Mat Oxley on CRT bikes

Dr No · Feb 14, 2013

I took a pile of photos at the Island Classic. I'll post them when I work out how...

Pretty sure Tainton is involved. Got to check.But the cool .... was everywhere. Little Bultacos, TZ750s, Laverda SFCs, stonkin' 1000+s, Manxes, a Paton....some Ago guy.

Great event. Anyone can just wander into garages...

Even the weather was good.

Mental Anarchist · Feb 14, 2013

So we should accept that there have always been a spread of quality when it comes to bikes in GP? How about all those that called the racing boring during the 800 era accept that there has always been a spread of quality when it comes to riders? We would not be where we are today with a second string ........ class filling the grid if Dorna and the Journalists just accepted that for the entire history of GP bike racing the best riders on the best bikes have ridden off into the distance, rather than constantly talking the sport down. This is how it has always been and if it was allowed to stay a sport then that is the way it will always be.

I vote go all prototypes or go all CRT. .... this half and half .....

Keshav · Feb 14, 2013

Dr No

3434601360836509

I took a pile of photos at the Island Classic. I'll post them when I work out how...

Pretty sure Tainton is involved. Got to check.But the cool .... was everywhere. Little Bultacos, TZ750s, Laverda SFCs, stonkin' 1000+s, Manxes, a Paton....some Ago guy.

Great event. Anyone can just wander into garages...

Even the weather was good.

Open a (free) photobucket account and paste them direct to any post you put up. It doesn't slow down the Powerslide Server and they will show up on the page in large format and look much better.

mylexicon · Feb 14, 2013

Mental Anarchist

3434631360844223

I vote go all prototypes or go all CRT. .... this half and half .....

They don't need to choose one or the other. They just need to unwind all of the dumb changes they've made during the last decade. They only needed to switch GP to four-stroke, and fix the homologation rules for WSBK so the manufacturers didn't have to build 750cc homologation specials. Somehow GP and SBK ended up with identical capacity, engine cycle, and equipment (essentially), and we got a contract that prohibited teams from running production equipment in GP, though production equipment is a subset of competition motorcycles. Production bikes cannot be excluded from GP competition no matter what the Italians say.

SBK needs its own displacement identity so we don't have to listen to whining from the teams, fans, and organizers about homogeneity and artificial CRT bikes. Everything on SBKs should be production, not stock necessarily, just production (homologated or available on the open market). Then they need to ditch the current fuel capacity sanctioning method, and develop something that draws the interest of manufacturers, sponsors, and private teams.

Jumkie · Feb 14, 2013

Ah, yes. To make GP legit, lets .... up Wsbk. Good plan.

Pigeon · Feb 15, 2013

Dorna and there rule thinking up ministers are great we should let then run the worlds economies

mylexicon · Feb 15, 2013

Jumkie

3434811360906698

Ah, yes. To make GP legit, lets .... up Wsbk. Good plan.

Specifically, how is WSBK going to be ruined by using production parts in a production series and creating a unique identity with displacement?

Andy Roo · Feb 15, 2013

mylexicon

3435831360977772

Specifically, how is WSBK going to be ruined by using production parts in a production series and creating a unique identity with displacement?

I love proddie racing - I think the fact that you cannot get it on the TV in the States and the marketing and promotion to the deliberate detriment of the series to bolster motogp is something that will be an issue.

You are the marketing whiz, what do you normally do when you buy your competitor out?

Salary caps? Riders like Rossi cannot play one series off against the other? I don't really know, I do know that I don't like Dorna/Bridgepoint having both.

Dr No · Feb 15, 2013

mylexicon

3434741360881457

They don't need to choose one or the other. They just need to unwind all of the dumb changes they've made during the last decade. They only needed to switch GP to four-stroke, and fix the homologation rules for WSBK so the manufacturers didn't have to build 750cc homologation specials. Somehow GP and SBK ended up with identical capacity, engine cycle, and equipment (essentially), and we got a contract that prohibited teams from running production equipment in GP, though production equipment is a subset of competition motorcycles. Production bikes cannot be excluded from GP competition no matter what the Italians say.

SBK needs its own displacement identity so we don't have to listen to whining from the teams, fans, and organizers about homogeneity and artificial CRT bikes. Everything on SBKs should be production, not stock necessarily, just production (homologated or available on the open market). Then they need to ditch the current fuel capacity sanctioning method, and develop something that draws the interest of manufacturers, sponsors, and private teams.

You left the riders out of list. Make the bikes too crapulent and it may no longer be the pinnacle to strive for. Might be cheaper, less hassle and more lucrative to wander to say, BSB.

mylexicon · Feb 15, 2013

Andy Roo

3435841360982841

I love proddie racing - I think the fact that you cannot get it on the TV in the States and the marketing and promotion to the deliberate detriment of the series to bolster motogp is something that will be an issue.

You are the marketing whiz, what do you normally do when you buy your competitor out?

Salary caps? Riders like Rossi cannot play one series off against the other? I don't really know, I do know that I don't like Dorna/Bridgepoint having both.

If the US has no TV contract, we might get free internet streaming. In the long run, I think Dorna will create an online service like the MotoGP website, which will be better for many fans. Coverage will improve, imo, b/c Dorna has the personnel, technical partners, equipment, and media outlets to produce and excellent show.

Regarding sanctioning, I've probably bored everyone with my ramblings. However, I will say that fuel-flow-limiting is becoming much more intriguing. I've been reading every scrap I can find, and it turns out that fuel-flow-limiting technologies have been created as part of a bid process for FIA/ACO competition. Several companies have the systems and the personnel to administrate the technology so it's a turnkey sanctioning method. This could create a more fair method of balancing power between twins, triples, and fours in WSBK. I would use FFL to return to 750s (maybe 800s) and I would do something clever like set max twin capacity at 917cc to throw Ducati a marketing bone.

When you own Pepsi and Coke, you differentiate and you enjoy the profits.

mylexicon · Feb 15, 2013

Dr No

3435861360993142

You left the riders out of list. Make the bikes too crapulent and it may no longer be the pinnacle to strive for. Might be cheaper, less hassle and more lucrative to wander to say, BSB.

True. However, I tend to think this problem is a derivative of underpaid riders in international competition. Not sure how to solve that problem effectively, but goading them into international competition with shiny bikes seems like a precarious long term strategy.

Dr No · Feb 17, 2013

It depends

mylexicon

3435891361000741

True. However, I tend to think this problem is a derivative of underpaid riders in international competition. Not sure how to solve that problem effectively, but goading them into international competition with shiny bikes seems like a precarious long term strategy.

And a strategy that may become less effective as the bikes become less 'shiny'.

An anecdote.

A good friend of mine has a brother who competed in 500GP in the late 90s. On a very average, underfunded Paggett's YZR500. Basically unpaid. But he did it as that class represented the absolute pinnacle of motorcycle racing. Yes, his bike was a nail, but it running under the same regs as Mr Doohan's rocketship....And who of us could deny the idea of being able to say: I raced a 500.

Last time he was in OZ we asked him about CRTs. And his view was that there was no way he'd bother making the sacrifices he did to get on a crap 500.

[This is also the reason why I don't understand people questioning why you'd bother spending money just to come 10th.]

mylexicon · Feb 17, 2013

Dr No

3436601361150705

I raced a 500.

Without a doubt, the bike's brand is very important. The 500s were revered. The 990s were legendary. The 750cc SBK specials were renowned. I saw an RC45 the other day, and I nearly crashed as I lusted after it. But the 800s, which were better than the 990s by nearly every performance metric, are almost universally loathed. The 1000s, which are faster than both the 990s and the 800s, are still not particularly popular. The 1000cc SBKs, which are immensely more capable than the old 750s, are not popular, relatively speaking.

Branding is complicated, but performance superlatives do not seem to be critical. The bikes must have a purpose that people understand, and the organizers have to develop the purpose as times change. SBK was once the motivation to build the most advanced road-going bikes ever seen. Now, the manufacturers turn cookie-cutters (albeit, very good cookie-cutters) into GP replicas. GP was about using relatively free design to develop meaningful performance gains. No longer. GP technical restrictions are piling up, and fuel-capacity-limitation has created a confusing interpretation of 'racing' and 'meaningful technology'.

I understand that many riders would think twice about riding a CRT. CRT only exists to address problems with the technical regulations and the GP business model. They are an unfortunate necessity, not necessarily an aspirational machine for riders. But when someone says "don't ruin my favorite series", I wonder if they understand the sport at all. There is nothing left to ruin. GP and SBK exist in name only.

Dr No · Feb 17, 2013

The fact that I enjoyed the Phillip Island Classic about 100 times more than my last half dozen trips to the place for SBK and GP (full access) speaks volumes to your statement that there's nothing left to ruin.

thedeal · Feb 18, 2013

mylexicon

3435881361000627

If the US has no TV contract, we might get free internet streaming. In the long run, I think Dorna will create an online service like the MotoGP website, which will be better for many fans. Coverage will improve, imo, b/c Dorna has the personnel, technical partners, equipment, and media outlets to produce and excellent show.

Regarding sanctioning, I've probably bored everyone with my ramblings. However, I will say that fuel-flow-limiting is becoming much more intriguing. I've been reading every scrap I can find, and it turns out that fuel-flow-limiting technologies have been created as part of a bid process for FIA/ACO competition. Several companies have the systems and the personnel to administrate the technology so it's a turnkey sanctioning method. This could create a more fair method of balancing power between twins, triples, and fours in WSBK. I would use FFL to return to 750s (maybe 800s) and I would do something clever like set max twin capacity at 917cc to throw Ducati a marketing bone.

When you own Pepsi and Coke, you differentiate and you enjoy the profits.

mylexicon

3435881361000627

If the US has no TV contract, we might get free internet streaming. In the long run, I think Dorna will create an online service like the MotoGP website, which will be better for many fans. Coverage will improve, imo, b/c Dorna has the personnel, technical partners, equipment, and media outlets to produce and excellent show.

Regarding sanctioning, I've probably bored everyone with my ramblings. However, I will say that fuel-flow-limiting is becoming much more intriguing. I've been reading every scrap I can find, and it turns out that fuel-flow-limiting technologies have been created as part of a bid process for FIA/ACO competition. Several companies have the systems and the personnel to administrate the technology so it's a turnkey sanctioning method. This could create a more fair method of balancing power between twins, triples, and fours in WSBK. I would use FFL to return to 750s (maybe 800s) and I would do something clever like set max twin capacity at 917cc to throw Ducati a marketing bone.

When you own Pepsi and Coke, you differentiate and you enjoy the profits.

Are you on crack lex??? why would the factorys want to re-tool to make 750s/800s when the class has had its time and is dead?? how would that be a marketing bone for Ducati when they would also have to do the above in the worst recession for a century not to mention they have spent millions on their exiting models.

message to self never go into business with lex.

BJ.C · Feb 18, 2013

Dr No

3436601361150705

And his view was that there was no way he'd bother making the sacrifices he did to get on a crap 500.

I'm confused... didn't he do exactly that?

Dr No · Feb 18, 2013

BJ.C

3436781361186088

I'm confused... didn't he do exactly that?

Read it again, BJC. Or indulge me to write it again on this annoying phone (apologies)

The allure of a 500 isn't even close to being matched by a CRT. Sacrifice for 500? Si. Sacrifice fir CRT? No.

BJ.C · Feb 18, 2013

Gotcha! Thanks

povol · Feb 18, 2013

Dr No

3436861361188494

Read it again, BJC. Or indulge me to write it again on this annoying phone (apologies)

The allure of a 500 isn't even close to being matched by a CRT. Sacrifice for 500? Si. Sacrifice fir CRT? No.

Back in the day, 10th was 10th, now 10th can earn you a spot on the podium. You can go home with a smile, knowing you were best cheapest loser on the day

mylexicon · Feb 18, 2013

thedeal

3436721361182141

Are you on crack lex??? why would the factorys want to re-tool to make 750s/800s when the class has had its time and is dead?? how would that be a marketing bone for Ducati when they would also have to do the above in the worst recession for a century not to mention they have spent millions on their exiting models.

message to self never go into business with lex.

They already retool the factories every 3-4 years to update the frame, engine, gearbox, etc. Ducati and Kawasaki both built all-new SBK's during the recession. Honda and Yamaha are both rumored to be building new SBKs. Manufacturers develop new machines in good times and in bad times. If I asked Honda to reproduce RC45s in 1997 trim, your argument about recreating a bygone era would have weight. I made no such request, nor did I prescribe using the same 750cc formula.

Thou shalt not dumb down the sport. Thou shalt not go backwards. These arcane moral abstracts mean nothing, and they won't give the sport any direction or purpose. People need to see the big picture. SBK is a volumetric efficiency formula for prototye motorcycles, with a few residual stock parts. SBK is basically purposeless for technical development, and its media value has been waning for years in the shadow of a vastly superior 4-stroke prototype contest.

The SBK imperatives are obvious. Ditch prototype manufacturing. Ditch volumetric efficiency engine development. Maintain competitiveness across for all competent manufacturers. Maintain a unique race format. Move the bikes out of the shadow of MotoGP. If I suggest 750cc FFL, it's b/c I believe it will achieve these objectives. I'm interested in the notion of a future classic, not the re-enactment of a bygone era. An antiquated copycat marketing model is what brought SBK to its current nadir.

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Mat Oxley on CRT bikes

Dr No

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Keshav

mylexicon

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Pigeon

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Andy Roo

Dr No

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Dr No

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Dr No

thedeal

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