Help needed for info about SNS and Bridgestone switch.

Daniboy said:

Who's Jim Crow?

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Daniboy said:

Ah so we're comparing racial segregation to a motorcycle race, just a shade on the drastic side methinks....

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Jumkie said:

First of all, I'm both shocked and amused you were unaware of what were Jim Crow laws. I admit, i was fully expecting you to come back with an "I was joking" after being caught in ignorance.

Though again you've made the wrong conclusion, this... unsurprisingly, and quite normal for a person that apparently was an aware of such a glaring example of how rules can be manipulated for a specific purpose. No, it was not to compare the segregation to MotoGP, it was however an attempt for you to understand how rules are not inherently fair or just, and that those in a position to write the rules do so for self serving purposes.

Anyway Daniboy, I think this little exchange helped me understand why this discussion seems to be getting lost. Thanks for being honest.

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Daniboy said:

What's ignorant about not knowing about Jim Crow laws specifically? I do know about racial segregation etc but I would suggest knowledge of those laws and their nickname? would come more naturally to me if I was born in the USA!
Perhaps your argument should be with the F.I.M as they write the rules, the teams job is to interpret them in the best manner to give their rider the greatest advantage possible without actually breaking them.

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Daniboy said:

Perhaps your argument should be with the F.I.M as they write the rules, the teams job is to interpret them in the best manner to give their rider the greatest advantage possible without actually breaking them.

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povol said:

Understandable!. Im sure there are snippets of history from your country which are common knowledge that others across the globe would never have heard about

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Daniboy said:

What's ignorant about not knowing about Jim Crow laws specifically? I do know about racial segregation etc but I would suggest knowledge of those laws and their nickname? would come more naturally to me if I was born in the USA!
Perhaps your argument should be with the F.I.M as they write the rules, the teams job is to interpret them in the best manner to give their rider the greatest advantage possible without actually breaking them.

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paparazzo said:

You don't have argue with the FIM. The advantages of SNS tires is exaggerated and invented by this forum. The only place on the internet you will read about 'SNS' is right here, all ........ opinion, legend, fantasy and speculation...'tell a lie often enough...."

Don't let some of these schizoids here try and make you feel ignorant. The average American doesn't know where Canada is and have trouble finding it on map...

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paparazzo said:

You don't have argue with the FIM. The advantages of SNS tires is exaggerated and invented by this forum. The only place on the internet you will read about 'SNS' is right here, all ........ opinion, legend, fantasy and speculation...'tell a lie often enough...."

Don't let some of these schizoids here try and make you feel ignorant. The average American doesn't know where Canada is and have trouble finding it on map...

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povol said:

Then why go to the trouble and huge expense to have couriers scrambling all over Europe. What kind of advantage do you think we are talking about here?

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paparazzo said:

You don't have argue with the FIM. The advantages of SNS tires is exaggerated and invented by this forum. The only place on the internet you will read about 'SNS' is right here, all ........ opinion, legend, fantasy and speculation...'tell a lie often enough...."

Don't let some of these schizoids here try and make you feel ignorant. The average American doesn't know where Canada is and have trouble finding it on map...

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Over on Superbikeplanet.com (link is external), there's a great picture of Rossi (link is external)'s ruined rear tire, which caused him to slow and, Yamaha (link is external) claims, caused his bike to overheat and blow coolant all over the track. I can't post it here because of copyright reasons, but here's a link to it:
http://superbikeplanet.com/image/2006/mgp/usgp/rossi-laguna/8.jpg (link is external)

If you look at the left-hand side of the tire, you can see a large strip where the rubber has let go. The interesting part about it is that the line of damage seems to be more or less along the line where the two different compounds in the dual-compound tires are joined. After Rossi's front tire delaminated (or to put it in layperson's terms, blew a chunk of rubber from one of the layers) in Shanghai, there was some speculation that the Michelins are not well suited to the Yamaha's power and handling characteristics this year, especially as the Honda riders have not had anywhere near as many tire problems so far this season.

Now, the following is all idle speculation, but I hope you'll bear with me, as it could be interesting speculation: I'm sure you will all remember Max Biaggi's performance on the main factory Repsol Honda (link is external) last year. He spent almost the entire season complaining of chatter, and his complaining probably cost him not just his ride at Repsol, but any other possible ride on a Honda for 2006. Put in a rather oversimplified way, chatter is caused by tires generating more grip than the chassis can handle comfortably. During the 2005 season, virtually no complaints were heard from Yamaha riders about chatter. It seems logical that Michelin would choose to focus the larger portion of their development efforts over the winter on building a tire which would suit the Honda, especially when you consider there are 6 Honda RC211Vs (plus the Team KR (link is external) KR211V bike) running on Michelins in the MotoGP class. It is quite possible that all this development work turned out much better tires, but tires which suited the Honda better than the Yamaha.

You may argue that Michelin loses out by not providing their current world champion, Valentino (link is external) Rossi, with the best possible tires. This overlooks the fact that all of the candidates to take Rossi's title from him are on Michelin-shod Hondas. Either way, Michelin will be able to claim its tires are used by the MotoGP World Champion.

Another noteworthy item is that all of the photos and publicity released about Michelin's test rider Jurgen van den Goorbergh (though, frankly, this has been very, very little) have shown him riding a Yamaha M1. The tests are focused entirely on developing the tires, rather than the bikes, as van den Goorbergh is under contract to Michelin, but it's certainly interesting that so far, as far as we know, the tires have been tested on the Yamaha, rather than the Honda. Nicky Hayden (link is external)'s 51 point lead in the championship race is, of course, eloquent proof that the Michelins work just fine on the Honda.

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Former world champion Valentino Rossi has praised the efforts of Michelin’s main tyre rival Bridgestone after the Japanese factory won three out of the opening four races in 2007.

Rossi admitted Bridgestone had taken a massive leap forward this season with only three Michelin riders finishing in the top ten at the recent Shanghai GP in China. That followed Bridgestone humbling Michelin in Turkey last month by claiming the top six finishes.

The new tyre restrictions implemented for ’07, which limit riders to 17 rear tyres and 14 fronts, has taken away some of advantage Michelin has had in previous years.
Previously, the French factory has had the luxury of manufacturing tyres over a weekend and shipped overnight for its riders.

With that advantage gone, Rossi said: “Under one point of view I am happy because last year we had too much confusion with the new tyres arriving during the weekend.

“But this rule creates some other problems. Now the tyre choice is crucial for the result of the race. I think it’s not just because of the rule.

“Already last year Bridgestone from Brno found something very good and they arrived always at the front with Michelin even with the old rule. So it’s not all about the new rule. But we have to work.”

Rossi said Bridgestone had taken a big jump since the end of winter testing, where Michelin looked favourites to continue its domination of the premier class.

“The situation has changed again and I think Bridgestone has made another step,” added the Fiat Yamaha rider.

“We don’t make the same step but it’s a long championship and the situation is the tyres are always in development.”

Asked where the advantage Bridgestone currently had over Bridgestone, the 28-year-old said: “They are able to open the throttle a little bit earlier than us, especially in the long corners.”

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Valentino Rossi has urged Michelin to improve its new generation 800cc tyres with the most critical phase of the MotoGP series kicking off this weekend in Mugello.

With six races in the next eight weeks, Rossi told MCN the biggest gulf in performance between him and current series leader Casey Stoner is not the huge horsepower advantage held by the Australian’s factory Ducati GP7.

“For me our bigger problem is the tyres. In China my tyre was as good as Bridgestone so we lost only for the top speed against Stoner. But in other tracks Bridgestone has something better.

“So for me after five races our biggest limit is the tyres and we have to improve,” said the 28-year-old Italian, who is undefeated on home soil in Mugello since his second premier class campaign in 2001.

Rossi tested a series of new front and rear tyres last week in Le Mans and he said: “We are looking for more grip from the front, especially when braking going into the corner.

“I think Bridgestone is slightly better, but for me the biggest step we need is from the rear. They are able to open the throttle a little bit earlier than us.

“This is the way to follow for Michelin and they have some good tyres to try. We need more grip on the side of the tyre because with these 800 bikes we open the throttle earlier and with more lean angle, so it is important to have more edge grip.”

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Michelin’s MotoGP chief Jean-Philippe Weber has admitted the recent introduction of a testing team with Yamaha was essential to help Valentino Rossi’s world title challenge against Casey Stoner.

Aussie Andrew Pitt tested Michelin tyres on board a Yamaha YZR-M1 800 machine in Barcelona last month, and is scheduled to take part in at least four more tests before the end of the season.

The move came after Bridgestone’s storming start to the new 800cc era, which has seen the Japanese factory win six out of the opening nine races in 2007.

Yamaha and Valentino Rossi have struggled at some circuits with the new tyre restrictions limiting riders to 17 rear and 14 front tyres over a race weekend.

Valentino Rossi though remains the only rider to win for Michelin this season, and he trails in-form Stoner by 21-points going into the second half of the season at Germany’s Sachsenring on July 15, 2007.

Bridgestone has been able to call on a wealth of information and data from test riders it has had with Ducati, Suzuki and Kawasaki, as well as supplying tyres to more than half of the 2007 MotoGP grid.

Jean-Philippe Weber told MCN: “I think our performance is still good as we have seen in some races and in other races we have been unlucky.

“The Stoner, Ducati and Bridgestone package is very fast and working very well and we have to improve things not only on the tyres but also the overall package.

“It is no secret that we have to help our partners to be quick and to make the development steps required by our partners. As we see in racing, testing is still a very important parameter so of course we have to do it also.”

At present Michelin is only using Yamaha as a test team, but added that it would be no problem if Honda made an official request to form a development squad.

“We will try to have some more testing sessions but right now they are mainly with Yamaha but if Honda wants to join our tests then they can,” said Jean-Philippe Weber.

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Valentino Rossi believes Michelin’s previous tactic of flying in overnight special race tyres is proving the big handicap in his bid to fight against the formidable Casey Stoner, Ducati and Bridgestone package in 2007.

This year’s new premier class tyre restrictions took away a key advantage held by Michelin over rivals Bridgestone, with the French manufacturer no longer able to fly in special rubber made overnight for its riders including factory Yamaha rider Valentino Rossi.

The Italian, who is currently under investigation by Italian authorities over £40m tax evasion, blasted the new tyre rule after his crushing defeat in Laguna Seca last month, where Bridgestone once again humbled Michelin with another clean sweep of the podium.

Valentino Rossi, who returns from the summer break this weekend in Brno trailing Ducati rival Casey Stoner by a massive 44-points, said: “The problem is that the way of working that we had with Michelin was completely different with the tyres that they could make on the weekends.

“That was a big handicap for us, because Bridgestone was already used to working in the way that is now needed. It seems that Bridgestone is working a little bit better.”

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Colin Edwards believes MotoGP bosses should consider a one-make tyre rule for the premier class world championship.

The double World Superbike champion reckons a radical revamp of the current tyre rule would protect MotoGP as a spectacle, with the last three races in Germany, America and the Czech Republic won by embarrassing margins.

Not one rider finished within the same second of each other in last weekend’s Brno clash, with 13 seconds covering the top three.

And Dorna is already worried fans are turning off in their droves at the failure to match the thrilling action of 2006.

MCN understands Dorna boss has already spoken to Bridgestone and Michelin bosses to suggest they consider revising the current tyre restriction rule for 2008 in a bid to get closer racing.

Colin Edwards told MCN: “I look around and think what a waste. You got these manufacturers spending 40 to 50 million dollars to build the best bike they can build, but yet you are counting on two tyre companies to bring the best rubber.

“If Dorna turned around tomorrow and said it’s a one-tyre make and we are all going to run Dunlops next year, then fantastic?

“I don’t care what tyre it is. I just think that some of the hard work and effort is being lost.”

Colin Edwards said his opinion of a controlled tyre had changed having the seen the positive impact it has had on racing as a spectacle in World Superbikes.

When World Superbikes switched to a one-make tyre rule with Pirelli the exclusive tyre supplier, Colin Edwards was sceptical about the change.

But he added: “I was against the one-tyre rule when they brought it out in World Superbikes. I wasn’t there but I was like ‘man that’s crap.’ But the racing has been awesome.

“That’s all I watch when I’m at home. Look at the 250 and 125 races, Dunlop is the tyre and those classes have such good racing because it’s a one-tyre make.

“If I was in charge and had the authority I’d say give me you’re bid. Who has got the best support and who will come in and run the show? Whoever has the best they win, simple as that.”

At the last two races, Bridgestone and Casey Stoner have dominated, while Valentino Rossi and Dani Pedrosa have struggled woefully to get even close to mounting a podium threat because of tyre problems.

In Germany last month, it was Michelin’s turn to dominate as Dani Pedrosa won by the biggest margin in over a decade.
Michelin clearly need to improve their performance for the last six races, but Edwards reckons there will be on immediate backlash from the French manufacturer.

“I think if they had something we’d have seen something. My honest opinion is that if Michelin could have replied we’d have known by now.

“We’d have an inclination that they have got something up their sleeve but I haven’t seen or heard anything yet,” said Edwards.

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