If a bunch of gangsters are holding you to ransom, do you a. enlist another bunch of gangsters to run the first lot out of town, and hope that the bunch you enlisted turn out to be nicer than the first lot; or b. run the gangsters out of town yourself with people you know are on the same side as yourself? They want shot of all of the manufacturers, not to replace one set with another.
Is MotoGP just R&D for Scooters
- Thread starter JohnnyKnockdown
- Start date
If a bunch of gangsters are holding you to ransom, do you a. enlist another bunch of gangsters to run the first lot out of town, and hope that the bunch you enlisted turn out to be nicer than the first lot; or b. run the gangsters out of town yourself with people you know are on the same side as yourself? They want shot of all of the manufacturers, not to replace one set with another.
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
For Indians buying 100cc bikes for cheap transportation - there really isn't much variety. Basically the manufacturers take the same
Honda Hero engine or Suzuki Slingshot engine every year and dress it up with new flashier plastic over the same chassis and frame. For a few more rupees they get a disc brake instead of a drum brake. Every five years or so they change the rim design. In terms of efficiency all the 100cc bikes are pretty much identical.
I am sorry but you are just plain wrong. The Group C did not die because of the engines, in fact the engines had nothing to do with its demise. The group C died because most of the interest focused into F1 and the sponsors in the end lost interest while at the same time the cars were at least as complicated as F1 if not more. (if remember correctly they even had ground effect back then). And another thing is the group C were essentially endurance races which made them less suited to being on TV. The ban of the turbocharged engines was in fact meant as an attempt to attract new constructors into the sport.
BMW is in suberbike, there is no 21L fuel limit there and neither does Honda have a dominant bike there. So have many races have they won?
They cut displacement to 3.5L NA engines b/c they wanted Group C to use F1-based prototype engines. At the same time they reduced minimum weight from 800kg to 750kg. The Sportscar World Championship (rebranded World Sports-Prototype Championship for 3.5L NA) lasted only 2 seasons! The problem with Group C was that top speeds were making racing bureaucrats cry like little girls and as far as the FIA was concerned Group C wasn't professional enough (too many 962s) and was therefore not generating enough money for the FIA. The 3.5L solution was viewed as a silver bullet. It proved to be the opposite.
The Group C arrangement is quite similar to MotoGP. Capacity restricted, fuel restricted racing was already putting pressure on grid numbers in 2006. The 800cc formula merely finished off IRTA members and manufacturers who were not politically connected during the tumultuous changes that followed the introduction of the 800s. The 3.5L era finished off SWC privateers as well.
I don't really care why you think Group C died. MotoGP and Group C have followed a similar path. The FIA surmised that engine capacity manipulation would solve their problems. They were wrong. MotoGP has also surmised that engine capacity will solve their problems. The FIM and Dorna are also concerned with top speeds and commercial revenues. I'm not terribly confident in this switch unless we get some really good racing in 2012.
Joined Mar 2005
7K Posts | 20+
Woody Creek
Essentially, the fuel restrictions have caused an over-reliance on electronics. To get these 240bhp, or whatever they're making now, 800cc, engines to go 100km at speed, they require running in a very narrow powerband and electronic aid to deliver that powerband according the the computer's fuel strategy. So what we see is racing compromised by electronics aiding in tractability as the bikes are so peaky, and as to not waste fuel. Further, we see power output diminished according to various gyroscopic sensors, track positioning data, and fuel level calculations, which determine the appropriate level of power the rider needs at any given moment on track.
At least that's my understanding. I'm sure Kropotkin, Lex, or Jarno could go into greater detail or rubbish my assertation.
You are correct, but don't forget the interesting caveat. When fuel consumption is too high, the fuel computers soften the power delivery and turn OFF traction control. However, switching traction control on and off is frequently manipulated by a computer (with u learning). The riders can also make adjustments to the fuel maps with manual controls.
It is a convoluted mess that interferes (not enhances) with the racing, imo.
Joined Mar 2005
7K Posts | 20+
Woody Creek
I knew they were dampening the power when fuel consumption was too high, wasn't aware TC was then turned off at that point but it makes sense. And I agree with your sentiments.
Fuel efficient technology is the future of the IC engine in all of its applications.
I don't mind fuel limits and i don't mind high tech but i think the bike you start the race with should not be majorly adjustable, it certainly shouldn't adjust itself. 1 fuel map, one level of anti spin, anti wheelie and engine braking control regardless of location, gear, leanangle and phase of the race would really make things a bit more clear cut.
Yes i know that policing something like that would be unrealistic without spec ecu, that is just my vision of how to pick and chose what i like, not a solution in reality.
I like your solution and it would be cool if there was a way to police it. So will the new strategy in GP be to ride behind someone all race and save fuel to only pull away in the last two laps when you know their bike is gonna cut power because they've been burning all their fuel cutting a hole in the air for two. NASCAR on bikes with team strategies.
Joined Aug 2008
6K Posts | 748+
Thailand
Sorry, my bad... I did forget India (and China) I should have said SE Asia where my experience lies. I do tend to agree with Kesh though... the differences of fuel economy between a Honda Wave 125 and an equivalent Yam or Suz is negligible and doubtful as a determining factor over price, brand loyalty etc...
The fuel rules are a very stupid thing, it doesn't help the show at all, and it hurts some riders or bikes sometimes. they should change it asap.
Joined Jul 2008
2K Posts | 14+
Tweed Valley Australia
Having spent a few days at work where all I could get is ABC radio to listen to and having felt nauseated over all the "carbon is the new Armageddon" rubbish that various unwashed experts were peddling I do make the point. Irrespective of what racing is, to have a future it must showcase new technologies in order to stay in touch with the new vegan elite.
The vegan elite of course all wear leather shoes and their own Kombies spew out hydrocarbons like a 1950's coal fired power plant (but let's forget than and not editorialize) but this avenue to satisfy the largely uninformed and misguided masses who would rather watch Motorsport on TV rather than a national geographic documentary on the migration of the bogong moth is at the least magnanimous.
But really, I have three bikes in my garage and support motorcycle racing but I (and "we") are in a minority. We would just as soon make our decisions on purchasing based on WSBK results alone. The race Sunday, buy Monday principle applies.
But every time Motogp moves towards WSBK it becomes a little more irrelevant. 600cc support class?, 1000cc main class?? The introduction of manufacturer parts in the main class?
Motogp is quickly adopting the the parallel WSBK business plan and if there is to be any relevance in motogp it has to be in a technologies showcase. After the main event took all else from the fledgling class it may be all they have left.
The vegan elite of course all wear leather shoes and their own Kombies spew out hydrocarbons like a 1950's coal fired power plant (but let's forget than and not editorialize) but this avenue to satisfy the largely uninformed and misguided masses who would rather watch Motorsport on TV rather than a national geographic documentary on the migration of the bogong moth is at the least magnanimous.
But really, I have three bikes in my garage and support motorcycle racing but I (and "we") are in a minority. We would just as soon make our decisions on purchasing based on WSBK results alone. The race Sunday, buy Monday principle applies.
But every time Motogp moves towards WSBK it becomes a little more irrelevant. 600cc support class?, 1000cc main class?? The introduction of manufacturer parts in the main class?
Motogp is quickly adopting the the parallel WSBK business plan and if there is to be any relevance in motogp it has to be in a technologies showcase. After the main event took all else from the fledgling class it may be all they have left.
