Laguna Seca - Race discussion

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Traverser @ Jul 22 2008, 11:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>All and all, I hope not. If it is so, Rossi has found a crack in Stoners hardened shell, and will exploit every angle to break it. Casey needs to suck it up and stay focused. Vale won the mind game at Laguna, lets hope there is more hard work for the two...and no run away winner this season


i agree man rossi played his card well at the last race... im hoping after these tests honda and yam can close the small gap to ducati so we can atleast see some fast paced racing without so many blocking moves.

i know that casey will be furious now but i hope he keeps it cool and doesnt overcook it gettin to hot headed...... i wish it had gone to the flag i wouldnt have cared who won, id want rossi to obviously but after waiting for a race like that all season i wouldnt have cared.

just want more duals like that.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Jul 23 2008, 01:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i'm 19 now?...i was 18 yesterday ...where's my b-day gift!?...


No birthday present for you!, indeed you are now in detention for messing up on the math!


I said .... if you look close ...... XXCurveXX < 19 ( not 19 yet )


not ... is equal too!

or are you actually still in elementry school now?

Whilst people are bemoaning CS and the possibility of no more acknowledgements at the end of races, I have been reading some posts around the traps that CS did shalk VR's hand on the warm down lap. The stories seem to be from the US but nothing printed.

Has there been any footage that shows it one way or the other?







Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 23 2008, 01:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But this bear no relevance to actual race you talked about what so ever. It was Stoner that had a huge advantage on the straights. On the one (or two) occations where Rossi was leading out on the back straight he was distancing Stoner through the long exit but hardly had his bike straight before Stoner blew by him. Not out of the corners, siply pure power as soon as he got the bike straight. In fact that race was a pure demonstration of ducatis strenght, and exactly why you should select the faster rather than the better handeling bike. On a track like that with a bike like that and a rider like that it would be noticable if he won with a mile, as it was it was nothing remarkable about it at all. How can you fail to see this, don't act thick becouse I no you're not.

Well the whole power/bike advantage thing would work fine if other people could get near to doing the same thing as Stoner in the skillful bits. As it happens only Stoner can ride that bike (which clearly has relative shortcomings in the corners) at the pace required to get a run on the straights. Speed advantage or not Capirossi (or anyone else who's ridden an 800cc Ducati) wouldn't be quick enough in the twisty bits to stay in range of Rossi.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 23 2008, 05:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Whilst people are bemoaning CS and the possibility of no more acknowledgements at the end of races, I have been reading some posts around the traps that CS did shalk VR's hand on the warm down lap. The stories seem to be from the US but nothing printed.

Has there been any footage that shows it one way or the other?







Garry

There was a link in one of the previous posts of this thread to the BBC inteview video where Casey refused to shake hands with Valle and was shouting something angry after him.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Evolution @ Jul 23 2008, 10:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>There was a link in one of the previous posts of this thread to the BBC inteview video where Casey refused to shake hands with Valle and was shouting something angry after him.

Thanks but I have seen that piece of footage which was taken in pacr ferme and really there was no shouting.

What I am after and have heard mentioned on other forums only, is that CS did indeed shake hands with VR on the warm down lap. Just wanting to confirm if that is correct as if so, it places some interesting perspectives (well to me anyway) on other actions.





Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 23 2008, 10:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Thanks but I have seen that piece of footage which was taken in pacr ferme and really there was no shouting.

What I am after and have heard mentioned on other forums only, is that CS did indeed shake hands with VR on the warm down lap. Just wanting to confirm if that is correct as if so, it places some interesting perspectives (well to me anyway) on other actions.





Garry

Deepest apologies - he was saying 'we will see' at a loud voice to Valle's back as he was walking away.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Jul 23 2008, 04:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>No birthday present for you!, indeed you are now in detention for messing up on the math!
Barry you might belong to the Gerrie club but don't forget that curve is on a ham and weed diet!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 23 2008, 09:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well the whole power/bike advantage thing would work fine if other people could get near to doing the same thing as Stoner in the skillful bits. As it happens only Stoner can ride that bike (which clearly has relative shortcomings in the corners) at the pace required to get a run on the straights. Speed advantage or not Capirossi (or anyone else who's ridden an 800cc Ducati) wouldn't be quick enough in the twisty bits to stay in range of Rossi.

Obviously. Otherwise we would actually have other Ducati drivers winning races...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Evolution @ Jul 23 2008, 11:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Deepest apologies - he was saying 'we will see' at a loud voice to Valle's back as he was walking away.


I put all that down to the microphone as it was able to pick up all that was said and all words spoken by both riders appeared an 'even' level (to my untrained ears).


EDIT: Actually and being honest with that conversation and subsequent interview, I was mighty impressed that CS did not swear during the whole discussion. As an Aussie I am shocked somewhat and feel that he let us Aussies down there, the boy needs to learn to swear.



Garry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wander @ Jul 23 2008, 09:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Obviously. Otherwise we would actually have other Ducati drivers winning races...

Even another top 5 finish from a Ducati would provide some credibility to these claims, at the moment on empirical standards the Ducati dominance theory is about as credible as scientology...

Really apart from Casey the bike is worse than a Kawasaki.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Gaz @ Jul 23 2008, 09:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I put all that down to the microphone as it was able to pick up all that was said and all words spoken by both riders appeared an 'even' level (to my untrained ears).


EDIT: Actually and being honest with that conversation and subsequent interview, I was mighty impressed that CS did not swear during the whole discussion. As an Aussie I am shocked somewhat and feel that he let us Aussies down there, the boy needs to learn to swear.

Garry

Garry you are so right, even if not to swear at someone but to say "for ....'s sake Vale" would have been fine. In hindsight I think he was diplomatic enough about this that it will be forgotten soon enough.

I also think that both these racers will be able to take it out on the track where it belongs. I'd hate to see another off track campaign by Vale, it is a cliché that no one needs

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 23 2008, 10:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well the whole power/bike advantage thing would work fine if other people could get near to doing the same thing as Stoner in the skillful bits.
So we exclude Stoner from the equation now, are we? And I thought we were talking about him and his performance in Shanghai. The fact is that Stoner make that bike handle just fine. Maybe not as good as Rossi on a Yamaha, but not far away. So who cares what the others does. Relativly to other tracks Stoner and the bike were slow in the corners in china. Maybe it was a setup problem, but it was non the less not a fantastic race for them.

As a side note, why is it that the Ducati are stamped as a bike with a bad chassi? I can remember another bike considered to have a very bad chassi back in 2003. Turned out to be "ok" the year after, and as you say it's the turns that require skill. Maybe they lack the skill or setup knowledge and that the bike are perfectly fine in it's basic construction?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andy Roo @ Jul 23 2008, 02:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Even another top 5 finish from a Ducati would provide some credibility to these claims, at the moment on empirical standards the Ducati dominance theory is about as credible as scientology...

Really apart from Casey the bike is worse than a Kawasaki.

Isn't that a strange thing to say?
Stoner is riding a ducati and in my experience the #1 rider has allways been the bench-mark for the bike.
Surly the bike is not easy to set up right, but as Tom draged Capirossi in this discussion it is worth noting that he in fact got a 1st, 2nd and 3rd last year on that useless piece of .....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Jul 22 2008, 08:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>No birthday present for you!, indeed you are now in detention for messing up on the math!


I said .... if you look close ...... XXCurveXX < 19 ( not 19 yet )


not ... is equal too!

or are you actually still in elementry school now?

Well now that i'm in elementry, it's perfect!....Thats the same grade as YOU
Now I can find you in the play ground to give you a good old fashioned ... whooping.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 23 2008, 10:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Isn't that a strange thing to say?
Stoner is riding a ducati and in my experience the #1 rider has allways been the bench-mark for the bike.
Surly the bike is not easy to set up right, but as Tom draged Capirossi in this discussion it is worth noting that he in fact got a 1st, 2nd and 3rd last year on that useless piece of .....

The empirical standard I refer to is the examination of ALL the available evidence not just using selected pieces to prove your point while the body of data may point the other way.

Having not set the parameters for my analysis you are right to include Capirossi, although I was referring to this year.

As for last year it wasn’t until late in the season that Loris came to terms with the bike (apart from a second in China) – his last four races were the best of the season and he came 7th in the C’ship - a far cry from his 3rd the previous year (2006).

What I am saying is if you remove Casey from the equation in the two years of 800 series there has been three podiums and a highest championship ranking of 7th. That is, Ducati minus Casey doesn’t equal the benchmark. I acknowledge that is the same for any team and their top rider, although Honda and Yamaha are getting more riders in the top 5, which further exculpates Ducati from being the benchmark.

Capirossi is a great rider but a 7th placing will not set the world on fire.

In turn that supports my argument that Casey is a top rider and the bike itself, as in the other teams is a means to an end and not the means to an end.

This year that effect is magnified, no other Ducati on the podium or even in the top 5 at any of the races. The Casey effect is significant and a claim that the Ducati is a dominant package ignores more evidence than it uses and this offends the notion of empiricism. On all of the data available it cannot be said to be the dominant bike.

It was actually a pretty boring point I was making – sorry.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 23 2008, 01:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>So we exclude Stoner from the equation now, are we? And I thought we were talking about him and his performance in Shanghai. The fact is that Stoner make that bike handle just fine. Maybe not as good as Rossi on a Yamaha, but not far away. So who cares what the others does. Relativly to other tracks Stoner and the bike were slow in the corners in china. Maybe it was a setup problem, but it was non the less not a fantastic race for them.

As a side note, why is it that the Ducati are stamped as a bike with a bad chassi? I can remember another bike considered to have a very bad chassi back in 2003. Turned out to be "ok" the year after, and as you say it's the turns that require skill. Maybe they lack the skill or setup knowledge and that the bike are perfectly fine in it's basic construction?

When Rossi went to Yamaha i was one of many who shared the opinion he was riding inferior equipment for at least the first half of 04. The same logic and principles that led me to believe the Yamaha switch was impressive lead to the conclusion that the Ducati is not an advantageous bike to be riding. Perhaps you are one of the few who believed that the Yamaha was as good if not better than the Honda all along, it just had the wrong riders on it. That's fine too dude.

And don't forget that Capirossi is on a machine with a terrible COG problem right now. If Suzuki can test in Brno and introduce a bike that turns without being leaned to 70 degrees they will be stronger at the end of the race and he'll have a chance to race. Now he is only able to get 10 good laps before the tires are screwed. A few more ponies wouldn't hurt either.

Jezuz .... you people type up way too much ........ to make ONE point
....it's simple, Stoner has gelled with his Duc and team...period...kids good, bikes good, teams good.


now, move along..nothing to see here

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Jul 23 2008, 07:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well now that i'm in elementry, it's perfect!....Thats the same grade as YOU
Now I can find you in the play ground to give you a good old fashioned ... whooping.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andy Roo @ Jul 23 2008, 03:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The empirical standard I refer to is the examination of ALL the available evidence not just using selected pieces to prove your point while the body of data may point the other way.

I guess this is all I need to quote.
MotoGP/GP500 have a history of showing that that using all available data will show that a lot of championship bikes are really ...... That's why I mentioned that the #1 rider has indeed been used as the benchmark of the bike it self. It's only in the recent years that bikes have become relativly userfriendly, but that never stoped the top riders from top performance on real beasts of bikes.
In recent years the bikes has become so riderfriendly that riders like Hacking can step in and take 10th on one of these bikes, and that even on the worst bike on the grid according to you. If they all were like that I would have agreed with you that looking at all the data would indeed be relevant, but the Ducati is clearly the exception to this now. The performance gap between the to factory riders are just too big. I'm not saying I have the answere because it's still a mystery to me, but I don't think Melandri is the usefull at all for benchmarking the Ducati or the other way around. Neither do I belive that Stoner are riding a ..... bike. It fits him for some reason and he is using it to it's fullest.