Help Rossi Decide

basspete · Jun 23, 2012

michaelm said:
Of course he would, and he is undoubtedly the greatest of all time as it stands. This however, at least imo, does not mean that all other achievements in gp racing are entirely negligible, particularly (leaving stoner out of it) those of freddie spencer.

Spencer's achievement were incredible, sadly he pushed himself too far, and didn't know when to walk away. Stoner's achievements are incredible too, I have no problem admitting that. sadly some people cannot accept that they did not achieve the success of Rossi, and rewriting history doesn't work.

Keshav · Jun 23, 2012

basspete said:
Hey Kesh, sorry to tell you, Rossi is the most successful racer of the modern era. As your countryman says, numbers don't lie, doesn't matter how you try an dress it up, Lorenzo is the only rider in danger of coming close. Stoner is half a season from joining the list of 2 time champions, end of 2012, he is history, unless he does some Spenceresque comebacks to properly drag his name through the dirt. More than Likely he will join Bayliss in the happy dreamworld of what might have been.

What makes me laugh is that all you boners shouting bout how Stoner is awesome an Rossi is pish forget who took the title back from him in 08 an 09, back when he was givin it Sekonda big time. His post Laguna 08 meltdown was frankly embarrassing to watch, in 09 his "health issues" gave him a get out clause, but faced with a fully fit Jorge in 2010, there was no place to run. He did not defend his title in 08 and he wont in 2012.

There will be no mention of his name on here this time next year, the boners will be gone, and normal service will be resumed.

Ochh mann. Dinna wurry yer littl head. I am not a Rossi hater. Just relaying a fact. Besides you never seem to feel sorry over the need to point out Rossi's accomplishments. Otherwise why would you feel the need to sing the same song over and over again ad nausem? It's a catchy tune I will admit.

As to your belief that Stoner's name will disappear from the forum next year - consider that Schwantz only won a single championship and nary a day goes by without his name popping up and his day was done three decades ago. All the hate in the world cannot take away what Stoner has done during his brief stay in MGP. Even if he'd only taken the first championship - he'd go down in the annals of MGP history as the only madman ever to win a MGP championship on the POS Ducati. You know, the bike that left Rossi a broken man.

BarryMachine · Jun 23, 2012

basspete said:
No Bayliss is the GOAT, he beat them both in 06 and neither of them ever beat him again .

Really? And how many Motogp World Championships does he have now?

Arrabbiata1 · Jun 23, 2012

BarryMachine said:
Really? And how many Motogp World Championships does he have now?

Another sucker punch.

Where's the 'straight over the head emoticon' when you need it? Barry please stop repeatedly making a fool of yourself it's becoming painful watching you punching above your weight and repeatedly getting knocked down. Have some pride man.

michaelm · Jun 23, 2012

basspete said:
Spencer's achievement were incredible, sadly he pushed himself too far, and didn't know when to walk away. Stoner's achievements are incredible too, I have no problem admitting that. sadly some people cannot accept that they did not achieve the success of Rossi, and rewriting history doesn't work.

No one says stoner is better than rossi overall, except barry, who you at least are perceptive enough to realise is often "taking the urine" as they say. Perspective is all as they also say, and from some perspectives other than yours most anti-rossi sentiment followed rather than preceded years of vilification of the character of stoner and other riders, and denigration of their lesser but still worthy achievements. Birdman has said he was happy with stoner winning one championship; being perhaps less mature I was very keen on him winning a second to prove you guys wrong , but like barry I am happy with what he has done. He was never going to match rossi however long he rode, but I suspect you guys would still find reasons he hadn't really won if he won 15 championships.

Your attitude to freddie spencer is the one I find most puzzling for one of your alleged background. Even If his demise, which followed great glory anyway, was due to psychological problems, why do such problems warrant vilification? My understanding , from later reading, is that a significant part of his problem was physical anyway (not that this should make any difference), with him having carpal tunnel syndrome or arm pump, the latter not well recognised in his day.

Arrabbiata1 · Jun 23, 2012

michaelm said:
No one says stoner is better than rossi overall, except barry, who you at least are perceptive enough to realise is often "taking the urine" as they say. Perspective is all as they also say, and from some perspectives other than yours most anti-rossi sentiment followed rather than preceded years of vilification of the character of stoner and other riders, and denigration of their lesser but still worthy achievements. Birdman has said he was happy with stoner winning one championship; being perhaps less mature I was very keen on him winning a second to prove you guys wrong , but like barry I am happy with what he has done. He was never going to match rossi however long he rode, but I suspect you guys would still find reasons he hadn't really won if he won 15 championships.

Your attitude to freddie spencer is the one I find most puzzling for one of your alleged background. Even If his demise, which followed great glory anyway, was due to psychological problems, why do such problems warrant vilification? My understanding , from later reading, is that a significant part of his problem was physical anyway (not that this should make any difference), with him having carpal tunnel syndrome or arm pump, the latter not well recognised in his day.

Wasn't there some speculation that this was accompanied by C.F.S. or even M.E? again both conditions which were poorly understood at the time. Sheene had similar issues in 1977. Over thirty years later when it befell Stoner he was widely lampooned.

BarryMachine · Jun 23, 2012

Arrabbiata1 said:
Another sucker punch.

Where's the 'straight over the head emoticon' when you need it? Barry please stop repeatedly making a fool of yourself it's becoming painful watching you punching above your weight and repeatedly getting knocked down. Have some pride man.

You are an ......

If you are going to sook and whinge at me, maybe you should ask Pete to do same

At least you kept your adolescent prattle short this time.

michaelm · Jun 23, 2012

Arrabbiata1 said:
Wasn't there some speculation that this was accompanied by C.F.S. or even M.E? again both conditions which were poorly understood at the time. Sheene had similar issues in 1977. Over thirty years later when it befell Stoner he was widely lampooned.

Exactly. Ffs, only knowing sheene totally, and fast freddie mainly, historically it is fairly obvious both whilst not as good as rossi were very, very good and probably among the greats due to their performances at their peaks. I don't know whether stoner is/was as good as them, but he was still better than respectable by any standard, and gave his fans including me great pleasure.

michaelm · Jun 23, 2012

Arrabbiata1 said:
Wasn't there some speculation that this was accompanied by C.F.S. or even M.E? again both conditions which were poorly understood at the time. Sheene had similar issues in 1977.

Commonly regarded as synonymous. Certainly not well understood 30 years ago, not least by me, and possibly still not well understood.

Keshav · Jun 23, 2012

michaelm said:
No one says stoner is better than rossi overall, except barry, who you at least are perceptive enough to realise is often "taking the urine" as they say. Perspective is all as they also say, and from some perspectives other than yours most anti-rossi sentiment followed rather than preceded years of vilification of the character of stoner and other riders, and denigration of their lesser but still worthy achievements. Birdman has said he was happy with stoner winning one championship; being perhaps less mature I was very keen on him winning a second to prove you guys wrong , but like barry I am happy with what he has done. He was never going to match rossi however long he rode, but I suspect you guys would still find reasons he hadn't really won if he won 15 championships.

Your attitude to freddie spencer is the one I find most puzzling for one of your alleged background. Even If his demise, which followed great glory anyway, was due to psychological problems, why do such problems warrant vilification? My understanding , from later reading, is that a significant part of his problem was physical anyway (not that this should make any difference), with him having carpal tunnel syndrome or arm pump, the latter not well recognised in his day.

Spencer and Stoner are both guilty of the same crime. Exhibiting vulnerability. It's the Conan Syndrome. In the minds of manly, macho types who are terrified of any feelings much beyond the range of rage or laughter at the expense of those they (or their local football team) have vanquished - who believe it's a greater sign of virility to poison themselves with excessive amounts of booze than to ever god-forbid express feelings of fear or sadness - expressing vulnerability is the ultimate betrayal of the myth of the hard-drinking, bar-fighting, neanderthal macho man. If these guys had been around in the '20s and '30s they'd have branded Gandhi as a pansy in a skirt.

Another yardstick (phallic reference unintended) around here is who has the biggest post.... count.

Arrabbiata1 · Jun 23, 2012

BarryMachine said:
You are an ......

If you are going to sook and whinge at me, maybe you should ask Pete to do same

At least you kept your adolescent prattle short this time.

It's not so much as you say 'sooking' or 'winging', I'm genuinely embarrassed for you.

More to your preference Barry?

13732:images.jpeg]

Or perhaps a rare shot of you backing it in...

13733:Barry Backing in.jpg]

Keshav · Jun 23, 2012

Arrabbiata1 said:
It's not so much as you say 'sooking' or 'winging', I'm genuinely embarrassed for you.

More to your preference Barry?

13732:images.jpeg]

Or perhaps a rare shot of you backing it in...

13733:Barry Backing in.jpg]

mad mick · Jun 23, 2012

basspete said:
Spencer's achievement were incredible, sadly he pushed himself too far, and didn't know when to walk away. Stoner's achievements are incredible too, I have no problem admitting that. sadly some people cannot accept that they did not achieve the success of Rossi, and rewriting history doesn't work.

Who is rewriting history, Pete? History is bollocks anyway - I know a lot of the history I was taught at school turned out to be BS. No body denies Rossi has the most titles and victories. But numbers are not everything - unless you are a boring as bat-.... accountant. It's how the numbers are interpreted. Rossi's and Stoner's circumstances are totally different, and comparing them by title and race victories does not give one an accurate comparison. Comparing them by head to head is not accurate either. There are too many things going on there to compare them by numbers alone. The numbers are meaningless, in my opinion. Kevin Schwantz is a great example. He's only got one title to his name. But why is he a legend and not forgotten? There are lots of reasons, and we could discuss all those reasons all day and night. But it boils down to the fact that he was basically a great rider. He didn't need to win a bag of titles to prove it. Either does Stoner. Also, define "success"...

One could easily say Rossi is the most successful. If your definition of success is the most wins, then sure, Rossi is the man. But others could easily, and credibly, argue for Stoner. He won in his first season on a factory bike, a piece of crap at that - sure, it was fast, but still a pig to ride. He is the only rider to win a title for Ducati. He continued to win races for Ducati and post very competitive results on what has always been a notorious brand of motorcycle. He then won the title in his first year at Honda. Then walked away at the top of his game as a young man with nothing else he wanted to prove. That sounds pretty darn successful to me! That's not rewriting or distorting history. It all depends on one's point of view. And there's more to life than numbers - unless one's thinking is stuck in the left hemisphere of the brain.

My conclusion (and this is THE last time I will ever be sucked into this debate) is that Rossi and Stoner are BOTH great riders. "Possibly" the two greatest riders of their time. End of!

Keshav · Jun 23, 2012

The unsophisticated man uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts - for support rather than for illumination.

xx CURVE xx · Jun 23, 2012

Arrabbiata1 said:
It's not so much as you say 'sooking' or 'winging', I'm genuinely embarrassed for you.

More to your preference Barry?

13732:images.jpeg]

Or perhaps a rare shot of you backing it in...

13733:Barry Backing in.jpg]

a day at the farm with Stoner?

michaelm · Jun 23, 2012

Keshav said:
The unsophisticated man uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts - for support rather than for illumination.

Freddie spencer was indisputably great for 3 years at least as far as I can tell, which you can probably tell better, including as you have said the unbelievable feat of winning the 250cc championship while beating eddie lawson, whom I know from contemporaneous observation to be great, quite likely among the top 5 riders of all time, for the 500cc championship; they won't even let anyone try to do this anymore, possibly for safety reasons. If he declined after that, rather than continuing for a decade like valentino, it makes valentino by most standards greater, quite possibly greater than anyone else as even mick doohan has conceded, but doesn't for any reason I can fathom mean that freddie wasn't great for those years.

I also don't have the mental flexibility at my advanced age to simultaneously hold that freddie demeaned himself by continuing and stoner demeaned himself by quitting.

basspete · Jun 23, 2012

BarryMachine said:
You are an ......

If you are going to sook and whinge at me, maybe you should ask Pete to do same

At least you kept your adolescent prattle short this time.

Barry please stop mate you are killing me! Why don't you book a flight tae Scotland to see the home of your ancestors, and we can all meet up for a few drams an a bit o music, you can bring that fretless bass ukulele I want you to build me with you.

Hey I could even take you to a kilt maker, and get you a kilt in the McSheene tartan.

Remember Barry, if it's not Scottish, it's crap, but hey, you ken that!

Jumkie · Jun 23, 2012

Arrabbiata1 said:
Another sucker punch.

Where's the 'straight over the head emoticon' when you need it? Barry please stop repeatedly making a fool of yourself it's becoming painful watching you punching above your weight and repeatedly getting knocked down. Have some pride man.

Keshav · Jun 23, 2012

michaelm said:
Freddie spencer was indisputably great for 3 years at least as far as I can tell, which you can probably tell better, including as you have said the unbelievable feat of winning the 250cc championship while beating eddie lawson, whom I know from contemporaneous observation to be great, quite likely among the top 5 riders of all time, for the 500cc championship; they won't even let anyone try to do this anymore, possibly for safety reasons. If he declined after that, rather than continuing for a decade like valentino, it makes valentino by most standards greater, quite possibly greater than anyone else as even mick doohan has conceded, but doesn't for any reason I can fathom mean that freddie wasn't great for those years.

I also don't have the mental flexibility at my advanced age to simultaneously hold that freddie demeaned himself by continuing and stoner demeaned himself by quitting.

[/left][/left]

That's because yer a danged quitter.

basspete · Jun 23, 2012

Keshav said:
That's because yer a danged quitter.

Thats a bit rich fae a banjo player, have you ever played an instrument with men's strings?

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