Honda's shame

Dani walloped Casey in 2012.

AntG said:

Dani walloped Casey in 2012.

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Fair point.

Currently,

Dani Pedrosa is standing 3rd in current riders with wins, behind Rossi and Lorenzo,
yup... ahead of Marquez

and ahead of Stoner


Pedrosa is consistent, that is good for HRC


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Grand_Prix_motorcycle_racing_winners

ive always wondered how much of that is a function of being on a factory RCV. In your mind's eye, put Stoner and Marquez year for year as a teammate of Pedro since 06, does anyone think Pedro scores as many wins?

AntG said:

Dani walloped Casey in 2012.

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Pedrosa beat Stoner in the 2012 championship fair and square, no caveats, it was up to Stoner to stay on the bike and not get injured and he didn't, which Dani for once did manage. However whilst Dani beating Stoner in 2012 is a binary phenomenon, the margin of victory is not so much imo, and any "walloping"' occurred after Stoner broke his ankle in practice at Indy and was subsequently either injured or absent.

michaelm said:

Pedrosa beat Stoner in the 2012 championship fair and square, no caveats, it was up to Stoner to stay on the bike and not get injured and he didn't, which Dani for once did manage. However whilst Dani beating Stoner in 2012 is a binary phenomenon, the margin of victory is not so much imo, and any "walloping"' occurred after Stoner broke his ankle in practice at Indy and was subsequently either injured or absent.

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Like Brad Pitt says

"stay on the motorcycle, don't fall off the bike

michaelm said:

Pedrosa beat Stoner in the 2012 championship fair and square, no caveats, it was up to Stoner to stay on the bike and not get injured and he didn't, which Dani for once did manage. However whilst Dani beating Stoner in 2012 is a binary phenomenon, the margin of victory is not so much imo, and any "walloping"' occurred after Stoner broke his ankle in practice at Indy and was subsequently either injured or absent.

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Fair point, but he was heading Casey prior to that off at Indy, something the "beat Dani down" brigade seem to ignore.

AntG said:

Fair point, but he was heading Casey prior to that off at Indy, something the "beat Dani down" brigade seem to ignore.

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Oh? I guess I didn't remember that. Dani has had some decent seasons. One of his all time best races was/were at Brno, two actually now that I think about it. But again, function of a top bike? I was hoping to see him on a satellite when Dorna was making way for Marc to see what is what, as we are conditioned by conclusions of parity I think.

I honestly dont think we will ever have the privilege of seeing him on a subpar bike, I predict Pedro will retire when his time is up for HRC to hire another young gun.

AntG said:

Dani walloped Casey in 2012.

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Jumkie said:

Fair point.

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Here's the problem, Stoner had intended to ....-off after 2011, only getting talked into 2012 by Honda. I don't think his head was fully into it knowing he was going to finally be done with the .... show, and probably just counted the days down till the season was over. Pedrosa had far more reason than Stoner to be out there trying. Yeah he won a bunch of races, but I never got the feeling he his heart was into being out there anymore. Not that he was slacking off mind you, but you no longer give that last tenth of effort you need every single grand prix.

Stoner just showed up for Philip Island as usual after the crash and showed how dominant he was there.

What's interesting is if you compare Dani's 2011 to Stoner's 2012.

Both missed three races, but Dani scored 219 to Stoner's 254 in 2012.

Perhaps Lotus, but consider Stoner had plenty motivation to go out on top. To me at least, going out as the reining champ would have been a nice FU to Carmelo. More than it already was in my opinion. In fact I would venture to say trying so hard may have led to these errors. Except maybe Indy, where the slippery surface caught several riders out.

Jumkie said:

Perhaps Lotus, but consider Stoner had plenty motivation to go out on top. To me at least, going out as the reining champ would have been a nice FU to Carmelo. More than it already was in my opinion. In fact I would venture to say trying so hard may have led to these errors. Except maybe Indy, where the slippery surface caught several riders out.

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Sure I can see that, but I just think once you openly admit that you're retiring in the middle of the season, that can have one of those weird unquantifiable impacts on what you do from that point on.

Going out as champ would be ideal, but then again the way his thought processing seemed to go, I almost wouldn't have put it past him to give zero ..... about what the outcome was.

Agree. And I said as much back then. Im laughing because I was taken to task by some Casey fans for suggesting his head wasn't in it.


A couple things to consider that season. There were some last minute rules changes by Dorna (yeah unheard of right...) that mostly effected the HRC riders, particularly frustrated Stoner. The weight allowances and a tire issue. Dorna, perhaps hoping to avoid a repeat from the previous year, instituted some performance leveling.

Jumkie said:

Agree. And I said as much back then. Im laughing because I was taken to task by some Casey fans for suggesting his head wasn't in it.


A couple things to consider that season. There were some last minute rules changes by Dorna (yeah unheard of right...) that mostly effected the HRC riders, particularly frustrated Stoner. The weight allowances and a tire issue. Dorna, perhaps hoping to avoid a repeat from the previous year, instituted some performance leveling.

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I think people forget that at the end of the day, in spite of how good these guys are as riders, they are still people, and can be expected to do human things. There's a lot of great drivers out there who basically quit and continued circling around tracks just well enough to get paid, and even occasionally picked up the odd victory in doing so.

If he sort of mentally packed it in after those rule changes, I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised. If anything he probably thought his choice to retire was fully justified at that point.

The real shame about performance leveling, is that fans don't seem to get how much it hurts the truly talented in my opinion. It's the sort of myopic thinking that has fans suckered into believing salary cap sports leagues actually result in competitive balance, which they don't. The more stringent technical regulations are, the smaller the operating window becomes for the machine...and the smaller the operating window, it allows riders to keep up with guys they've got no business keeping up with since there is no mythical bike that suddenly rides at 110% because you've got one of the purported "aliens" on it. I'm in a minority though since I can distinctly remember a time in my life when motor racers would take commanding leads because they had a machine perfectly suited for a given track, and that's the way it was. So instead of seeing the supremely talented shine, we more and more see them forced to circle around with the rest of the hacks.

JPSLotus said:

I think people forget that at the end of the day, in spite of how good these guys are as riders, they are still people, and can be expected to do human things. There's a lot of great drivers out there who basically quit and continued circling around tracks just well enough to get paid, and even occasionally picked up the odd victory in doing so.

If he sort of mentally packed it in after those rule changes, I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised. If anything he probably thought his choice to retire was fully justified at that point.

The real shame about performance leveling, is that fans don't seem to get how much it hurts the truly talented in my opinion. It's the sort of myopic thinking that has fans suckered into believing salary cap sports leagues actually result in competitive balance, which they don't. The more stringent technical regulations are, the smaller the operating window becomes for the machine...and the smaller the operating window, it allows riders to keep up with guys they've got no business keeping up with since there is no mythical bike that suddenly rides at 110% because you've got one of the purported "aliens" on it. I'm in a minority though since I can distinctly remember a time in my life when motor racers would take commanding leads because they had a machine perfectly suited for a given track, and that's the way it was. So instead of seeing the supremely talented shine, we more and more see them forced to circle around with the rest of the hacks.

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Absolutely agree, both about performance levelling and you being in a minority in your attitude towards it, along with me as it happens. The what not infrequently seem contrived to achieve a last lap stoush yellow flags in NASCAR are a further example IMO and one reason I can't get enthused about that sport.

Certainly the late rule changes confirmed Stoner's view of the sport and Dorna's attitude to him. I don't think the changes were necessarily directed at scuppering him, or at least not entirely so, but as I have said previously to Jumkie it is a truism that just because you are paranoid doesn't mean that everyone isn't after you.

Stoner was totally dominant prior to the changes, having half a second or more on the field in testing before them. I think this would have translated into the season, although he still may have crashed at Indy which was I believe significantly track related as Jumkie said.

Nevertheless Stoner still probably had good enough equipment to win the championship, and was definitely behind Dani going to Indy because he had been out ridden by him, notably in the German and Italian races. My contention was that the margin of victory was affected by injury, not that Dani hadn't really beaten him in 2012.

However Dani still didn't parlay beating Stoner into winning the championship, and unlike Lorenzo, MM, Stoner and obviously even more so Rossi has never put together a complete season in the premier class and appears rather unlikely to ever do so.

michaelm said:

Absolutely agree, both about performance levelling and you being in a minority in your attitude towards it, along with me as it happens. The what not infrequently seem contrived to achieve a last lap stoush yellow flags in NASCAR are a further example IMO and one reason I can't get enthused about that sport.

Certainly the late rule changes confirmed Stoner's view of the sport and Dorna's attitude to him. I don't think the changes were necessarily directed at scuppering him, or at least not entirely so, but as I have said previously to Jumkie it is a truism that just because you are paranoid doesn't mean that everyone isn't after you.

Stoner was totally dominant prior to the changes, having half a second or more on the field in testing before them. I think this would have translated into the season, although he still may have crashed at Indy which was I believe significantly track related as Jumkie said.

Nevertheless Stoner still probably had good enough equipment to win the championship, and was definitely behind Dani going to Indy because he had been out ridden by him, notably in the German and Italian races. My contention was that the margin of victory was affected by injury, not that Dani hadn't really beaten him in 2012.

However Dani still didn't parlay beating Stoner into winning the championship, and unlike Lorenzo, MM, Stoner and obviously even more so Rossi has never put together a complete season in the premier class and appears rather unlikely to ever do so.

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I watch NASCAR on a fairly regular basis, though I don't follow any of the news happenings closely enough to consider myself a diehard fan or anything of that nature. Sunday nights race at Darlington was a prime example of why NASCAR needs to lay off the ....... caution flags. Well actually, it's sort of a catch-22 because they do some of them for safety purposes because of debris, but it's overkill since when someone spins out, that brings out the caution lol. If there is oil and shrapnel on the circuit it makes sense. Problem is, it causes a race to be 4 1/2 to 5 hours as a result because of their endless cautions. I made it to lap 310 or so before I passed out, and there were still 50 laps to go. I don't know if shorter races are the answer, but less ....... cautions would be a start. And less dicking around with the rules would be even better. If the cars better resembled stock cars as they did many years ago, that would make for far better watching IMO.

Agreed with your assessment of Dani. It's a shame Stoner didn't stick around beyond 2012 as I really lament the lost chance to see Casey against MM. That would have been explosive for my money, and would probably have done far more to put MM in his place. Hard to get put in your place when your teammate just isn't the guy who is consistent enough to put together the sort of season you need to in order to win.

Stoner definitely could have won 2012, and perhaps should have. I think in any other year, he would have won that title barring the Indy crash, but that combined with it being the end of the road just weren't the best of circumstances.

I do think those rules changes were definitely aimed at him since he had the misfortune of not having a supporting fanbase like the Rossi boppers. Had he, I bet those rules never happen, and he would have won the title quite easily.