Is TC ruining MotoGP?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SackWack @ Jul 16 2008, 04:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm calling ........ on this one Tom.

Well i provided evidence detailing the fly by wire systems that began to appear on most motogp bikes in 2003. These included automatically opperated throttle butterflies (by servo) into and out of corners to assist traction. Honda had a system (and i doubt they were the only ones) where the throttle application and mapping changed depending on gear systems, while anti-spin, launch control and wheelie control has been standard for a while. Yamaha's 2004 traction control package even included gyroscopes to use lean angle as a parameter.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 16 2008, 06:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Most people believe 2006 to be one of the best season ever in motogp, and the traction control systems on those bikes are <u>pretty much</u> what we see now.

Tom I will quote you again. Think about it.... Are you saying the TC systems haven't evolved? I <u>pretty much</u> think that you have lost it man.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SackWack @ Jul 16 2008, 06:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Tom I will quote you again. Think about it.... Are you saying the TC systems haven't evolved? I <u>pretty much</u> think that you have lost it man.

Pretty much being that they are fundamentaly systems working on the same principles, just with the usual evolutionary development (which took place throughout the 990cc era including 2006). I was stating that I don't think we have seen some kind of TC leap from 06 to 07 like people imagine we have.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 16 2008, 11:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Pretty much being that they are fundamentaly systems working on the same principles, just with the usual evolutionary development (which took place throughout the 990cc era including 2006). I was stating that I don't think we have seen some kind of TC leap from 06 to 07 like people imagine we have.

No, we've seen the removal of the all important "Big Torque" that made those machines scary.

i like beer.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (djm @ Jul 16 2008, 11:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i like beer.

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 16 2008, 09:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Pretty much being that they are fundamentaly systems working on the same principles, just with the usual evolutionary development (which took place throughout the 990cc era including 2006). I was stating that I don't think we have seen some kind of TC leap from 06 to 07 like people imagine we have.

Yes the hardware <u>MAY</u> be the same but as far as reports have shown, most recently Stoner and now Rossi, both have received software updates. Unless of course you don't include the software as part of the TC Tom.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SackWack @ Jul 16 2008, 06:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Yes the hardware <u>MAY</u> be the same but as far as reports have shown, most recently Stoner and now Rossi, both have received software updates. Unless of course you don't include the software as part of the TC Tom.

Of course they recieved updates, but this is continous with what happened in the 5 years of 990's. Or do you think there was no such thing as a software update until summer 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 16 2008, 04:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Most people believe 2006 to be one of the best season ever in motogp, and the traction control systems on those bikes are pretty much what we see now.

Shall we bet on how man thousand lines has been changed in the software since the start of 2006?

The PC as we know it came in '84, was it? basically the same we see now. A box with a cpu and a monitor.
Turbo, 4 valves pr. cylinder, supercharger.... are all inventions done well before WW II. Pretty much the same that we see now.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 16 2008, 06:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Shall we bet on how man thousand lines has been changed in the software since the start of 2006?

The PC as we know it came in '84, was it? basically the same we see now. A box with a cpu and a monitor.
Turbo, 4 valves pr. cylinder, supercharger.... are all inventions done well before WW II. Pretty much the same that we see now.

I already understand progress dude, but thanks for trying.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 16 2008, 09:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I already understand progress dude, but thanks for trying.

You have me so damned confused. You say that the TC from 2006 is pretty much what we see now. BUt then on the other hand you agree that TC has changed. Are you saying that the TC we have today was inevitable whether we were in the 800cc formula or 990cc? TC is an evolution on its own and it was evolving in 2006 much like it is today?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SackWack @ Jul 16 2008, 06:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You have me so damned confused. You say that the TC from 2006 is pretty much what we see now. BUt then on the other hand you agree that TC has changed. Are you saying that the TC we have today was inevitable whether we were in the 800cc formula or 990cc? TC is an evolution on its own and it was evolving in 2006 much like it is today?

Okay what i'm saying is that TC is not new, nor has it made a magical jump from 06 to 07. It was there before, and principally very similar systems are still being used now. Of course there is development as there always is but that is a given in this sport.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 16 2008, 08:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Agreed. F1 banned TC this year with a control ECU and the statistics i have seen show that the 08 season has had less overtaking than 07.

Of course, it would just makes the bikes more similar and passing harder by using the same system.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 16 2008, 07:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Okay what i'm saying is that TC is not new, nor has it made a magical jump from 06 to 07. It was there before, and principally very similar systems are still being used now. Of course there is development as there always is but that is a given in this sport.
Now you are babeling again. What do you mean?
This is not an opinion, you're just stating obvious facts.
Much like previous posts today. If it's not obvious facts it is stating that you are not absolutly 110% against regulations. What is your opinion TOM? Do you have any or you going to continue stating the obvious as if they are arguments for something?

It seems everytime Stoner starts winning theres a thread about TC, but its clear theres nothing can really be done for the time being.

When Vale and Dani are battling it out, we have seen some good racing as the bikes are closer together than comparing with Stoners bike.

I wonder if they limited the RPM, it would be very easy to regulate this as the tv has that kind of data.

we know the ducati goes much higher than the others... maybe its a combination of both why Casey is hard to beat.

The fascinating thing about motorcycle racing has always been the point that the rider has been much more important than the machinery. In simple terms, put a decent rider on an RGV250, and he will be faster around a circuit than a kid on a ZX10R.

IMHO, too many electronic aids make victory very, very difficult unless the bike is near perfect. This is a big problem.

This is not aimed at Casey Stoner(who is a marvellous rider, as I have repeatedly argued). He was a victim of this at the start of the season too(when the bike wasn't sorted, he came 11th at Jerez...).

I don't believe having a situation where the bike needs to be set up almost perfectly to win is favourable. The rider needs to be the dominant, determinative factor. I believe with the increasing electronic aids, the role of the rider is slowly diminishing.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RCV600RR @ Jul 17 2008, 05:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The fascinating thing about motorcycle racing has always been the point that the rider has been much more important than the machinery. In simple terms, put a decent rider on an RGV250, and he will be faster around a circuit than a kid on a ZX10R.

IMHO, too many electronic aids make victory very, very difficult unless the bike is near perfect. This is a big problem.

This is not aimed at Casey Stoner(who is a marvellous rider, as I have repeatedly argued). He was a victim of this at the start of the season too(when the bike wasn't sorted, he came 11th at Jerez...).

I don't believe having a situation where the bike needs to be set up almost perfectly to win is favourable. The rider needs to be the dominant, determinative factor. I believe with the increasing electronic aids, the role of the rider is slowly diminishing.


So how will racing get better if the converse was applied? ...... ie. low-tech bikes? Not sure it will this way.

This bit is not really aimed at you but its in answer to why such feeling behind it is ruined .... ie. the "close racing aspect" ( which is absolute ........" ........ just think of it this way:

of all the riders in the world, 20 teams have found 20 guys that can all finish a motogp race sometimes within a minute! ......... thats pretty stunning to me.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frizzle @ Jul 16 2008, 09:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You obviously didn't read the post above yours right?
It's made no difference in F1 whatsoever.
No overtaking - no close racing and same teams dominate.
Actually I didn't, but the point is it gives more control to the rider/driver and must make a difference in terms of having to think more about giving it a fistful/footful of throttle. (I think I just made up a word.)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 16 2008, 09:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Now you are babeling again. What do you mean?
This is not an opinion, you're just stating obvious facts.
Much like previous posts today. If it's not obvious facts it is stating that you are not absolutly 110% against regulations. What is your opinion TOM? Do you have any or you going to continue stating the obvious as if they are arguments for something?

Well this is a topic about the effect of TC on the excitement of motogp. There are 3 pages of people who mostly feel it is to blame for the lack of close racing at the moment. Now i think its a fairly safe assumption that nobody feels the closeness of racing and excitement was a problem in 2006, just 2 years ago. Now we all know that this sport moves quickly, the rate of development is impressive but it is also continouous. The TC systems in use now are fundamentaly similar to the ones being used in 06 with progress coming from the usual evolution, rather than leaps, jumps and revelations (like we were seeing in 2003/4). I think it is not entireley logical to look first to something which has remained relatively consistent to identify the problem which has recently arisen, when you could look to elements of the sport which have changed significantly, like the tyre of fuel regulations.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SackWack @ Jul 16 2008, 09:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Tom I will quote you again. Think about it.... Are you saying the TC systems haven't evolved? I <u>pretty much</u> think that you have lost it man.

The problem Sacky is that only Tom knows what he is talking about when it comes to this pesky topic about Traction Control. Its up to us to figure it out.