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Jordan headed to MotoGP

Sloth_27
3669861383689941

Because highsiding or missing your braking marker and cartwheeling through the gravel is safer on a Satellite bike than it is on a Factory bike.


The faster you go the faster you get into trouble and the less time you have to react. The extra effort and skill required just to get that extra 10th a lap faster than everyone else is often huge and it's that extra 10th that gets you into trouble. Rider like markie tend to want to ride what ever bike their on at 100%. Sometimes they need saving from themselves until they gain the experience.
 
The problem with most of the rules introduced over the last decade or so is that they have usually had the opposite effect of what was intended....fuel regulations, engine limits, control tires, the rookie rule etc etc etc have all had detrimental effects and introduced unforseen problems. The ad-hoc response to "safety concerns" surrounding the tire debacle at the recent Phillip Island GP is just another example in a long list of DORNA "clusterfucks" and rider safety was yet again abandoned in favour of corporate revenue.


 


It is more than likely that many of these new rules and regulations are also as much about DORNA's pathetic attempts at manipulating a pseudo parity to make the sport more "entertaining" as they are about safety or keeping costs down - costs have continued to spiral out of control and rider safety is still an issue.
 
chopperman
3669881383691016

The faster you go the faster you get into trouble and the less time you have to react. The extra effort and skill required just to get that extra 10th a lap faster than everyone else is often huge and it's that extra 10th that gets you into trouble. Rider like markie tend to want to ride what ever bike their on at 100%. Sometimes they need saving from themselves until they gain the experience.


 


In the case of a rider like Marquez, I would say the "slower" Satellite bike is even more dangerous. He was always going to push it to the limit and try to chase the front guys. Although I don't think it makes much difference, you could argue that he would have got into more trouble chasing on something like the LCR (think Stoner 2006).
 
Mr Squiggle
3669891383691997

The problem with most of the rules introduced over the last decade or so is that they have usually had the opposite effect of what was intended....fuel regulations, engine limits, control tires, the rookie rule etc etc etc have all had detrimental effects and introduced unforseen problems. The ad-hoc response to "safety concerns" surrounding the tire debacle at the recent Phillip Island GP is just another example in a long list of DORNA "clusterfucks" and rider safety was yet again abandoned in favour of corporate revenue.


 


It is more than likely that many of these new rules and regulations are also as much about DORNA's pathetic attempts at manipulating a pseudo parity to make the sport more "entertaining" as they are about safety or keeping costs down - costs have continued to spiral out of control and rider safety is still an issue.


I agree with most of this post. The part i have issue with is grouping the rookie rule in with all the other rules you listed that have proven to have failed what they set out to do. When and how did the rookie rule fail ? All it did was stop top factory teams cherry picking riders coming up from the lower leagues ,which in turn gave all the non factory teams guaranteed lesser quality riders to choose from. This is why it was scrapped. How can a non factory team ever win a race when their bikes are less competitive and they only get to choose from the pool of less competitive riders?
 
kiddyK
3670001383700172

 Perhaps you could tone it down a little - you make this site much less fun than it could be.


Disagree. Believe me this place become less fun when the ........ goes unchallanged
 
chopperman
3669921383693621

I agree with most of this post. The part i have issue with is grouping the rookie rule in with all the other rules you listed that have proven to have failed what they set out to do. When and how did the rookie rule fail ? All it did was stop top factory teams cherry picking riders coming up from the lower leagues ,which in turn gave all the non factory teams guaranteed lesser quality riders to choose from. This is why it was scrapped. How can a non factory team ever win a race when their bikes are less competitive and they only get to choose from the pool of less competitive riders?


I agree it didnt fail....rather its just another reg that should not have been implemented in the first place....as you add extra regulations you add degrees of complexity...which is why we have the current farce - law of unintended consequences etc


 


Unfortunately most of the regs seem to be introduced as a result of corporate self interest (DORNA, MSMA etc) not for the betterment of the sport.
 
bluegreen
3669361383623746

WTF do intelligent (and I mean Pov and Jums) Americans bother with this your guy/my guy ....? Both of those guys were/are heads of a one party system that has two logos. They both act first and foremost in the interests of big business, they both let the Fed run the economy, there is no discernible difference in foreign policy. With the exception with some personal political issues (abortion, gay marriage, etc), and those are only there to give you the illusion of a choice, it's just a single party.


 


Watching people argue about who is the better president is like watching two otherwise intelligent people argue about weather it's better to eat soup with a fork that has three tines or four...


 


Agree, but we were not arguing who is the better president (though he tried to make the case).  I made the parallel that the elimination of the rookie rule is no more a mystery than why the US invaded Iraq.


 


Btw, I don't argue with Pov.   There isn't much to argue, he is generally wrong.  I just point it out. :)
 
kiddyK
3670001383700172

 Perhaps you could tone it down a little - you make this site much less fun than it could be.


 


Fair point.  I suppose we should consider who is having the "fun".  I for one find it quite enjoyable.
 
chopperman
3670071383705503

Disagree. Believe me this place become less fun when the ........ goes unchallanged


 


No-one is saying 'unchallenge' - but there are ways to argue/debate that don't come across as just trolling/.... stirring/abuse.
 
Jumkie
3670101383710906

Fair point.  I suppose we should consider who is having the "fun".  I for one find it quite enjoyable.


 


That is fairly obvious - but people come here for to relax and be entertained or informed or for fellowship, not to be lectured, berated, belittled, abused. It's not like there is a fine line - it's pretty broad.


 


I'm not trying to lecture you, either - just my pov that what you were doing was probably not what you would do face-to-face and that if you keep it conversational, it tends to self-police...people know when they have overstepped (except JK - he's about as socially aware as a fat kid in a sweet shop :) )
 
Austin
3669661383674895

Nothing. However, HRC has been in the game a long time and sunk a great deal of money into the sport. As far as I'm concerned, they've earned (most) of the power they havealthough I'd love it for Dorna to become a little more powerful to get something resembling a checks-and-balances systemby their ongoing involvement in the sport. It wasn't that long ago that Honda was powering, if not building outright, six win-capable bikes on the grid. (In a time when Yamaha and Ducati were content to lease two satellite bikes to whoever was willing to pay, give them a pat on the back and wish them the best of luckLuis D'Antin and the Dunlop-shod Tech 3s, anyone?)

 

I've spoken to a number of people in the AMA paddock involved with factory or factory-level efforts and not one had anything good to say about Jordan. He showed up, threw some money around, and got nowhere. When it became apparent to him that the only way to win in Superbike was to have factory-level equipment, he complained until DMG decided that the sport was more valuable if the likes of Michael Jordanand what was sure to be countless other benefactors just lining up to get involved if only the playing field was level...was happy and competitive than it was with Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki, Kawasaki, and Ducati all involved and financially supporting the sport.

 

Say what you will about Honda, but their threat has always been that they'd walk if their demands weren't met. Jordan's were met and he left anyway.
 

 

Interesting as usual. Im intrigued by your take, as you are one among a very short list of people I look to for insight.  However a few thoughts brother.  Lets add a bit of context to the situation you describe regarding the AMA, Jordan's influence and now subsequent departure. Under DMG  the series is nothing like it used to be, its gone through a few episodes of evolutions, from immediate blood letting to the anemic condition it is in now.   All the factories have left and ONLY Yamaha remains.  There is no representation by Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki (or Ducati) once staples of the AMA paddock.  This was NOT Team Jordan's doing nor did they have any part in ushering in this dire situation!  The alienation toward the factories can be placed squarely on Roger Edmondson, period!  The initial hopes of the high profile and successful group taking over AMA, who was wildly successful with NASCAR, namely Jim France and DMG, quickly became the never ending nightmare and eventual downward spiral to the point of near collapse of the series; this, I say again, can be singularly placed on one man, Roger Edmondson!  A point that cannot be overstated, hence my repetition of it: from the public assault on manufactures (American Honda particularly then Kawasaki) and sponsors (pulling contingency money, hell I think even Dunlop didn't provide for any placements if I remember right), epic debacles at venues (safety concerns, do you remember his now infamous quote about riders refusing to ride a wet Mid-Ohio where he said of the rider's safety council (of which Ben Bostrom was a member), "it was irrelevant" and those who refused to ride having "the comfort zone of a gnat"?) to the vindictive tech inspections of Mat Mladin for speaking out, to the disregard of AMA veteran officials, not to mention the use of some to apply retaliatory sanctions (Mat Mladin, Jamie Hacking, Johhny Rock Page), to the counting of pixels (yes, pixels) to see if a rider had moved on the start grid to issue penalties of which it became clear were also vindictive, to the implementation of the (dangerous) "safety" car (Laguna Seca) to the purses going to virtually nil, to public spats with team owners (John Ulrich) to changing the rule book for peculiar homologation of Buell (which have since left) to....you get the point.  This is the context in which Jordan Suzuki attempted to influence the league, a series in collapse, that is, one that was waning considerably which meant Jordan's brand would be losing value.  

 

What did Jordan press for?  He pressed for parity, namely the availability of competitive kit to non-factory participants. Not sure how using his influence to affect change to an already dying entity in need of life support can be disparaged as negative; that was, to press for more parity among the non-factory entries, which if you consider the spectacular exodus of the staple manufactures, what remained (non-factory participants) was the last surviving life blood of the series.  Jordan pressed for the availability of kit to be purchased openly by all competitors.  There are parallels to be drawn from AMA's Team Jordan to HRC in MotoGP with regards to wielding influence; however, lets make it clear, HRC are NOT pressing the league to level the playing field, quite the contrary, they are pressing DORNA for exclusive benefit. This, my friend, is astronomically UNLIKE the situation for which Jordan pressed changes to rules, as the benefit was not decidedly exclusive nor would it infringe on the two remaining manufactures (of which now one has left) to sign the best talent.  Lets examine what HRC in GP has "earned" by influencing the rules decidedly in their favor, its become a rolling billboard of exposure.  Contrast this to Jordan Suzuki in the AMA, where TV coverage has gone from bad to worse; if brand exposure is the goal, then why would he stay? Team Jordan was not this fly by night, rich guy momentary project, as they did stay and competed after pressing the AMA for more parity, it is a stretch to say he left there after. They joined 03ish, saw out DMGs near dismantling which is still in disarray today; Jordan was talking about the parity politics very early in his participation of the series, and he remained with AMA some 10 years.  Contrast this with American Honda who left the moment they clashed with the DMG's CEO Roger Edmondson. In fact HRC may have left GP for the same reasons American Honda left the AMA, given they both required control and influence of respective series including its promotion, where American Honda didn't get their way, hence their exodus, and HRC have, hence their continued participation within a very favorable environment.  

 

Brother, help me understand, as I don't quite get the negativity toward Jordan's efforts for the AMA to level the playing field.  (I mean, I get Povol's objection, simply because I honestly doubt he understands the implications given he is a complete brainwashed minion who is talking out of his ... given he perceives the world through his political views and hence feels the need to counter them with Jordan's plight for a more fair series (there I cleaned it up for you KidK).  But Jordan was trying to bring a new ethic of competition and elevation to our beloved American roadracing series, one I believe made sense.  Look at GP for clues when manufactures are allowed to rule the roost, 4 win worthy bikes and the League's need to introduce CRT grid fillers to the ignorant masses.  If we we are ok with HRC's unlimited hiking of the investment to compete, then we should be ok watching a gird of 4-8 bikes racing for the championship. I'll look for the link tonight in which Jordan talked about the need for change and increased parity in a racing series.  I'd be interested to hear your points of contention regarding his assertions.  I can't remember it all right off the top of my head, but I do remember reading it and fairly agreeing with most if not all of Jordan's proposals for the AMA.   
 
Jumkie
3670091383710732

Agree, but we were not arguing who is the better president (though he tried to make the case).  I made the parallel that the elimination of the rookie rule is no more a mystery than why the US invaded Iraq.


 


Btw, I don't argue with Pov.   There isn't much to argue, he is generally wrong.  I just point it out. :)


 


True


Yeah, I think I was thinking more in general terms and yours and Pov's exchange just struck me a certain way. The whole red/blue thing just seems like a waste of time, same thing up here btw, even the same colours :) although ours are reversed haha ....... Canadians.
 
I cant fathom that this is as hard to understand as it seems to be for some people. Yoshimura is a company that designs and produces performance parts for the motorcycle industry. They were chosen by Suzuki to run the AMA Superbike program because of their prowess in design and production of performance parts. Is every ONE still focused, because this is where it gets sticky for some. Yoshimura, designed and produced parts that dominated the series like they were paid to do. Not to mention they hired the 2 best  Superbike riders in existence. Why in the .... would you offer your parts to a competitor. They didnt design these parts to sell to other teams, they designed these parts to win, period, end of. Jordan wanted to win on the cheap, so instead of spending the money to compete, he pushed for lower tech regs which was a big factor in the factories pulling out. Was it the only reasons they left, of course not, but it played a huge role .Like i said initially, go to WSBK, we dont need anymore cheapskates trying to influence Moto GP.
 
Jumkie
3670131383717299

 

 

Interesting as usual. Im intrigued by your take, as you are one among a very short list of people I look to for insight.  However a few thoughts brother.  Lets add a bit of context to the situation you describe regarding the AMA, Jordan's influence and now subsequent departure. Under DMG  the series is nothing like it used to be, its gone through a few episodes of evolutions, from immediate blood letting to the anemic condition it is in now.   All the factories have left and ONLY Yamaha remains.  There is no representation by Honda, Suzuki, Kawasaki (or Ducati) once staples of the AMA paddock.  This was NOT Team Jordan's doing nor did they have any part in ushering in this dire situation!  The alienation toward the factories can be placed squarely on Roger Edmondson, period!  The initial hopes of the high profile and successful group taking over AMA, who was wildly successful with NASCAR, namely Jim France and DMG, quickly became the never ending nightmare and eventual downward spiral to the point of near collapse of the series; this, I say again, can be singularly placed on one man, Roger Edmondson!  A point that cannot be overstated, hence my repetition of it: from the public assault on manufactures (American Honda particularly then Kawasaki) and sponsors (pulling contingency money, hell I think even Dunlop didn't provide for any placements if I remember right), epic debacles at venues (safety concerns, do you remember his now infamous quote about riders refusing to ride a wet Mid-Ohio where he said of the rider's safety council (of which Ben Bostrom was a member), "it was irrelevant" and those who refused to ride having "the comfort zone of a gnat"?) to the vindictive tech inspections of Mat Mladin for speaking out, to the disregard of AMA veteran officials, not to mention the use of some to apply retaliatory sanctions (Mat Mladin, Jamie Hacking, Johhny Rock Page), to the counting of pixels (yes, pixels) to see if a rider had moved on the start grid to issue penalties of which it became clear were also vindictive, to the implementation of the (dangerous) "safety" car (Laguna Seca) to the purses going to virtually nil, to public spats with team owners (John Ulrich) to changing the rule book for peculiar homologation of Buell (which have since left) to....you get the point.  This is the context in which Jordan Suzuki attempted to influence the league, a series in collapse, that is, one that was waning considerably which meant Jordan's brand would be losing value.  

 

What did Jordan press for?  He pressed for parity, namely the availability of competitive kit to non-factory participants. Not sure how using his influence to affect change to an already dying entity in need of life support can be disparaged as negative; that was, to press for more parity among the non-factory entries, which if you consider the spectacular exodus of the staple manufactures, what remained (non-factory participants) was the last surviving life blood of the series.  Jordan pressed for the availability of kit to be purchased openly by all competitors.  There are parallels to be drawn from AMA's Team Jordan to HRC in MotoGP with regards to wielding influence; however, lets make it clear, HRC are NOT pressing the league to level the playing field, quite the contrary, they are pressing DORNA for exclusive benefit. This, my friend, is astronomically UNLIKE the situation for which Jordan pressed changes to rules, as the benefit was not decidedly exclusive nor would it infringe on the two remaining manufactures (of which now one has left) to sign the best talent.  Lets examine what HRC in GP has "earned" by influencing the rules decidedly in their favor, its become a rolling billboard of exposure.  Contrast this to Jordan Suzuki in the AMA, where TV coverage has gone from bad to worse; if brand exposure is the goal, then why would he stay? Team Jordan was not this fly by night, rich guy momentary project, as they did stay and competed after pressing the AMA for more parity, it is a stretch to say he left there after. They joined 03ish, saw out DMGs near dismantling which is still in disarray today; Jordan was talking about the parity politics very early in his participation of the series, and he remained with AMA some 10 years.  Contrast this with American Honda who left the moment they clashed with the DMG's CEO Roger Edmondson. In fact HRC may have left GP for the same reasons American Honda left the AMA, given they both required control and influence of respective series including its promotion, where American Honda didn't get their way, hence their exodus, and HRC have, hence their continued participation within a very favorable environment.  

 

Brother, help me understand, as I don't quite get the negativity toward Jordan's efforts for the AMA to level the playing field.  (I mean, I get Povol's objection, simply because I honestly doubt he understands the implications given he is a complete brainwashed minion who is talking out of his ... given he perceives the world through his political views and hence feels the need to counter them with Jordan's plight for a more fair series (there I cleaned it up for you KidK).  But Jordan was trying to bring a new ethic of competition and elevation to our beloved American roadracing series, one I believe made sense.  Look at GP for clues when manufactures are allowed to rule the roost, 4 win worthy bikes and the League's need to introduce CRT grid fillers to the ignorant masses.  If we we are ok with HRC's unlimited hiking of the investment to compete, then we should be ok watching a gird of 4-8 bikes racing for the championship. I'll look for the link tonight in which Jordan talked about the need for change and increased parity in a racing series.  I'd be interested to hear your points of contention regarding his assertions.  I can't remember it all right off the top of my head, but I do remember reading it and fairly agreeing with most if not all of Jordan's proposals for the AMA.   


 


You're right in that Jordan wasn't literally the guy pushing the factories out. He was, however, the one lobbying to get rid of the quarter-million-dollar factory-special Superbikes. And in the transition to DMG ownership, who clearly craved power, Jordan emerged as DMG's hope for a new direction in the series. Here was a team owner infinitely more marketable than any other team could dream to be in a domestic series. So, if you have a private guy capable of pulling in mainstream dollars, and you're already looking for an excuse to wrestle power from the manufacturers, what do you do? You back your new golden boy and forget the manufacturers who single-handedly built the series. And what happens? All the sponsorship money those manufacturers dumped into the sport dries up and the series dies, which is precisely what's happening right now.


 


Jordan wasn't the one who destroyed this series, that wasn't what I intended to say and I can see how that could be interpreted, but he was the man DMG pinned their hopes on—the embodiment of what went wrong in a competitive sense, if you will.
 

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