I'm sure you'll all love this piece by Mat Oxley.
http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/race/moto-gp-race/crt-bikes-some-perspective/
http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/race/moto-gp-race/crt-bikes-some-perspective/
I expect there to be 5 proddie RCVs, and 4 Hondas, and 3 CRT bikes. And I think the CRT bikes will be a lot closer to the proddie RCVs than Honda will be comfortable with.
povol
Yes. Not 12 engines, 3 engines, rotated for maintenance. Aprilia's ART is a good deal more expensive, however, nearer 1 million euros. But the FTR Honda from last year cost 300K, including engines.
Yes. Not 12 engines, 3 engines, rotated for maintenance. Aprilia's ART is a good deal more expensive, however, nearer 1 million euros. But the FTR Honda from last year cost 300K, including engines.
Kropotkin
Thanks Mat, for bringing some sense to the senseless banging on about CRTs. I have been for them right from the start and still am - the mindless announcing the end of the world ignore the facts, as usual.
Thanks Mat, for bringing some sense to the senseless banging on about CRTs. I have been for them right from the start and still am - the mindless announcing the end of the world ignore the facts, as usual.
I think everyone knows I am a supporter of CRT, but, with respect to Oxley, the point of CRT is not to make minor improvements to the failures of the past.
The MSMA were writing rules for a field of factory prototypes that didn't exist, and the arrangement was so bad that the factories themselves became jaded. CRT was created to remedy the problem with the motorcycle suppliers, and to hedge against the possibility of complete factory withdrawal during the global credit crisis. In that regard, CRTs are still very much in their infancy.
Some recent CRT developments have been positive, like the elimination of the claiming rules that give CRTs their name. Some recent CRT developments have been negative, like Dorna leaning on HRC to create CRT machines, though this renders the hedging strategy impotent, and it leaves MotoGP exposed.
The MSMA were writing rules for a field of factory prototypes that didn't exist, and the arrangement was so bad that the factories themselves became jaded. CRT was created to remedy the problem with the motorcycle suppliers, and to hedge against the possibility of complete factory withdrawal during the global credit crisis. In that regard, CRTs are still very much in their infancy.
Some recent CRT developments have been positive, like the elimination of the claiming rules that give CRTs their name. Some recent CRT developments have been negative, like Dorna leaning on HRC to create CRT machines, though this renders the hedging strategy impotent, and it leaves MotoGP exposed.
Joined Jul 2011
1K Posts | 872+
Dont Know
Terrific now all we need do is kick out the prototypes and manufacturers and no one will know the difference.
Except that a SBK on Pirelli would qualify better than a CRT. End of. A superstock would be close by these comparison standards.
24L, 12 engines, spec ecu, prototype frame, engine tires. Same rules for all. How difficult is it? Apparently very difficult when your name is Caramelo.
Except that a SBK on Pirelli would qualify better than a CRT. End of. A superstock would be close by these comparison standards.
24L, 12 engines, spec ecu, prototype frame, engine tires. Same rules for all. How difficult is it? Apparently very difficult when your name is Caramelo.
birdman
24 liters and a spec ECU and the factories walk away from MotoGP. That's exactly what the whole shitstorm over the 2014 rules got to the state it is.
24 liters and a spec ECU and the factories walk away from MotoGP. That's exactly what the whole shitstorm over the 2014 rules got to the state it is.
Joined Jul 2011
1K Posts | 872+
Dont Know
Kropotkin
Will they? To go where? SBK? No, it was Honda who threatened to walk. And you lot kept saying good riddance. Right up until MM signed with them, because that was better for the sport right? Much better to make rules up as you go, to have the cashed up MM entourage with cashed up Honda and cashed up Repsol because all that cash for a team like Gresini and they wouldnt know what to do with it. .... they might win the championship, we cant have that.
So no factory bikes, so what. CRT are that good are they not. Isnt that the whole point.
Will they? To go where? SBK? No, it was Honda who threatened to walk. And you lot kept saying good riddance. Right up until MM signed with them, because that was better for the sport right? Much better to make rules up as you go, to have the cashed up MM entourage with cashed up Honda and cashed up Repsol because all that cash for a team like Gresini and they wouldnt know what to do with it. .... they might win the championship, we cant have that.
So no factory bikes, so what. CRT are that good are they not. Isnt that the whole point.
birdman
Agree. Let the factories walk. They won't go anywhere else, because they have an existence beyond racing.
Agree. Let the factories walk. They won't go anywhere else, because they have an existence beyond racing.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Seemed to me a rather weak article for a journalist (or maybe my expectations are too high). I've read some good stuff from Max before, this wasn't up to snuff. That piece was more like a decent post here on PS (or maybe I've been ruined by some of the better members of this forum).
Anyway, I saw it as an opinion (agenda) wrapped around a few historical facts looked up on Google to free associate. I suppose thats why BJCnt is applauding it, since it saved him the time to cut and past from wiki. First of all, technology has changed in breath and depth. I'm told that there is more technology wrapped around my iPhone than was on the Apollo. So, of course today's CRTs are going to be closer in parity. But that still doesn't quite speak to the concept that these are a completely different category (within a category). What is the next article? Uhm, Wsbks are not that much slower than GP "prototypes"....? Uhm, ok, so what is the point here? We have two sets of rules. In a time where the technology has so far advanced (it is 2013) that a typical sportbike bone stock at the dealership has technology that full GP bikes didn't dream of 20-30 years ago. I'm not even factoring in tire technology.
His assertion that Pedro is good for at least a half second on a CRT is laughable at best. Has he not been paying attention to one of the sports best riders by the name of Valentino who was on a "full prototype" the last two years and was struggling to get by the CRTs and keep up with fellow "prototypes"? Perhaps somebody should point out that during qual, a CRT beat him, not to mention 2nd rate Barbara on an inferior "prototype". Today VR is now within a pubic hair of Pedro & JLo, why? No dots to connect here? I'd like to know on what basis exactly does he assert that Pedro would be that much better, given Pedro has never been on second rate kit his entire MotoGP life. Much like Valentino, they have enjoyed the unfettered attention of the factories to the detriment , hanging on every development word these guys utter with the budget to follow through.
I suppose Wsbk machines in their current state might do well enough if perhaps they were given better tires vs GP prototypes. So should they have Wsbks compete against CRTs? Just a question for thought. The question may better be framed, is it acceptable to have two sets of rules within a category for the one category of the sport considered the absolute pinnacle? Why not have four distinct categories then? Why don't we have an 8 bike championship of "prototypes"? Perhaps because it would look silly?
Anyway, I saw it as an opinion (agenda) wrapped around a few historical facts looked up on Google to free associate. I suppose thats why BJCnt is applauding it, since it saved him the time to cut and past from wiki. First of all, technology has changed in breath and depth. I'm told that there is more technology wrapped around my iPhone than was on the Apollo. So, of course today's CRTs are going to be closer in parity. But that still doesn't quite speak to the concept that these are a completely different category (within a category). What is the next article? Uhm, Wsbks are not that much slower than GP "prototypes"....? Uhm, ok, so what is the point here? We have two sets of rules. In a time where the technology has so far advanced (it is 2013) that a typical sportbike bone stock at the dealership has technology that full GP bikes didn't dream of 20-30 years ago. I'm not even factoring in tire technology.
His assertion that Pedro is good for at least a half second on a CRT is laughable at best. Has he not been paying attention to one of the sports best riders by the name of Valentino who was on a "full prototype" the last two years and was struggling to get by the CRTs and keep up with fellow "prototypes"? Perhaps somebody should point out that during qual, a CRT beat him, not to mention 2nd rate Barbara on an inferior "prototype". Today VR is now within a pubic hair of Pedro & JLo, why? No dots to connect here? I'd like to know on what basis exactly does he assert that Pedro would be that much better, given Pedro has never been on second rate kit his entire MotoGP life. Much like Valentino, they have enjoyed the unfettered attention of the factories to the detriment , hanging on every development word these guys utter with the budget to follow through.
I suppose Wsbk machines in their current state might do well enough if perhaps they were given better tires vs GP prototypes. So should they have Wsbks compete against CRTs? Just a question for thought. The question may better be framed, is it acceptable to have two sets of rules within a category for the one category of the sport considered the absolute pinnacle? Why not have four distinct categories then? Why don't we have an 8 bike championship of "prototypes"? Perhaps because it would look silly?
Joined Oct 2012
3K Posts | 725+
Crab Key
stiefel
Nice point.
However I just laughed his mathematics: the CRTs are only <cough> 1.7 percent slower than prototypes.
An hour long race....1.7 percent....a minute back. "not a huge difference".
And this is an argument <u>for</u> CRTs, Mr (massive promoter of 4 strokes entering the series) Oxley??
They are, as you (and others, while I was typing) state, a different series, racing a different race.
Nothing points to this more than the top CRT entering parc ferme alongside the top 3.
Nice point.
However I just laughed his mathematics: the CRTs are only <cough> 1.7 percent slower than prototypes.
An hour long race....1.7 percent....a minute back. "not a huge difference".
And this is an argument <u>for</u> CRTs, Mr (massive promoter of 4 strokes entering the series) Oxley??
They are, as you (and others, while I was typing) state, a different series, racing a different race.
Nothing points to this more than the top CRT entering parc ferme alongside the top 3.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Dr No
Two dicks on a bike, as I've described it.
Here is another point I'd like to make regarding parity of lap times, in addition to the point I made above regarding the proliferation of technology (as the article focused on lap times to contend the point rather than the real issue of having a category inside another based on two different sets of arbitrary rules). At one time these riders and teams were basically weekend warriors. A side hobby if you will. That is, the spectrum of parity amongst the field would have certainly been wildly diverse. Today, these guys have personal trainers and nutritionists, not to mention ... butlers like Uccio and that nameless dude always hanging around JLo. From top to bottom, all these guys dedicate their entire waking hours to the particulars of the sport. This also may offer some explanation as to why there is a bit more parity among the field as a whole.
Two dicks on a bike, as I've described it.
Here is another point I'd like to make regarding parity of lap times, in addition to the point I made above regarding the proliferation of technology (as the article focused on lap times to contend the point rather than the real issue of having a category inside another based on two different sets of arbitrary rules). At one time these riders and teams were basically weekend warriors. A side hobby if you will. That is, the spectrum of parity amongst the field would have certainly been wildly diverse. Today, these guys have personal trainers and nutritionists, not to mention ... butlers like Uccio and that nameless dude always hanging around JLo. From top to bottom, all these guys dedicate their entire waking hours to the particulars of the sport. This also may offer some explanation as to why there is a bit more parity among the field as a whole.
Joined Jul 2008
2K Posts | 14+
Tweed Valley Australia
Mat Oxley is enamoured with the romanticism of racings past (as am I)
I also think the DC 3 was the most beautiful looking aeroplane ever built
I don't want to fly to London on one, but watching one is awesome.
Air shows and vintage racing give me an enormous thrill but until (and I'm not re-quoting the PI lap times) a CRT bike can counter the fact that Jason O'Halloran was a matter of less than 3 seconds behind a motogp bike and faster than a CRT on a production bike CRT has no place.
Lets the teams go proddie racing.
Or can motogp all together and build WSBK up, but limit technology.
Video killed the radio star
and technology killed the team.
Back to the future was just a movie.
I also think the DC 3 was the most beautiful looking aeroplane ever built
I don't want to fly to London on one, but watching one is awesome.
Air shows and vintage racing give me an enormous thrill but until (and I'm not re-quoting the PI lap times) a CRT bike can counter the fact that Jason O'Halloran was a matter of less than 3 seconds behind a motogp bike and faster than a CRT on a production bike CRT has no place.
Lets the teams go proddie racing.
Or can motogp all together and build WSBK up, but limit technology.
Video killed the radio star
and technology killed the team.
Back to the future was just a movie.
Joined Oct 2012
3K Posts | 725+
Crab Key
If Matty is enamoured with the past, then Matty shouldn't go around saying there were grids full of equal machinery in 2002.
Vintage racing? The recent Island Classic validates your point, Andy. Mr Giles was doing 1.38s on a hotted up Katana of all things...
Vintage racing? The recent Island Classic validates your point, Andy. Mr Giles was doing 1.38s on a hotted up Katana of all things...
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