Motegi 2010 Moto GP...

LittleEgg · Oct 6, 2010

Tom said:
As far as responsibility for the battle goes, i agree that Lorenzo was coming from behind so he could have called it off at any point. But if you look, Lorenzo was clearly faster and each of his passes on Rossi was clean and respectful and each was met with a considerably more risky and desperate re-pass.

1. The way they have been utterly non commital so far over the winter testing? and now this? Rossi has nothing to thank yamaha for, he and burgess+ co have made them the number one outfit.....and now they are siding with the future number one rider(in yamaha

) over something so pathetic. If rossi dedicated his remaining years to yamaha, they wouldnt be taking the attitude they have taken.

2. Clean and respectful? what trying to cut rossi's nose off at 180mph is respectful? The one moment which looked to be anything close to dangerous was when lorenzo took the outside line and tried to cut off rossi's nose......and failed.

Tom · Oct 6, 2010

Motrix450 said:
Sure, he should be thankful to Yamaha but they need to thank Rossi much much more. He could have stayed at Honda like many past champions have done and he would have wrapped up the same amount of championships, if not more... Sure if he had done this, everyone would have said that he won only because he is on the best bike blah blah blah...we all know the story. He left Honda for Yamaha for a new challenge, he was sick of the Honda politics saying its the bike that is more important. Rossi went out the next season, and won straight up. He proved Honda wrong.

He has won everything there is to win, so clearly folks are jealous and sick of him winning.

Bottom line is Yamaha needs to thank Rossi bigtime, because without him they would have never won a championship...never. And today Lorenzo would maybe have been Rossi's teamate at Honda and not at Yamaha...

Get real. Rossi didn't leave Honda in some selfless act to make motogp closer for everyone else. He decided that the motivation he would get from going to Yamaha was worth more than staying with Honda. Assuming Rossi made the right decision to leave HRC it stands to reason that his results and achievements had he stayed may not have been as good as they are. I don't think its reasonable to extrapolate that staying at Honda would have allowed Rossi to maintain his 2003 form indefinitely. Rossi and Yamaha were a team and owe each other thanks equally

michaelm · Oct 6, 2010

J4rn0 said:
Maybe. Certainly Rossi did not get any advantage out of that "cutting" by 2 (two) centimeters in the sand... But I can see that here we are interpreting the rules in a very formal way, ignoring the real reason of their existence (which is that by cutting you create a more advantageous line for yourself). Moreover, he did not pass Stoner by cutting -- he hit the sand when the pass was already initiated.

Rossi's detractors now are busy trying to find fault with him in any way -- like the Spanish press, that now is bringing up an imaginary "jump start" at Motegi. I saw the clip, he just moves his body, not the bike -- and again, anyway, certainly he did not get any advantage from doing that, on the contrary he spoilt his start completely.

All this reminds me also of that time Rossi had to start last at Qatar because Gibernau had complained about his team "rubberizing" his start position for the race. He then crashed in the race trying to return to the front. Rossi was so pissed for that episode. that Gibernau never won another GP again.

I was (mainly) joking about the corkscrew incident (it was not a pass as you say), but I think I was strictly correct in terms of the current F1 rule as tom delineates; you are not allowed to maintain a position in F1 by going off the track . I have my own opinion concerning the corkscrew 2008 which differs from yours, but I don't consider it to have been "dirty".

At the risk of offending posters with whom I usually share common purpose, this thread has gone right off the rails. I don't mind a little bashing of extreme rossi fans (among whom I do not number you), and am all for pointing out the double standards commonly exhibited by such fans and occasionally by rossi himself, or arguing against the discrediting of riders who have legitimately/deservedly won championships.

This thread however has mainly devolved to bashing rossi himself. He is not St Francis of Assisi, but he is indisputably fairly close to being an incomparably great bike racer. He does on occasion exhibit a certain on track bloody-mindedness/ruthlessness as have most (?all) of his ilk, most recently one Michael Doohan. But to say he is an unsafe rider when he has probably as you say caused the fewest accidents (and made the fewest riding errors) of any rider in history is ludicrous.

Tom · Oct 6, 2010

Rob said:
2. Clean and respectful? what trying to cut rossi's nose off at 180mph is respectful? The one moment which looked to be anything close to dangerous was when lorenzo took the outside line and tried to cut off rossi's nose......and failed.

We must have watched a different race because when i watched the race (about 20 minutes ago) nobody passed anyone on the outside.

Tom · Oct 6, 2010

michaelm said:
He does on occasion exhibit a certain on track bloody-mindedness/ruthlessness as have most (?all) of his ilk, most recently one Michael Doohan. But to say he is an unsafe rider when he has probably as you say caused the fewest accidents (and made the fewest riding errors) of any rider in history is ludicrous.

Absolutely right i think

LittleEgg · Oct 6, 2010

Tom said:
We must have watched a different race because when i watched the race (about 20 minutes ago) nobody passed anyone on the outside.

You are right.....because rossi maintained his line, and lorenzo was forced to concede.

Besides i never said he took rossi on the outside, i said he took the outside line and tried to cut rossi's nose off.....and failed.

Tom · Oct 6, 2010

Rob said:
You are right.....because rossi maintained his line, and lorenzo was forced to concede.

By 'maintained his line' you mean lunged forward almost off the track and forced Lorenzo off of his line. But yes i know what you are talking about

Talpa · Oct 6, 2010

Mickm is right, thread is ....... Move on Rossi hating cocksuckers, preferably to something more your pace like croquet.....

babelfish · Oct 6, 2010

Tom said:
Firstly, Rossi is a Yamaha employee and he should be thankful for everything they have done for him, just as much as they should be thanking him. It's a two way street like any team.

About time to get a job Tom? As an employee there is no need to be thankful for anything. You get paid for your job, that's it.

As it has been this year Yamaha has not exactly been thanking Rossi with their actions. As I see it Rossi is the one responding, (IF that is what he does) not the one with the first strike. Right now it doesn't look pretty and unless JLo wraps up another couple of titles the next two years Lin Jarvis will look like the real fool here.

As far as responsibility for the battle goes, i agree that Lorenzo was coming from behind so he could have called it off at any point. But if you look, Lorenzo was clearly faster and each of his passes on Rossi was clean and respectful and each was met with a considerably more risky and desperate re-pass.

I can't say I agree with you. First of all because JLo clearly were not faster, if so he would have passed and left. The fact that Rossi were able to respond even after several turns disprove that. In the end he even created a small gap. Secondly I would partly agree about the passes in the sense that they were tighter, but that could just as well be attributed to different bikes with different advantages. JLo's softer front maybe enabled him to make the passes look easier or any other minor difference.

Finally, what was the major errors that Rossi did? I ask because I don't see them. The first touch:

He dived on the inside with a faster exit and they touched slightly but only because JLo wanted to block Rossi. He had plenty of track left to the edge. Normally he would have used most of it. Besides, Rossi did the same pass three laps earlier, and it was 100% clean, what changed was that Lorenzo improved his exit. Doesn't make it his fault, it makes it a race incident. Both were equally aggressive.

Finally the harder touch is where they both are a couple of meters off the race line. The reason for this is because JLo held that line and pushed Rossi all the way to the edge. That is not as respectful and clean as it might look like at first glance. Not that I complain, it's racing, not? After being pushed wide Rossi actually does what JLo did in the first incident, he slightly overadjust coming out of the turn. But the same time JLo decide to inititate the next turn and bang into Rossi. With any chances of winning the fight JLo had nothing else to do as the option was to give up. I admire what he did and his will to win, it's even worthy his competitor, but unlike Rossi he didn't take the loss as gracious. What Yamaha did, going public with a badly founded reprimand were nothing but disgusting.

LittleEgg · Oct 6, 2010

Tom said:
By 'maintained his line' you mean lunged forward almost off the track and forced Lorenzo off of his line. But yes i know what you are talking about

Well, actually it was a failed attempt to cut inside rossi and lorenzo ended up running wide....rossi just rode the regular race line and carried much more pace out of the corner. Not actually quite as bad as i remembered....just two riders both pushing to the limit.

I thought it was quite comical actually.

Just watched an italian highlight video, man the commentators are crackers!!!

Anyway great race.

Tom · Oct 6, 2010

Babelfish said:
About time to get a job Tom? As an employee there is no need to be thankful for anything. You get paid for your job, that's it.

As it has been this year Yamaha has not exactly been thanking Rossi with their actions. As I see it Rossi is the one responding, (IF that is what he does) not the one with the first strike. Right now it doesn't look pretty and unless JLo wraps up another couple of titles the next two years Lin Jarvis will look like the real fool here.

I can't say I agree with you. First of all because JLo clearly were not faster, if so he would have passed and left. The fact that Rossi were able to respond even after several turns disprove that. In the end he even created a small gap. Secondly I would partly agree about the passes in the sense that they were tighter, but that could just as well be attributed to different bikes with different advantages. JLo's softer front maybe enabled him to make the passes look easier or any other minor difference.

Finally, what was the major errors that Rossi did? I ask because I don't see them. The first touch:

He dived on the inside with a faster exit and they touched slightly but only because JLo wanted to block Rossi. He had plenty of track left to the edge. Normally he would have used most of it. Besides, Rossi did the same pass three laps earlier, and it was 100% clean, what changed was that Lorenzo improved his exit. Doesn't make it his fault, it makes it a race incident. Both were equally aggressive.

Finally the harder touch is where they both are a couple of meters off the race line. The reason for this is because JLo held that line and pushed Rossi all the way to the edge. That is not as respectful and clean as it might look like at first glance. Not that I complain, it's racing, not? After being pushed wide Rossi actually does what JLo did in the first incident, he slightly overadjust coming out of the turn. But the same time JLo decide to inititate the next turn and bang into Rossi. With any chances of winning the fight JLo had nothing else to do as the option was to give up. I admire what he did and his will to win, it's even worthy his competitor, but unlike Rossi he didn't take the loss as gracious. What Yamaha did, going public with a badly founded reprimand were nothing but disgusting.

I'm sorry but i think Rossi and Yamaha have achieved a lot TOGETHER and should both be thankful to each other for what they have shared. Secondly i think Rossi started the ill feeling by behaving as though the teams actions should all benefit him, most recently when he lied about being prepared to help Jorge. thirdly i don't buy into the Rossi fan standard behaviour pattern of being bitter about any person or organization he divorces, i see no need to go bitcing about Yamaha or calling their behaviour disgusting, they have done exactly as they should.

As far as the battle goes, I'm not sure if you have read the entire thread or if you are just getting in now, but i maintain that Rossi didn't make major errors or race unfairly. I'm not sure if you watched the battle though, because you say Lorenzo failed to escape from Rossi when he led for a few corners when in fact each of Lorenzo's passes was met with a re-pass and the very next turn. This is a classic Rossi tactic, and a very successful one for keeping slower riders behind. I think this would add to Lorenzo's surprise and dissatisfaction with Rossi's riding, it may be unsporting but i think we all agree Lorenzo should have been wiser than to believe Rossi is genuine. But like we have all agreed, all the riders complain when they lose tight battles, so Lorenzo's comments are hardly a large talking point.

Rob said:
Well, actually it was a failed attempt to cut inside rossi and lorenzo ended up running wide....rossi just rode the regular race line and carried much more pace out of the corner. Not actually quite as bad as i remembered....just two riders both pushing to the limit.

I thought it was quite comical actually.

Just watched an italian highlight video, man the commentators are crackers!!!

Anyway great race.

I'm not sure how much racing you watch, but if you've seen a few GP's at Motegi before you'll know that Lorenzo's pass was at a normal and legitimate passing place, although close he made the pass and had the line, but if you watch you can see Rossi lunge forward where a rider would normally concede the corner and force himself into a gap that wasn't really there and force both riders considerably off the racing line. That's what seperates Rossi from most other riders, he will not concede at any cost. In hindsight its not surprising that he would make Lorenzo's life as difficult as possible regardless of what he says or who his employer is. Valentino is obviously desperate to prove himself and get anything he can out of his most difficult season to date, it just goes to show how much harder he's having to work to stay competitive these days and how rattled his oponents have got him.

LittleEgg · Oct 6, 2010

Tom said:
I'm sorry but i think Rossi and Yamaha have achieved a lot TOGETHER and should both be thankful to each other for what they have shared. Secondly i think Rossi started the ill feeling by behaving as though the teams actions should all benefit him, most recently when he lied about being prepared to help Jorge. thirdly i don't buy into the Rossi fan standard behaviour pattern of being bitter about any person or organization he divorces, i see no need to go bitcing about Yamaha or calling their behaviour disgusting, they have done exactly as they should.

As far as the battle goes, I'm not sure if you have read the entire thread or if you are just getting in now, but i maintain that Rossi didn't make major errors or race unfairly. I'm not sure if you watched the battle though, because you say Lorenzo failed to escape from Rossi when he led for a few corners when in fact each of Lorenzo's passes was met with a re-pass and the very next turn. This is a classic Rossi tactic, and a very successful one for keeping slower riders behind. I think this would add to Lorenzo's surprise and dissatisfaction with Rossi's riding, it may be unsporting but i think we all agree Lorenzo should have been wiser than to believe Rossi is genuine. But like we have all agreed, all the riders complain when they lose tight battles, so Lorenzo's comments are hardly a large talking point.

I'm not sure how much racing you watch, but if you've seen a few GP's at Motegi before you'll know that Lorenzo's pass was at a normal and legitimate passing place, although close he made the pass and had the line, but if you watch you can see Rossi lunge forward where a rider would normally concede the corner and force himself into a gap that wasn't really there and force both riders considerably off the racing line. That's what seperates Rossi from most other riders, he will not concede at any cost. In hindsight its not surprising that he would make Lorenzo's life as difficult as possible regardless of what he says or who his employer is. Valentino is obviously desperate to prove himself and get anything he can out of his most difficult season to date, it just goes to show how much harder he's having to work to stay competitive these days and how rattled his oponents have got him.

Hmmmm he has made similar moves for years.....so not sure about being rattled "these days" as you put it.

Besides the rattled one was the spanish kid....who needed a rattle after the race.

Tom · Oct 6, 2010

Rob said:
Hmmmm he has made similar moves for years.....so not sure about being rattled "these days" as you put it.

Besides the rattled one was the spanish kid....who needed a rattle after the race.

Yes but pulling moves like that for 3rd place at the end of a season he has lost, when he has been displaced from his team for a younger rider who is almost certain to win the world title. It's new ground for Rossi. I think its brilliant, we've seen what happens when Rossi is motivated by rivalry and we've seen how he rises to new challenges. It seems to be getting harder for Rossi every time so the scene is set for an exciting few years. This years battle is over but the war is far from it

DRILL · Oct 6, 2010

The handbags are out then?

Motrix · Oct 6, 2010

Tom said:
Get real. Rossi didn't leave Honda in some selfless act to make motogp closer for everyone else. He decided that the motivation he would get from going to Yamaha was worth more than staying with Honda. Assuming Rossi made the right decision to leave HRC it stands to reason that his results and achievements had he stayed may not have been as good as they are. I don't think its reasonable to extrapolate that staying at Honda would have allowed Rossi to maintain his 2003 form indefinitely. Rossi and Yamaha were a team and owe each other thanks equally

I have always been real...

I never said he left in some selfless act...he left because Honda is as it has always been...they give more importance to the motorcycle, and Rossi proved them wrong right off the bat. You should give respect where respect is due...

He left for a new challenge is what I said, and yes he probably could have won more had he stayed at Honda, but we will never know, and whether its 8, 9, 10 championships, who cares. he's number one, period and he's proved it on many occasions and he has really nothing else to prove. Now we have a Lorenzo that is trying to emulate what Valentino has always done. Ok he is an awesome rider and will win again, but all his post race demonstrations...get real, stop copying .... someone else has done and be more original... This is the only part I do not like of Lorenzo. I met him in his last 250 season and very cool kid. It will however be interesting in 2012 when Lorenzo will have to develop the 1000cc bike...next year will be relatively easy for him...but come 2012 it could be another story.

Rossi now has made another huge decision to leave yamaha for yet another challenge. Lets see how it goes. He will now even more tifosi.

Tom · Oct 6, 2010

Motrix450 said:
I have always been real...

I never said he left in some selfless act...he left because Honda is as it has always been...they give more importance to the motorcycle, and Rossi proved them wrong right off the bat. You should give respect where respect is due...

He left for a new challenge is what I said, and yes he probably could have won more had he stayed at Honda, but we will never know, and whether its 8, 9, 10 championships, who cares. he's number one, period and he's proved it on many occasions and he has really nothing else to prove. Now we have a Lorenzo that is trying to emulate what Valentino has always done. Ok he is an awesome rider and will win again, but all his post race demonstrations...get real, stop copying .... someone else has done and be more original... This is the only part I do not like of Lorenzo. I met him in his last 250 season and very cool kid. It will however be interesting in 2012 when Lorenzo will have to develop the 1000cc bike...next year will be relatively easy for him...but come 2012 it could be another story.

Rossi now has made another huge decision to leave yamaha for yet another challenge. Lets see how it goes. He will now even more tifosi.

I do give respect where it is due, of course Honda give importance to the motorcycle because that is what they are trying to sell. Rossi wasn't 'proving' that the rider was more important than the bike, if that was the case he would have ridden the inferior Yamaha as it was rather than demanding it was changed to and developed and made into the superior bike it became. The bike is important, Rossi knows it. The point was that HE wanted all credit and reward for the bike to be his and his alone, its a very romantic image but it is rather unrealistic and selfish.

Rossi is number one at the moment, but he has lost his title and there will be a new number 1 soon enough, then it will be on Rossi to prove once again he can be number 1. As for Lorenzo trying to emulate what Rossi has done... Winning. It has worked, so well done to him because not many other people have managed it.

rossiofsky · Oct 6, 2010

Ngads said:
The fact of the matter is, if Lorenzo won he wouldn't be complaining and it would Rossi saying the racing was unfair. Each of them wanted to arrive in front of the other. It's only natural for the one who lost to be complaining. If the racing was unfair, race direction would've gotten involved. It was aggressive, but nothing worse than the Rossi-Gibernau battle at Jerez. Either way, i'm not complaining because it was fun to watch!

+1

I enjoyed it like when Casey overtook Rossi in last corner of the last lap, a few races ago. and that was ALSO for the 3th place.

Keshav · Oct 6, 2010

michaelm said:
One injury rather than none still probably leaves him as close to the safest rider in history statistically given the length of his career/number of races competed.

To be sure. My point however - was not all about Rossi per se, but rather the principal of safe (a relative term of course)

racing in general. I'm not all about censuring Rossi. I was equally (more so actually) vehement regarding Simoncelli's

rough riding antics when he was riding his last seasons in the 250 class.

rossiofsky · Oct 6, 2010

povol said:
Ever heard of a manufacturer title, its a pretty big deal.

Besides, only one of the participants in this cat fight is eligible for the riders title, the other had an ego explosion for THIRD.

Ever heard of Nikky Hayden, What happend to him in Japan? Continue talking .... about other rider's if that helps you to calm your REAL pain. yes Rossi got ONLY a podium (a Third place), while your favorite couldn't do even that, when Casey on the same bike won the race Easily.

heyhuub · Oct 6, 2010

Haga and Fabrizio made more contact in the first 2 laps of race 2 in France than Rossi made with anyone in the last 3 seasons. Bunch of wimps.

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