Motegi 2010 Moto GP...

Pigeon, Talpa, J4rno, Woody, and a few others, etal. Check out these quotes. Notice how starkly similar these reactions are after a close racing exchange.



Casey Stoner:

"I have been racing for a long time and I have seen a lot of close overtaking passes. I have had them done on me, I´ve done them myself and there is close riding, aggressive riding and then the point that is a little bit over that line." Stoner's reaction after a racing exchange in which he lost with Rossi, Laguna Seca GP

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Jorge Lorenzo:

"I have to say that at some points I do not think he was completely fair, we were both on the limit but some of his moves were maybe a bit too much and he touched me and pushed me wide when I don't think it was right. Lorenzo's reaction after a racing exchange in which he lost with Rossi, Motegi GP

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Valentino Rossi:

"I'm quite unhappy with Elias today because I think he was quite dangerous - more than once he passed me on the inside and then altered his line. This is not a correct way to race." Rossi's reaction after a racing exchange in which he lost with Elias, Istanbul GP

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Are these quotes by the riders similar?



After the incident, did the majority of spectators have a matching or similar reaction to the three rider's quotes above?

MdubSTYLIE said:

Good stuff from both Jorge and Vale. That puts the score 2-0 in favor of Rossi in epic battles so far. Hell that puts jorge 0-2 in battles for the podium in the last two races. I think this just may bring out the Jorge of old. He has been very miserable the last couple of races. Anyone notice him all slumped over on the grid before the start of the race? I thought he was sick or something. My point is he isn't acting like someone on the verge of being crowned champion, and he also isn't acting like his flamboyant self. IMO he hasn't been right since Tomi's accident. I think he may be having a hard time dealing with it. Total speculation, I know, but he just doesn't seem like Jorge right now. Whatever it is that is bothering him he needs to come to grips with it, and hopefully he does.

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I would hazard to say that the only thing weighing heavily on Lorenzo's mind - has been the idea that he was down to

one remaining fresh engine - with five races to go - while Pedrosa had been winning more top podium spots than ever on

a well-developed Honda that showed no signs of fatigue. As Kropotkin has attested - racers devote 98% of their brain power on two things; going fast and going faster.

who's going to catch jlo in the championship? i doubt pedbot will be racing next race...jorge finishes top 5..doesn't that guarantee him the trophy?

Jumkie said:

Pigeon, Talpa, J4rno, Woody, and a few others, etal. Check out these quotes. Notice how starkly similar these reactions are after a close racing exchange.



Casey Stoner:





Jorge Lorenzo:





Valentino Rossi:







Are these quotes by the riders similar?



After the incident, did the majority of spectators have a matching or similar reaction to the three rider's quotes above?

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Yes they all had very similar reactions. I have never said anything else on that. My comments are from a spectators perspective. I am happy to see all of those battles and I know Rossi hasn't won them all.

Jumkie said:

After the incident, did the majority of spectators have a matching or similar reaction to the three rider's quotes above?

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This is a very salient point; as tom says they all complain when they lose , even rossi .



This is all the more reason why lorenzo's post-race complaint and particularly his involvement of yamaha is strategically stupid, particularly given that he knew the reaction to stoner's complaint, who imo had more reason to complain (which is different to saying complaining was a good idea). This will be used by sections of the media as a stick with which to beat jorge with from now on, especially if you include internet forums in the media.



Jorge also went beyond complaining that some of rossi's passes were too hard, which is possibly arguable, to essentially saying rossi should have conceded the place and asking yamaha to back him on that point. Given that pedrosa could not take points from him in this race and that his and rossi's finishing order was immaterial to the manufacturer's championship I can only assume he considered rossi should concede to him because he is the number 1 rider, which some might consider a little rich.

double

michaelm said:

This is all the more reason why lorenzo's post-race complaint and particularly his involvement of yamaha is strategically stupid, particularly given that he knew the reaction to stoner's complaint, who imo had more reason to complain (which is different to saying complaining was a good idea). This will be used by sections of the media as a stick with which to beat jorge with from now on, especially if you include internet forums in the media.



Jorge also went beyond complaining that some of rossi's passes were too hard, which is possibly arguable, to essentially saying rossi should have conceded the place and asking yamaha to back him on that point. Given that pedrosa could not take points from him in this race and that his and rossi's finishing order was immaterial to the manufacturer's championship I can only assume he considered rossi should concede to him because he is the number 1 rider, which some might consider a little rich.

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U dismissed the alternative.

michaelm said:

Jorge also went beyond complaining that some of rossi's passes were too hard, which is possibly arguable, to essentially saying rossi should have conceded the place and asking yamaha to back him on that point. Given that pedrosa could not take points from him in this race and that his and rossi's finishing order was immaterial to the manufacturer's championship I can only assume he considered rossi should concede to him because he is the number 1 rider, which some might consider a little rich.

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Michael, I (not surprisingly many will say) disagree in part with what you say here.



It is definitely true that Pedrosa could not take points from Lorenzo in the race itself, but at the same time the gap was 54 points at the time of the battle itself and as history has proven, 54 points can be rundown. For mine, JL is justified to have expected Yamaha to have directed VR to 'not take unnecessary points' from JL as until the gap is mathematically insurmountable then the championship is not settled.



The over-riding point to all this is that if VR stuffed up (and given his mistakes this year it was NOT going to happen as he had reached his yearly quota), but IF he did and took out JL the results for JL's championship could have been astronomical. Yes it is a big IF and as has been shown it did not happen so is purely speculation, but it was a risk and one that I am certain JL and VR both knew, yet due to the animosity neither was ever going to concede.



As it sits now, if DP can ride at the remaining 4 races he needs to make up 69 points for the title, doubtful and given his injury it would be remarkable if he even gets close. But as this year has shown, one incident can render a season ended and at this stage of the season no doubt JL wants and (IMO) rightfully expects that the least of his concern should be his team mate.













Gaz

Jumkie said:

U dismissed the alternative.

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The double standards of the more extreme rossi fans goes without saying, I am in a good mood after casey's performance and have chosen not to get into that in this thread. My attitude is admittedly also influenced by me not being a particular lorenzo fan .



I do genuinely think in this case that lorenzo picked the fight when he didn't need to due to ego, a similar motive to pedrosa's in 2006. Dani was still mathematically in the championship then I guess as opposed to rossi now, but hayden and hence honda's position was precarious which lorenzo's is not. Rossi's moves were at least feasible and competently executed which dani's was not. If dani was in the race and in particular if he was ahead of both yamaha riders rossi's actions would not be even arguably supportable, but we will never know whether he would have proceeded similarly; I think not.

The last thing I want to see is team orders.

They should all keep riding 'to the maximum' with no free passes. Motegi was an example of what happens when two ultra competitive number 1 riders end up in the same team. I don't want anyone rigging results so that either Lorenzo or Rossi wins a championship. What about betting markets and people who bet that Lorenzo wouldn't get a podium? Is it too much to ask all the riders to try maximise their position at all times?



The thing I didn't like about last year's championship was that Rossi didn't always race to win at the end. He rode smart and you can't fault him for that but I wanted to see him ride for the win like he always did earlier in his career.

That was a fun battle. When professional racers are in the process of negotiating the hierarchy of talent on the grid, lines will be blurred, things may even get ugly. This was about more than a points championship: Lorenzo wants to establish himself as the best. He is a competitor of the highest degree and can settle for nothing less than proving himself against the current king of the sport. Rossi missed out on the title fight due to his injury and the subsequent recovery process. Now that The Doctor seems to be feeling like his old self again, he wants to show everyone he isn't beaten yet; remember, even before Mugello many were saying Rossi had been eclipsed by his teammate. The battle of Japan was Rossi saying, "I'm still here."



While I feel Rossi's blatant crash tactics used at Jerez in '05 and Laguna in '08 were disgraceful and deserved penalties, the tough racing at Motegi was permissible and could perhaps have been avoided by Lorenzo racing smarter and out-running his team mate. The only thing that bugged me was how far Rossi extended his right leg braking into the downhill right-hander, almost as if he were blocking Lorenzo into taking a tighter line. Hopefully the next time Rossi hangs his leg out in the way, the following rider will hold his line and bump it out of the way.

woody996 said:

The last thing I want to see is team orders.

They should all keep riding 'to the maximum' with no free passes. Motegi was an example of what happens when two ultra competitive number 1 riders end up in the same team. I don't want anyone rigging results so that either Lorenzo or Rossi wins a championship. What about betting markets and people who bet that Lorenzo wouldn't get a podium? Is it too much to ask all the riders to try maximise their position at all times?



The thing I didn't like about last year's championship was that Rossi didn't always race to win at the end. He rode smart and you can't fault him for that but I wanted to see him ride for the win like he always did earlier in his career.

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In this case, you are wrong. If Rossi was still in the championship, i would agree. He has the duty as a paid employee of Yamaha Racing to do anything in his power to guarantee success, even if it means checking in his enormous ego at the gate. I have no problem with that kind of racing, i do have problem with that kind of racing between teammates when one is eliminated from the championship and thinks he has a point to prove.Rossi let his self infatuation get in the way of common sense. If he isnt really careful, Yamaha could give him a going away present, such as a specially tuned bike that is capable of 10th place so he cant pitch his tantrums at the front

povol said:

In this case, you are wrong. If Rossi was still in the championship, i would agree. He has the duty as a paid employee of Yamaha Racing to do anything in his power to guarantee success, even if it means checking in his enormous ego at the gate. I have no problem with that kind of racing, i do have problem with that kind of racing between teammates when one is eliminated from the championship and thinks he has a point to prove.Rossi let his self infatuation get in the way of common sense. If he isnt really careful, Yamaha could give him a going away present, such as a specially tuned bike that is capable of 10th place so he cant pitch his tantrums at the front

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Have to disagree. It was a pissing competition and Lorenzo came up short. (on that occasion)



Two egos at play, Lorenzo stuck his .... in the hornets nest. He should have known better.

povol said:

In this case, you are wrong. If Rossi was still in the championship, i would agree. He has the duty as a paid employee of Yamaha Racing to do anything in his power to guarantee success, even if it means checking in his enormous ego at the gate. I have no problem with that kind of racing, i do have problem with that kind of racing between teammates when one is eliminated from the championship and thinks he has a point to prove.Rossi let his self infatuation get in the way of common sense. If he isnt really careful, Yamaha could give him a going away present, such as a specially tuned bike that is capable of 10th place so he cant pitch his tantrums at the front

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Incidently I can't be wrong by expressing my view on the way I'd like to see things work. It is subjective, I'm not talking about facts except for rossi's riding last year. It's a view, you have a different view and you are also entitled to it.

Mr. Shupe said:

The battle of Japan was Rossi saying, "I'm still here."

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When in reality he is not anywhere near "still here" in this years WC, and indeed it has gone for him long ago. It could have been however very costly for both Lorenzo and Yamaha. And given that it wasn't actually that great a spectacle, though I note many boppers feel otherwise, given the fact that it was doddling around down at 3rd place do you risk getting a dribble of a "feelgood" at the expense of both Lorenzo and/or Yamaha.

The funny things is that this year of all has been the one year one can see that Rossi's "persona" has somewhat soured witin the rest of the riding public, episodes like this, though a "crumb of hope" for the boppers, don't make friends amongst the paddock. The incidient itself was pretty minimal and happens amongst the back markers regularly out of camera usually eg. Bautista, Simoncelli and Barbera and their almost weekly stoushes are often missed. The difference is so many fans needed a "feelgood" "fixer upper" so they start calling any slight match a "battle of the century"



Again I stipulate that the one thing that a racer would see is ....... "does the outcome warrant it?" ..... the value of "a big UP to the Boppers" and ones own ego, and Dorna's pocket, and a ..... at Yam, was far outweighed by the fact that Lorenzo could have lost the title here let alone gotten hurt. There was just too much "bitchiness" in the motivation of it all to be even remotely entertaining other than the entertainment of seeing how desperate things have gotten for Rossi this year, and indeed the "slapfest of the millenium" is not what we would see in a confident wellperforming Rossi.

michaelm said:

The double standards of the more extreme rossi fans goes without saying, I am in a good mood after casey's performance and have chosen not to get into that in this thread. My attitude is admittedly also influenced by me not being a particular lorenzo fan.

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U dismissed the alternative again.



Why dismiss their assessment so quickly? Just mayb some or all those rider comments wer right. If nobody crashes we say, u see, its all fair. Hell even when they crash we chalk it up to just another racing incident. But is it really? Of course the false argument is: we all want to see "close" racing, as if by categorizing all contact as simply close racing must therefore mean its magically fair. If u want to really champion for "close" but fair racing, pay special attention to Spies. Do urself a favor and look up WSBK 09 Assen race 1. That is a clinic in what is really "close" & "fair" racing.

Jorge has now gone on record and vowed to take it to Rossi once the title is settled. If something catastrophic happens to Rossi, lets see how you feel then.



"It's the sort of behaviour he has already displayed in the past with Gibernau and Stoner. Now it's been my turn, but I'm not like them. Should we fight side by side again once the title is won, I'll do things his way."

woody996 said:

Have to disagree. It was a pissing competition and Lorenzo came up short. (on that occasion)



Two egos at play, Lorenzo stuck his .... in the hornets nest. He should have known better.

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Agreed, he should never have believed a word Rossi said.

povol said:

Jorge has now gone on record and vowed to take it to Rossi once the title is settled. If something catastrophic happens to Rossi, lets see how you feel then.



"It's the sort of behaviour he has already displayed in the past with Gibernau and Stoner. Now it's been my turn, but I'm not like them. Should we fight side by side again once the title is won, I'll do things his way."

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It wont happen. Dorna has prob already warned them for obvious reasons. Plus i dont believe Lorenzo would follow thru. Easy said but not easy done. He, like Stoner, has displayed a strong sense of self preservation. Its almost a reflex, and those very nonvoluntary functions.



Povol, i realize ur link challenged, so wher did u read above quote?



This is what i read, which is simlar but without the gauntlet:



"The three or four moves I made on Valentino I thought were correct and fair. His movements were legal but on the limit, from my point of you. I think it is the way he likes to fight - before with Gibernau and Stoner, and now with me. Maybe in the future his rivals will get a little bit mad and act like him."

Jumkie said:

U dismissed the alternative again.



Why dismiss their assessment so quickly? Just mayb some or all those rider comments wer right. If nobody crashes we say, u see, its all fair. Hell even when they crash we chalk it up to just another racing incident. But is it really? Of course the false argument is: we all want to see "close" racing, as if by categorizing all contact as simply close racing must therefore mean its magically fair. If u want to really champion for "close" but fair racing, pay special attention to Spies. Do urself a favor and look up WSBK 09 Assen race 1. That is a clinic in what is really "close" & "fair" racing.

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Sure, I watch the wsbk races, actually with more interest last year when spies was racing, and even saw quite a few replays of spies v mladin in the AMA superbikes. He passes precisely and decisively, and does not complain even about mladin.