Is there a more reviled figure in GP than Puig

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JohnnyKnockdown @ Apr 4 2010, 04:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I've watched motogp decline in entertainment value the last 3 years. Since the advent of 800's we rarely see a good race outside midpack which we are only afforded rare glimpses of. The grid is stacked with ex 250 riders most of which are from Spain or Italy. I have maintained for quite some time that Rossi is the glue that holds motogp together. He transcends border and culture. He is loved in all nations and is the reason why most turn on their tv's on Sunday. If Rossi was to depart the series today what Dorna would quickly fiure out that would be left with a world championship series mostly devoid of world participation.

Believe me, Dorna (and everyone else in MotoGP) are absolutely crapping themselves at the thought of what happens when Rossi - the world's greatest marketing genius - leaves the series.

And you're right the series lost a lot of excitement since the switch to 800cc. That's got nothing to do with Puig or the 250 riders, though. That's Honda's fault, and the fault of those who wanted knee-jerk responses to Katoh's death.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JohnnyKnockdown @ Apr 4 2010, 04:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Gone are the days where an AMA and a WSBK championship could earn you a ride to Moto GP. Spies did it only after winning multiple AMA championships and still being told to buzz off and only after achieving what noone else has ever done in WSBK he was offered a ride. Even moto 2, the feeder series for motogp has stuck it's nose in the air when it comes to American riders.
Now if you're 3rd in the 250 championship it seems that you are a shoe in to move up to the big class.
DeAngelis, Aoyama, Takahashi, Bautista ,Barbera, Espargo, Kallio (and wasn't Pasini offered a ride) are all very talented riders but should they really be in this class? Are they really better than some of the AMA WSBK and possibly BSB guys that will never get a chance?

Of the 17 riders in MotoGP, I would estimate that they include probably the best 12 or 14 riders in the world. Look at what Simoncelli did in WSBK on a wildcard, and look at where he is in MotoGP. There's no one in BSB or AMA who deserves a ride in MotoGP, and there's only 3 or 4 in WSBK who deserve a shot at MotoGP.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JohnnyKnockdown @ Apr 4 2010, 04:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>When I read that Puig is good for the series you have to ask yourself at what cost. The racing sucks, the bikes suck, and it is mainly a Italy vs Spain championship. Without Rossi (and if Spies sucks) I can't believe that America and possibly the Brits as well really will be as passionate as they are supporting the series. Outside of the money he brings all I see Puig doing is furthering the downward spiral that motogp has taken.

Puig definitely has big negatives, but the things you are blaming him for have nothing to do with him. He is a manipulative control freak, but he also has an extraordinary eye for talent. Spotting that and persuading companies to put money into nurturing and bringing that talent on is a big plus in his favor.

One thing to add: you are right about the core demographic for the series being in the Mediterranean. The Spanish and Italians are mad about bike racing in a way that it is hard to believe unless you visit the countries regularly and read the media. That's never going to happen in the UK or the US (especially not the US), mostly for cultural factors. And so keeping Spanish and Italian interest is vital. You're also right about what happens when Rossi retires, it's entirely plausible that Stoner could dominate the series, killing its popularity as effectively as Doohan did.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Geonerd @ Apr 4 2010, 08:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'> 

I prefer to credit good old fashioned Bad Karma. In my experience, people do not respond well to the sort of 'leadership' Mr. Puig is likely inflicting upon them. IMO, the guy's personality and personal agenda are so virulent that he has managed to poison the entire team. When a control freak of Puig's caliber runs amok (can anyone seriously argue that he hasn't 'run amok' at HRC ?), competent, hardworking personnel are soon replaced by IQ-50 lackeys and sycophants, and the few useful people remaining are demoralized by the 'Ethics be Damned' environment. I may be overstating the situation, but consider that it wouldn't take much damage to knock the edge off a once top-flight organization.



I'm discouraged that you're so willing to give Puig a Free Pass. What exactly do you mean with "Unpleasant side…? You say 'potato,' I say '........'  

You state as a 'fact' that Puig's Herculean efforts have single handedly prevented MotoGP from spontaneously collapsing into a black hole. Let me flip this around – if (a big ask, IMO) Puig really is so important, is that because he's such a hard working genius, or is it instead because he has greedily accumulated so much raw power and influence through the years? Is he the benevolent savior, or just another scheming Max Mosley? The world is full of sociopathic manipulators, control freaks and power whores – Hell, the world is RUN by them. Anyone who has worked in a Big Corporation environment, their native habitat, and has witnessed these ........ at work will appreciate how tremendously destructive these people are. Just because some back stabbing ladder climber has made themselves 'important' does not mean we should worship the ....... as our Delivering Hero.  

In my eyes, the defining moment of Puig's tenure occurred when he hijacked the MotoGP.com site to foam and froth at Nicky. If THAT doesn't qualify as a 'mad abuse of power,' I don't know what does.       

I can't see HRC becoming functional and successful until the Powers That Be take a LARGE broom to the Puig hegemony.  Recent news suggests that Puig's role has been 'reduced,' but what does that really mean?  If Honda doesn't take aggressive action, the cancer will remain and the patient's recovery cannot be guaranteed. 

A few things: Firstly, you are right, MotoGP would not collapse without Puig. However, he has been a huge factor in making it the success it has been, in spotting talent and bringing it forward.

Secondly, Puig is a symptom of HRC's problems, not the cause. HRC have no HR policy, and will hire anyone they think can win them a championship. That leads them to hire Puig, who Yamaha wouldn't touch with a bargepole. Yamaha get the human factor in race, something Honda have never done.

If you don't think HRC can get themselves into trouble all on their own, remember the first NS500, with the petrol tank under the engine? The engineers said it was the Right Thing To Do, and so they persevered with it far longer than they should have.

And the hijacking of the MotoGP.com site was absolutely Puig's low point. I think it points in part to the waning of his power, overplaying his hand to make a statement he didn't need to do.

I'm not saying Puig isn't an ........ I'm just saying that he has his uses. There are others in the paddock (which, like all communities, especially competitive ones, is full of ........) who really should be reviled far more. I remember walking through the team car park at Assen and seeing the rental car for a team that had been forced to withdraw because of a lack of funds. It was a Mercedes S class, costing about 10 times to rent as the usual assembly of Fiats and Fords that the teams usually drive. At least Puig is competent.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kropotkin @ Apr 4 2010, 11:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>And you're right the series lost a lot of excitement since the switch to 800cc. That's got nothing to do with Puig or the 250 riders, though. That's Honda's fault, and the fault of those who wanted knee-jerk responses to Katoh's death.
Concur. I have been hammering this point home for years. As a product of this, HRC ushered in the emasculated class due to their influence within the MSMA and wheeled out the dismal 'Pedrocycle' in 2007.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kropotkin @ Apr 4 2010, 11:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Puig definitely has big negatives, but the things you are blaming him for have nothing to do with him. He is a manipulative control freak, but he also has an extraordinary eye for talent. Spotting that and persuading companies to put money into nurturing and bringing that talent on is a big plus in his favor.
But Krop, by nature of his vested interests with HRC which you yourself have acknowledged, his very scouting policies were tainted by HRC's push to the 800cc series. By expressly and actively seeking Pedrosa clones like Marquez, (who in my opinion does not have the MotoGP Factor) he was not only 'perverting' the direction of The Championship towards a pre-prescribed racing philosophy, but working to an agenda on behalf of his masters at HRC. As I said, irrespective of the money and sponsorship that he attracts to bolster the Series and the Spanish 125cc Championship, (although much of this is based on the continuation/cementing of existing relationships with Repsol), I still maintain that while he continues to sing the Honda 'company song' his 'chief talent spotting' position remains wholly untenable.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kropotkin @ Apr 4 2010, 11:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You're also right about what happens when Rossi retires, it's entirely plausible that Stoner could dominate the series, killing its popularity as effectively as Doohan did.

I think Elbowz might have something to say about that

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kropotkin @ Apr 4 2010, 11:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If you don't think HRC can get themselves into trouble all on their own, remember the first NS500, with the petrol tank under the engine? The engineers said it was the Right Thing To Do, and so they persevered with it far longer than they should have.
By this, I take it you mean the infamous oval piston design?

I doubt very much that stoner would dominate ala doohan in the 90's when rossi retires. Two riders finished ahead of him last year. Not to mention spies

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Apr 4 2010, 12:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I doubt very much that stoner would dominate ala doohan in the 90's when rossi retires. Two riders finished ahead of him last year. Not to mention spies
I didn't realise spies finished ahead of stoner last year as well. Also as I recall rossi finished 3rd in 2007, which was not necessarily an indication of his performance in 2008 and 2009. At the moment the bookmakers have stoner a strong second favourite to rossi for the 2010 championship, at shorter odds than I would have him even as an admittedly fairly rabid stoner fan. I doubt there are enough fanatically misguided australian stoner fans to warp the international bookmaking market.

Having said that I also doubt stoner would dominate like doohan if rossi retires in the near future as there is too much other talent around, including spies in particular, and it would also require judicious changing of teams at the apposite time, as I doubt any team will dominate like hrc did over a prolonged period of time either, and not ducati in particular.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Apr 4 2010, 01:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I didn't realise spies finished ahead of stoner last year as well.
Yeah, that's not strictly a fair comment by Talpa being that Casey never made it past the warm up lap to actually start the race

The path that leads to motogp has become narrower. While I agree that currently there is no talent from AMA and possibly BSB that will make it to motogp, my concern is that the day that there is will they even get a shot. As Spies has shown one has to win multiple championships and then move over to WSBK ad win a championship there as well to get a shot. So typically over here a young 16 or 17 year old rider has to spend at least 3 years on a 600, 2 to 3 more years on a superbike and then at least another 2 years on a WSBK. At this point you have a 24 to 25 year old rider where the moto 2 riders are 21 and have had to follow a shorter more linear path.
With moto 2 seemingly locked down and being the only acceptable way to get to Moto GP I fear for the sports direction. While Puig certainly is a symptom and not the overall problem Dorna cannot continue to lay the responsibility of garnering talent from one source and one demographic.
I look at Cal Crutchlow and Josh Herrin as 2 examples of guys who will probabaly languish in their respective series for too long. They are young fast and aggressive on the 600 and have the pedigree for moto 2 and should be in the series. I have heard rumors that Herrin wanted a ride (CK) but was unable to procure one. I don't like to use cliches but hey it's easter sunday so here we go. I think it's foolish for Dorna to rely so moch on Puig and therefore putting all it's eggs in one basket.

Just a thought...don`t think Rossi will retire until he has a season back on the low tech bikes (no electronic aids) where wrist to throttle control was his forte.He may walk away in dissapointment if it doesn`t happen.Its a brash statement,yes,but isn`t it what the majority of us want back in MotoGP?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JohnnyKnockdown @ Apr 4 2010, 03:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The path that leads to motogp has become narrower. While I agree that currently there is no talent from AMA and possibly BSB that will make it to motogp, my concern is that the day that there is will they even get a shot. As Spies has shown one has to win multiple championships and then move over to WSBK ad win a championship there as well to get a shot. So typically over here a young 16 or 17 year old rider has to spend at least 3 years on a 600, 2 to 3 more years on a superbike and then at least another 2 years on a WSBK. At this point you have a 24 to 25 year old rider where the moto 2 riders are 21 and have had to follow a shorter more linear path.
With moto 2 seemingly locked down and being the only acceptable way to get to Moto GP I fear for the sports direction. While Puig certainly is a symptom and not the overall problem Dorna cannot continue to lay the responsibility of garnering talent from one source and one demographic.
I look at Cal Crutchlow and Josh Herrin as 2 examples of guys who will probabaly languish in their respective series for too long. They are young fast and aggressive on the 600 and have the pedigree for moto 2 and should be in the series. I have heard rumors that Herrin wanted a ride (CK) but was unable to procure one. I don't like to use cliches but hey it's easter sunday so here we go. I think it's foolish for Dorna to rely so moch on Puig and therefore putting all it's eggs in one basket.
Absolutely right about Crutchlow JK,guy should be in Moto2 NOW !!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Apr 4 2010, 02:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yeah, that's not strictly a fair comment by Talpa being that Casey never made it past the warm up lap to actually start the race
It is doubtless tedious for others, I respond fairly automatically to talpa's invariably negative comments about stoner; his comments about other matters including those actually supporting valentino are not necessarily unreasonable in my view.

I have no problem with anyone saying stoner was 4th best last year since this is where he finished after all, and it is of no relevance to lorenzo et al whether he crashed on the warm-up for the last race, had tuberculosis or whatever.

I think this is a different question than stoner's prospects for 2010 however, and talpa is also presumably taking into account factors other than spies' finishing position in the motogp championship in touting his prospects. If I was framing a market for second in the championship lorenzo would be close to the top. I believe however he has very little chance of actually winning the championship barring mishap to rossi, particularly on a bike developed by and for rossi with the garage now split, and given even if you got a modern-day equivalent to solomon to run a motogp team it would be difficult to treat both riders entirely equally; apart from that it is possible he is not as good as rossi . If the new ducati ends up being really good there is some prospect of stoner winning (it has happened before), or even an hrc rider winning if the honda ends up being fantastic, which admittedly looks unlikely just at present.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Otis Driftwood @ Apr 4 2010, 04:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Absolutely right about Crutchlow JK,guy should be in Moto2 NOW !!!
And he would have been, had Yamaha not held him to his contract. For what it's worth, Crutchlow is one of the few riders I believe deserves to be in MotoGP instead of WSBK. And with Claudio Corti, Kenny Noyes, Yonny Hernandez, even Vladimir Ivanov all doing really well in Moto2, it could easily open up new avenues. In fact, I just wrote a column for another website saying exactly that, that we can expect to see Moto2 opening up new opportunities around the world. Spain has a Moto2 championship, Germany is likely to run a championship in 2011, BSB could run the class in 2012. I think this could change the game over the next five years.

I guess yamaha held crutchlow to his contract because they had plans of winning the 2010 wsbk championship in which he could not be easily replaced; if they were trying to warehouse him then they would be unfairly holding him back.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Geonerd @ Apr 4 2010, 02:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'> 

 

In my eyes, the defining moment of Puig's tenure occurred when he hijacked the MotoGP.com site to foam and froth at Nicky. If THAT doesn't qualify as a 'mad abuse of power,' I don't know what does.       

I can't see HRC becoming functional and successful until the Powers That Be take a LARGE broom to the Puig hegemony.  Recent news suggests that Puig's role has been 'reduced,' but what does that really mean?  If Honda doesn't take aggressive action, the cancer will remain and the patient's recovery cannot be guaranteed. 



Excellent! You hit the nail square on the head.




.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kropotkin @ Apr 4 2010, 10:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>. In fact, I just wrote a column for another website saying exactly that, that we can expect to see Moto2 opening up new opportunities around the world.

I'm sure someone here will find the article but can you post us the link.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JohnnyKnockdown @ Apr 4 2010, 05:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm sure someone here will find the article but can you post us the link.

'Fraid not, as a) it's not up yet, and when it is up, it will have been translated into Greek ...

Anyway, you've just had the executive summary ...

if i didn't know better i'de really think this .... files his horns every morning.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (michaelm @ Apr 4 2010, 10:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I didn't realise spies finished ahead of stoner last year as well. Also as I recall rossi finished 3rd in 2007, which was not necessarily an indication of his performance in 2008 and 2009. At the moment the bookmakers have stoner a strong second favourite to rossi for the 2010 championship, at shorter odds than I would have him even as an admittedly fairly rabid stoner fan. I doubt there are enough fanatically misguided australian stoner fans to warp the international bookmaking market.

Having said that I also doubt stoner would dominate like doohan if rossi retires in the near future as there is too much other talent around, including spies in particular, and it would also require judicious changing of teams at the apposite time, as I doubt any team will dominate like hrc did over a prolonged period of time either, and not ducati in particular.
I realize it's easy to misinterpret my posts especially with my history as stoners biggest fan........

I wasn't actually trying to detract stoner here but defend doohan. What mighty mick did on those 500s with his busted leg and his hand operated rear brake is the stuff of legend. CS has a very long way to go before comparisons can be drawn. In a thread full of great posts this was just one overstatement which I felt should have been corrected, not for Caseys sake but for doohans. Our longer term memories can be hard to access.......just ask bunny!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Apr 4 2010, 11:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I realize it's easy to misinterpret my posts especially with my history as stoners biggest fan........

What mighty mick did on those 500s with his busted leg and his hand operated rear brake is the stuff of legend.
Agree with that wholeheartedly

I won't defend Puig and I won't slag him off, either. He's an ......., no doubt about that. But he has an eye for talent, which is not limited to just riders in Spain and Italy, and he does all he can to promote his interests and bring money in. I think his standing with Dorna while having personal interests such as Pedrosa and Marquez, as well as his role with Honda and Repsol, is something that should be addresses. Perhaps some sort of advisor to Dorna would be more suitable, but to tend to both is pushing the boundaries of a conflict of interest.

As far as the avenues of entering MotoGP being closed, I think we're in the height of it right now. The inevitable expansion of Moto2 will raise profiles of riders currently riding outside of the typical markets. My question is that when young riders in Australia, the states and the UK make a splash in their domestic Moto2 series (when they form) will they push for a ride in the Moto2 World Championship or be promoted internally to superbikes?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Apr 5 2010, 11:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I won't defend Puig and I won't slag him off, either. He's an ......., no doubt about that. But he has an eye for talent, which is not limited to just riders in Spain and Italy, and he does all he can to promote his interests and bring money in. I think his standing with Dorna while having personal interests such as Pedrosa and Marquez, as well as his role with Honda and Repsol, is something that should be addresses. Perhaps some sort of advisor to Dorna would be more suitable, but to tend to both is pushing the boundaries of a conflict of interest.

As far as the avenues of entering MotoGP being closed, I think we're in the height of it right now. The inevitable expansion of Moto2 will raise profiles of riders currently riding outside of the typical markets. My question is that when young riders in Australia, the states and the UK make a splash in their domestic Moto2 series (when they form) will they push for a ride in the Moto2 World Championship or be promoted internally to superbikes?
It is quite possible that the pool of potentials from these countries could become much bigger. Especially in oz where superbikes are the pinnacle, the revised 4 stroke moto2s should allow for a smoother transition for the majority.

This is of course based on rider talent and potential, with these pools getting bigger I fear the marketability and financial resoures of the rider will become the determining factors.....