Is TC ruining MotoGP?

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 16 2008, 06:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You are jumping the gun a bit there. I didn't say that my opinion was more relevant than anyone elses, i said that it is possible that these riders are not right. It is very possible that electronic rider aids are the most significant casuse of the current racing situation, however these rider aids are not far ahead of the much beloved 990cc era and some experts sight the fuel restriction as the problem. Some people point to tyres and some even say the bikes are just not powerful enough for their highly developed chassis. All are possibilities and all need to be considered, rash rule changes may not achieve the desired affect and could even do damage. That's all i'm getting at


I agree.
Yes there is a problem with racing as a spectacle.
Just get it right before acting. Don't do it on a whim only to find " hmmm - well that didn't help"
 
The TC is an interesting argument. It did come back up when Casey started winning again, not helped by his unfortunate praise of the bikes electronics. Other riders are more versed in the greasy dissimulation of "diplospeak " and don’t mention things like traction control (whilst they use it…. I digress)

In another thread there is an interview with Carmen Ezpeleta (dorna) in which he urges calm. Another change to the formula is going to add more development costs and will force more manufacturers out; the talk is (and I wont cite the article extensively) is that a control ECU would be the consideration if the manufacturers agreed to it.

Given at least 10 bikes on the grid (Yam, Duc, Kawa) are currently using the Magnetti Marelli it is likely that this will be the unit and Casey's position may not really change in any case.

The 990's are finished and the lap times are a lot better now. The problem with returning to a 990 or a control ECU or none at all is that of the relevance of the series.

At Philip Island Troy Corser recorded a lap in superpole (using a control tyre) on a R1 of 1’31.493
In testing Casey recorded a time of 1.28.777 but taking the second gp rider (Nicki) on a qualifying Michelin could only run 1’29.734.

This is only 1.7 seconds difference. Marco (I'm not bagging him) and Loris on the Suzuki pulled less than SBK times.

Bayliss and Corser on their relatively cheap production based bikes would have finished top 10 in the race on control tyres.

The official 2005 circuit record on a 990 is 1’30.332 held coincidentally by Marco Melandri (he can ride – just not a Ducati) but only 1.1 seconds difference.

I understand and I wont quote figures (until I find them, I'm currently sorting through a pile of magazines because I know I have it somewhere…) that a SBK costs about 10 times less than a motogp bike.

If there is only a second or so difference why would a sponsor or manufacturer pay for one when there is no prestige in creating a bike that a production-based bike can beat or equal. If we slow the bikes down or reduce the speed to increase the spectacle we may ruin the sport overall by making it irrelevant. This is the high cost prototype series and it has to be faster or it is nothing.

Without blasting riders and manufacturers I believe that the solution is for the other manufacturers and riders to stop whinging about Casey and the Ducati and catch up, which they will never do sitting on their hands complaining.

You slow the bikes down and we end up with a superbike at 10 times the cost and the industry will desert the class in droves. I simply urge you to be careful for what you wish, drop 1 second from the time and we may have a big bucket of nothing and sponsors looking at Superbikes pulling the same times and taking the money there. That is the risk. Let the riders catch up, don't slow the fast one down.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andy Roo @ Jul 16 2008, 11:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You slow the bikes down and we end up with a superbike at 10 times the cost and the industry will desert the class in droves. I simply urge you to be careful for what you wish, drop 1 second from the time and we may have a big bucket of nothing and sponsors looking at Superbikes pulling the same times and taking the money there. That is the risk. Let the riders catch up, don't slow the fast one down.
I think you make some good points. I think that wsbk and motogp are now effectively rivals is a big problem for motogp as you say, and they have the advantage as far as close racing goes that they can straight out equalise the bikes after some argybargy with the manufacturers .

I agree with your observation that ducati (theoretically at least) having an advantage seems to be a greater problem than other manufacturers (theoretically at least) having an advantage.
 
Is TC ruining MotoGP?

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Most people believe 2006 to be one of the best season ever in motogp, and the traction control systems on those bikes are pretty much what we see now.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Frizzle @ Jul 16 2008, 01:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>...
That problem needs to thought through rather than jump at something that might or might not work. If they make changes they have to KNOW it will work.
Nobody knows until they'll make the change. One thing for (99%) sure,soon after they'll make the change (in attempt to get rid the rider aids) whoever wins (whoever he is) is the best - the most talented and skillful rider in the grid-...
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (#46 @ Jul 16 2008, 03:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Nobody knows until they'll make the change. One thing for (99%) sure,soon after they'll make the change (in attempt to get rid the rider aids) whoever wins (whoever he is) is the best - the most talented and skillful rider in the grid-...

What if he has a huge machinary advantage? or a load of "luck"?
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 16 2008, 09:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>What if he has a huge machinary advantage? or a load of "luck"?
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If...well, they are not making the changes yet....
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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Andy Roo @ Jul 16 2008, 06:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>The TC is an interesting argument. It did come back up when Casey started winning again, not helped by his unfortunate praise of the bikes electronics. Other riders are more versed in the greasy dissimulation of "diplospeak " and don’t mention things like traction control (whilst they use it…. I digress)

In another thread there is an interview with Carmen Ezpeleta (dorna) in which he urges calm. Another change to the formula is going to add more development costs and will force more manufacturers out; the talk is (and I wont cite the article extensively) is that a control ECU would be the consideration if the manufacturers agreed to it.

Given at least 10 bikes on the grid (Yam, Duc, Kawa) are currently using the Magnetti Marelli it is likely that this will be the unit and Casey's position may not really change in any case.

The 990's are finished and the lap times are a lot better now. The problem with returning to a 990 or a control ECU or none at all is that of the relevance of the series.

At Philip Island Troy Corser recorded a lap in superpole (using a control tyre) on a R1 of 1’31.493
In testing Casey recorded a time of 1.28.777 but taking the second gp rider (Nicki) on a qualifying Michelin could only run 1’29.734.

This is only 1.7 seconds difference. Marco (I'm not bagging him) and Loris on the Suzuki pulled less than SBK times.

Bayliss and Corser on their relatively cheap production based bikes would have finished top 10 in the race on control tyres.

The official 2005 circuit record on a 990 is 1’30.332 held coincidentally by Marco Melandri (he can ride – just not a Ducati) but only 1.1 seconds difference.

I understand and I wont quote figures (until I find them, I'm currently sorting through a pile of magazines because I know I have it somewhere…) that a SBK costs about 10 times less than a motogp bike.

If there is only a second or so difference why would a sponsor or manufacturer pay for one when there is no prestige in creating a bike that a production-based bike can beat or equal. If we slow the bikes down or reduce the speed to increase the spectacle we may ruin the sport overall by making it irrelevant. This is the high cost prototype series and it has to be faster or it is nothing.

Without blasting riders and manufacturers I believe that the solution is for the other manufacturers and riders to stop whinging about Casey and the Ducati and catch up, which they will never do sitting on their hands complaining.

You slow the bikes down and we end up with a superbike at 10 times the cost and the industry will desert the class in droves. I simply urge you to be careful for what you wish, drop 1 second from the time and we may have a big bucket of nothing and sponsors looking at Superbikes pulling the same times and taking the money there. That is the risk. Let the riders catch up, don't slow the fast one down.
I understand and agree with what your saying but dont underestimate just how far 1.7 seconds a lap is.That much time costs millions of dollars to make up on a race track.It might not sound like much but its a 45 second difference in a whole race and im sure you know that.As an old race fan that deals in 100ths and 10ths.1.7 seconds sound like an eternity to me.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jul 16 2008, 12:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>And aerodynamics in the form of large rear wings creating dirty air for the car behind has nothing to do with overtaking in F1?

The Change to controlled ECU does the job in F1, it IS more entertaining. But that formula's overtaking problem were never really about electronics but airodynamics.

I was thinking about putting a controlled wing on a MOTOGP bike. It would be dynamic, where it would tuck in on the corner, provide downforce on the rear wheel on the straights and flatten out on breaking to provided some stopping power.
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Don't laugh you never know


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jul 16 2008, 06:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Most people believe 2006 to be one of the best season ever in motogp, and the traction control systems on those bikes are pretty much what we see now.


I'm calling ........ on this one Tom.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Jul 16 2008, 06:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I understand and agree with what your saying but dont underestimate just how far 1.7 seconds a lap is.That much time costs millions of dollars to make up on a race track.It might not sound like much but its a 45 second difference in a whole race and im sure you know that.As an old race fan that deals in 100ths and 10ths.1.7 seconds sound like an eternity to me.

Good point. Its always that last second that is really hard to hurdle.
 
I don't see how one can compare F1 cars to bikes. Dynamically different to say the least. Why not campare F1 powerboats using the same logic. I like Kenny Roberts view

"...ban traction control, ban fly-by-wire and get us all on the same control tyres. You want some guy to go out there and ride the bike loose and on the limit, so you can see that this guy is winning because of something you can see – his riding – not some electronics package that decides how much throttle to open."
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Jul 16 2008, 03:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I understand and agree with what your saying but dont underestimate just how far 1.7 seconds a lap is.That much time costs millions of dollars to make up on a race track.It might not sound like much but its a 45 second difference in a whole race and im sure you know that.As an old race fan that deals in 100ths and 10ths.1.7 seconds sound like an eternity to me.
The diifferences between the 250 and 800 bikes are sometimes not huge either. I suspect the pole time at pi will be a lot faster than the best test time too, but then I guess the test was a while ago.

I think andy roo is right that even a perception that superbikes are nearly as fast would be a problem though.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (povol @ Jul 16 2008, 09:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I understand and agree with what your saying but dont underestimate just how far 1.7 seconds a lap is.That much time costs millions of dollars to make up on a race track.It might not sound like much but its a 45 second difference in a whole race and im sure you know that.As an old race fan that deals in 100ths and 10ths.1.7 seconds sound like an eternity to me.


it might to you and i, but will it to sponsors? that is probably the bigger question.
 
It's prototype racing. If you want to live in the stone age with no electronics, watch Tour de France. There is plenty of action in the mid-pack. PLENTY! Sometimes, even the championship leaders with have to make their way through the field. There's always WSBK if you want battles for first. MotoGP isn't just about the best rider on a given track, but the whole package.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Jul 16 2008, 04:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>it's motorcycle racing. style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/.....gif
You're asking for something you don't want. You prolly want them to have spec bikes too. Oooh, let's all race R1's and see who's the best! But you'd complain that different sponser colors gave certain riders unfair advantages.
 
Think about it guys,what so called protype racing series has close racing,Moto Gp,sometimes,but usually no.Even in the 990 years,Rossi would toy with the field for 3/4 of the race,make a pass and win by 3-4 seconds.It was as predictable as breathing.He was just smart enough to keep it close and it grew his legend.Casey seems to want to decimate the field from the second the lights go out.But really,is 3-4-5 seconds any different than 7-8-9 seconds.

F1-Absolutley NO.The real race is for the pole since the winner comes out of that slot about 80% of the time.When was the last time you saw a pass on the last lap for a win in F1,when it wasnt contrived.Margin of victory is way higher than Moto GP.

ALMS Way more often than not,a runaway victory.But you get to see plenty of passing because the different classifications that run at the same time and that is interesting.

Prototype racing to me is about engineering,not having cookie cutter vehicles that are interchangable among manufacturers and riders.Having a more open rule book will lead to someone getting it right and even if that getting it right is 2/10ths of a second,that equates into a runaway victory.Just think about that,im a blink of an eye faster than you a lap but that equates to an ... whipping at the end of the day.Its always going to be someone thats just a fraction faster,right now its Stoner.By the end of the year it could be someone else.Or it could be Stoner for 2-3 years,just like it was for Rossi before him and Doohan before him and so on.This series has a history of one rider domination,why is it so much of a problem all of a sudden.I think i know the answer but we have been over this time and time again.Rossi is bored,his fans are bored.Of course he is going to say losing isnt as much fun as when he was having his day and dominating the proceedings,its only natural.I predicted as this thing tightened up,the hord would start eating their young,well,its tightening up and your seeing more and more articles and threads about what makes Stoner so fast,there doing "something on friday" to come out of the box fast.What the hell is that supposed to mean.Is he saying that "something" is maybe a little shady or is he saying Ducati is playing mind games by coming out of the box so fast it is forcing the other teams to make drastic changes in hope of keeping up instead of minor tweaks as the weekend goes along.If they think its mind games,its working or Rossi wouldnt be talking about it.This is a replay of 06 with rolls reversed.The big differnce is Casey is closing that once 50+ point gap faster than Rossi closed on Hayden.It will be interesting to see if he has what it takes to regain control or if Casey is going to keep popping them between the eyes week after week.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (clarkjw @ Jul 16 2008, 10:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You're asking for something you don't want. You prolly want them to have spec bikes too. Oooh, let's all race R1's and see who's the best! But you'd complain that different sponser colors gave certain riders unfair advantages.

you assume to much brother.... what i'm asking for is real bikes...real difficult bikes to ride...too much HP and torque, like ALL the bikes ever ran before the wussy 800 package...leave it to the riders...not the computers.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Jul 16 2008, 04:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>you assume to much brother.... what i'm asking for is real bikes...real difficult bikes to ride...too much HP and torque, like ALL the bikes ever ran before the wussy 800 package...leave it to the riders...not the computers.
LOL @ any of these bikes being 'wussy'.
1500cc spec bike racing would be as fun as watching the 100 yard dash.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (clarkjw @ Jul 16 2008, 10:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>LOL @ any of these bikes being 'wussy'.
1500cc spec bike racing would be as fun as watching the 100 yard dash.

sorry, i don't debate idiocy
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