Laguna Seca - Race discussion

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 22 2008, 10:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>China last year proved that even when Rossi was faster, Stoner could beat him straight up. It may take 100% effort from Stoner, but he can beat Rossi. It doesn't matter what thrack they're on, Stoner can beat Rossi if he goes all out.

Rossi got it done this weekend, but that doesn't mean they will all go that way does it.

Yeah, he had some spectacular passes there. Watching him rocketing by and away from Rossi on the straits were some of the most spectacular riding we've ever seen. Sure was a 100% effort, or was it 50. Me and numbers, never get it right.

Tom, if you want to pick a race at least pick one that have something resembeling a fight. For the uninvited China '07 might have looked like a fight but it wasn't. Stoner could just as well crossed the line 30 sec ahed, he had 100% control on that race, and together with a couple of other races they demonstrated Ducatis strongest point to the fullest.

It did however demonstrate that Rossi can't win them all, not even going 100% out, and I suspect that is still true on some tracks.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Jul 22 2008, 11:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>4004:ROSSI_V_Stoner.jpg]

What you think Stoner will lie in wait to trip Rossi whilst he is dancing through the poppies!?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Jul 22 2008, 08:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What you think Stoner will lie in wait to trip Rossi whilst he is dancing through the poppies!?

No i think he'll lie in the dirt AGAIN like this past weekend

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 22 2008, 11:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yeah, he had some spectacular passes there. Watching him rocketing by and away from Rossi on the straits

well Rossi only overtook on the straights too ...... like at the corkscrew when he took that in a straight line! ..... ok it included a bit of dirt riding, but he took a straight line

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Jul 22 2008, 11:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>

Now come on Curve! if ever there was an admission that you are not 19 yet, this is it. What 36 year old carries on with that "owned" stuff?, thats what teeny boppers use

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 22 2008, 02:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yeah, he had some spectacular passes there. Watching him rocketing by and away from Rossi on the straits were some of the most spectacular riding we've ever seen. Sure was a 100% effort, or was it 50. Me and numbers, never get it right.

Tom, if you want to pick a race at least pick one that have something resembeling a fight. For the uninvited China '07 might have looked like a fight but it wasn't. Stoner could just as well crossed the line 30 sec ahed, he had 100% control on that race, and together with a couple of other races they demonstrated Ducatis strongest point to the fullest.

It did however demonstrate that Rossi can't win them all, not even going 100% out, and I suspect that is still true on some tracks.

The point is that in the right circumstances a race can be won withouth being the fastest over a lap, and both Rossi and Stoner are capable of these admirable performances

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Jul 22 2008, 08:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Now come on Curve! if ever there was an admission that you are not 19 yet, this is it. What 36 year old carries on with that "owned" stuff?, thats what teeny boppers use

i'm 19 now?...i was 18 yesterday ...where's my b-day gift!?...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 22 2008, 05:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The point is that in the right circumstances a race can be won withouth being the fastest over a lap, and both Rossi and Stoner are capable of these admirable performances

While I don't disagree with you about Stoner being an outstanding rider, I still find your example as bad as it gets. I havent checked but IF Rossi were faster in China '07 it is to no credit to stoner who had a massive advantage on the straights. He gained several tenths on those two looong straights, so my point is that if there were any race where he sould have won by a mile it was that one.
Winning while being slower on lap times is relativly easy when you have a massive power advantage and a track to use it on, compared to winning without that advantage or not being able to exploit it to the fullest.
He had a good day at work in that race, nothing more even if he won despite being slower in lap times.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 22 2008, 06:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>While I don't disagree with you about Stoner being an outstanding rider, I still find your example as bad as it gets. I havent checked but IF Rossi were faster in China '07 it is to no credit to stoner who had a massive advantage on the straights. He gained several tenths on those two looong straights, so my point is that if there were any race where he sould have won by a mile it was that one.
Winning while being slower on lap times is relativly easy when you have a massive power advantage and a track to use it on, compared to winning without that advantage or not being able to exploit it to the fullest.
He had a good day at work in that race, nothing more even if he won despite being slower in lap times.

I understand your point, but it is either based on a major double standard or the assumption that all motogp bikes have identical handling capabilities.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 22 2008, 07:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I understand your point, but it is either based on a major double standard or the assumption that all motogp bikes have identical handling capabilities.


There are no standards in the picture Tom, the only thing in the way here is your own prejustise.
What are you saying, the Ducati handle bad? As in '07 Laguna Seca bad?
Or maybe my point is based on the fact that the "easiest" advantage you can have is power. There is no comparison and no matter how hard you try there is no way arond that.
ANY racer would take a .4 sec advantage on the straights over a .4 sec advantage in the turns.

And the Ducati in stoner's hands doesn't handle that bad. Sachsenring, Donington, Laguna Seca are all tracks where he doesn't have a big advantage with more power, but Stoner still win there.
So he had a bike with the nesesarry handling capabilitites on the track with the most straight line and still only managed going on par with rossi + that little extra to win of course. That's not exceptional at all. He has done many races that were much better than China '07, but surly you saw that was my opinion allready in the previous post?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 22 2008, 07:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>There are no standards in the picture Tom, the only thing in the way here is your own prejustise.
What are you saying, the Ducati handle bad? As in '07 Laguna Seca bad?
Or maybe my point is based on the fact that the "easiest" advantage you can have is power. There is no comparison and no matter how hard you try there is no way arond that.
ANY racer would take a .4 sec advantage on the straights over a .4 sec advantage in the turns.

And the Ducati in stoner's hands doesn't handle that bad. Sachsenring, Donington, Laguna Seca are all tracks where he doesn't have a big advantage with more power, but Stoner still win there.
So he had a bike with the nesesarry handling capabilitites on the track with the most straight line and still only managed going on par with rossi + that little extra to win of course. That's not exceptional at all. He has done many races that were much better than China '07, but surly you saw that was my opinion allready in the previous post?

Thing is dude, in a straight line a bike is pretty much a bike. The difference in skill between riding the fastest and slowest motogp bike in a straight line isn't going to be particularly large. However we all know that the corners is where the skill counts the most. You say that any racer would take 0.4 on the straights anyday, but when Rossi joined yamaha he chose the most managable engine not the quickest one, doing the exact opposite of what you said should be done.

If two bikes weigh up equally fast around a circuit overall, one of them 0.4 better in the turns and one 0.4 better on the straight, both riders will need to do the same thing in order to win, outride the other where their input counts the most, in the corners. That considered it seems logical to chose (as Rossi did) the bike which is managable and predictable in those turns.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 22 2008, 04:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The point is that in the right circumstances a race can be won withouth being the fastest over a lap, and both Rossi and Stoner are capable of these admirable performances

For me the jury is still out on Stoner being capable of winning races when hes not the fastest over a lap.

Hes on a Ducati now so that advantage is not gonna go away, if we look at the 06 race at Turkey when he was racing Melandri both on satellite honda's... Melandri outbattled him.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 22 2008, 08:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Thing is dude, in a straight line a bike is pretty much a bike. The difference in skill between riding the fastest and slowest motogp bike in a straight line isn't going to be particularly large.
Really! Thank you for telling me, I didn't know that.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>However we all know that the corners is where the skill counts the most. You say that any racer would take 0.4 on the straights anyday, but when Rossi joined yamaha he chose the most managable engine not the quickest one, doing the exact opposite of what you said should be done.
He picked the engine that he thought he could be over all faster with.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>If two bikes weigh up equally fast around a circuit overall, one of them 0.4 better in the turns and one 0.4 better on the straight, both riders will need to do the same thing in order to win, outride the other where their input counts the most, in the corners.
That's where you are very wrong and why everyone will pick the faster bike. In a complex set of curves like in china you need a huge advantage to have any hope to pass someone in the twisty part and what you would want most of all is lots of grunt to get a good drive out of the corners. As long as stoner were first into the technical section he could ride in his comfort zone, pretty confident that Rossi had no way of passing him as long as he did no misstakes. And he could have done so being substantially slower, adapting the speed to what ever level he and the bike were stable in. That's why a .4 advantage in the curves count for nothing most of the time. Sure, if you can get away it counts, but in a one on one race it usually will count for nothing. For any extra speed in the curves to transform into an advantage in a race you need lots of it.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>That considered it seems logical to chose (as Rossi did) the bike which is managable and predictable in those turns.

You really really should try this i real life tom. In your dreams it might be like this but reality is very different.
Rossi took a slightly less powerfull engine over a peaky screamer that had issues out of the corners.
He lost a little in top speed and top end power but very little in acceleration and won a lot out of the corners both in power and drivabilty. All in all a substantially faster package. That's NOT what we are talking about here.

Edit: This is just getting tiresome. You tried to be witty talking a cheap shot using the same sentence swaping the names. It didn't work but you are not willing to admit it. Fair enugh. But don't try any doubble standard .... on me. I know Stoner is way better than what he showed in china '07 as that was, in the light of what he did later, a pretty average performance. (maybe due to a bad setup but still average).

Stoner lets himself down sometimes with his "toy throwing" when he is outraced. This was a classic race, and it’s why people like us watch racing in the hope that every now and again we witness a race like this. Now, Stoner was beaten fair and square, no doubt about that, and at the end of the race should have acknowledged this fact and looked more at the fact that he was part of this Great race. I like Stoner, and he is a good rider (not great), but he isn’t ever going to make any new fans or friends by acting like a spoiled child when things dont go his way.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mick.. Rossi.. 46 No1... @ Jul 22 2008, 07:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Stoner lets himself down sometimes with his "toy throwing" when he is outraced. This was a classic race, and it’s why people like us watch racing in the hope that every now and again we witness a race like this. Now, Stoner was beaten fair and square, no doubt about that, and at the end of the race should have acknowledged this fact and looked more at the fact that he was part of this Great race. I like Stoner, and he is a good rider (not great), but he isn’t ever going to make any new fans or friends by acting like a spoiled child when things dont go his way.

I couldn't have put that better myself Whenever Stoner has beaten Rossi, Rossi is the first to shake his hand. Stoner needs to grow up and stop moaning.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 22 2008, 08:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>He picked the engine that he thought he could be over all faster with.

And that was the one that worked better into and out of turns, as i said, you said as much yourself which is nice. I know passing is easier on the straights than in the corners, but most passing is sourced from the entry to and exit from corners and thats why it is so significant. That was the philosiphy that JB and Rossi used to develop the M1, and it was so successful that HRC had to copy it with the 2006 evo bike.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nomad @ Jul 22 2008, 03:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I couldn't have put that better myself Whenever Stoner has beaten Rossi, Rossi is the first to shake his hand. Stoner needs to grow up and stop moaning.

This may be the last time we see this in a while. 4014hoto.jpg]

That was a really good race. Not just because Rossi won, it's because the battles that Stoner and Rossi went through together. They were just amazing. That's what racing should be like. It's far more interesting watching them battle than for one to just go off and lead the whole race by seconds. Even if Stoner won that race, I would be happy because he fought for that and he and Rossi made it worth watching.
And what about Dovi beating Hayden? Oh dear. Hayden's on a Repsol, he shouldn't be getting done by Dovi who's not.

Lorenzo though.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ravensby @ Jul 22 2008, 01:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This may be the last time we see this in a while. 4014hoto.jpg]
All and all, I hope not. If it is so, Rossi has found a crack in Stoners hardened shell, and will exploit every angle to break it. Casey needs to suck it up and stay focused. Vale won the mind game at Laguna, lets hope there is more hard work for the two...and no run away winner this season

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 22 2008, 10:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>And that was the one that worked better into and out of turns, as i said, you said as much yourself which is nice. I know passing is easier on the straights than in the corners, but most passing is sourced from the entry to and exit from corners and thats why it is so significant. That was the philosiphy that JB and Rossi used to develop the M1, and it was so successful that HRC had to copy it with the 2006 evo bike.
But this bear no relevance to actual race you talked about what so ever. It was Stoner that had a huge advantage on the straights. On the one (or two) occations where Rossi was leading out on the back straight he was distancing Stoner through the long exit but hardly had his bike straight before Stoner blew by him. Not out of the corners, siply pure power as soon as he got the bike straight. In fact that race was a pure demonstration of ducatis strenght, and exactly why you should select the faster rather than the better handeling bike. On a track like that with a bike like that and a rider like that it would be noticable if he won with a mile, as it was it was nothing remarkable about it at all. How can you fail to see this, don't act thick becouse I no you're not.