop or others jump in here) the ride through was implemented a number of years ago as a 'fairer' penalty than a time penalty imposed at the end of the race.



FWIW, this is/was the first time in MGP (from what I have been told and can find) of more than two riders jumping the start so irrespective, at least the three made some kind of history









Gaz

Geonerd said:

WTF?

Rog, bud, I think it's time to put down the absinthe.

In the above image, Simo is directly behind Lorenzo, approximately between Rossi and Elias.

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Don't worry about Rog. He is just trying to deflect the heat off Marlbro man with slight of hand tactics ie what your eyes see happen, didn't actually happen.

Jumkie said:

I count 4 riders jumping the start.



Thanks for the clarification guys, now what is the rule if a rider jumps the start and then later crashes?

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Well you cant do a ride through if your out the race. If you crash then re-start you would have to do a ride through as long as you were told by lap 4.

J4rn0 I can usually get down with what you're saying but dude this time you're on crack... it really doesn't matter if the move by the rider/driver/skier what-farking-ever in front is "dangerous" (which in this case it wasn't) it is absolutely the responsibility of the trailing racer to deal with it.

Jumkie said:

Pretty much how I see it. Except I added one words above. This was a classic racing incident if there ever was one, and by saying that, generally it means no blame to be case, however, if we are going to blame somebody, blaming it on Lorenzo is in incorrect as you say above.







I'm willing to chalk it up to a racing incidents and leave blame out of it if peeps are willing to stop blaming the wrong rider in the incident.

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You are right Jum and I'm loath to dole out blame - but so many twats were saying Jorge moved and caused Rossi to crash... I just figured they needed to understand how racing from behind goes... you hit the guy in front of you (and I'm pretty sure there's no debate that J-Lo was at least 7/8 of his bike in front) its your fault... end of story. It IS a racing incident and we can move on but .......

Geonerd said:

Talpa, please hijacking other people's accounts!







J, you usually make sense.

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As I see it, Lorenzo's change of track position was smooth and predictable; he steered in a straight line to his turn-in point. In Rossi's slight defense, it looks like Lorenzo made up about half a bike length on the brakes, and may not have been visible until Rossi turned in on him. I still see Rossi as the one initiating contact.

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Dude if Vale couldn't see him he should retire...

Jumkie said:

Can we change the subject on the incident and talk about the jump start rule? Watching it a few more times, it looks like Dovi hit the brakes after flinching. He is stopped at the instant the lights go out. Not only that, but he had not crossed the line in his grid marker. Is there a rule that the rider cannot move around while the lights are red? I see the riders moving all the time moments before the lights go out (adjusting ....). If the rider has to get the ride through penalty even for starting at the correct time (as Dovi did) and being completely stopped (as Dovi did) and not crossing the grid marker (as Dovi did), then what is to stop a rider from just leaving and going through the penalty anyway?

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The rule is definitely good the way it is... you move you're busted. Eliminates bias period. I've watched the start a couple of dozen times after Jum mention Rossi moving but all I see is the forks unloading prior to the lights going out... I really don't think his tyre moved. WTF was Dovi doing though... his really early movement precipitated everyone else's movement behind him... mental lapse before the race even started... I'm starting to think Simonspilli deserves the factory ride more that the tortoise that is Dovi.





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WTF every time I quote I get HTML ........

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