Help needed for info about SNS and Bridgestone switch.

JPSLotus said:

Too bad you have zero ability to think critically, and think the world just operates on the up and up, in spite of zero evidence to support any of this. Sports that are global, but European based all have huge integrity/corruption issues; FIFA, IOC, and F1 are prime examples of this. That's no shock though since European standards have generally been lacking in everything. Took the USA to get the ball rolling quite literally on Sepp Blatter since all Europe did was sit there twiddling it's thumbs. Bernie Ecclestone paid a bribe to get out of a bribery trial. Only in Europe. GP is no different.

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I have zero ability to base my opinion on anything but truth, one article is not going to change that!

JPSLotus said:

Took the USA to get the ball rolling quite literally on Sepp Blatter since all Europe did was sit there twiddling it's thumbs. Bernie Ecclestone paid a bribe to get out of a bribery trial. Only in Europe. GP is no different.

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NFL is hardly corruption free though either to name just one, so it's not just the Europeans.

Daniboy said:

I have zero ability to base my opinion on anything but truth, one article is not going to change that!

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The truth is what your bias wants it to be though isn't it? I'm not having a dig but some people believe the truth that MotoGP is rigged, or certainly tipped in the favour of the most popular rider. Others, such as yourself, believe in the thruth that it is as clean as springwater.

Anyone who doesn't think tyres can make the difference in rider speed have never raced.

#22 said:

NFL is hardly corruption free though either to name just one, so it's not just the Europeans.



The truth is what your bias wants it to be though isn't it? I'm not having a dig but some people believe the truth that MotoGP is rigged, or certainly tipped in the favour of the most popular rider. Others, such as yourself, believe in the thruth that it is as clean as springwater.

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I am biased towards the truth and not hearsay and mangled quotes, as I said in the thread I wrote , I think Dorna runs a fair series, otherwise we would have only one champion for the last decade and not four.

Daniboy said:

I am biased towards the truth and not hearsay and mangled quotes, as I said in the thread I wrote , I think Dorna runs a fair series, otherwise we would have only one champion for the last decade and not four.

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And as someone who has been involved in F1, the 4 wheeled equivalent of MotoGP, I can truthfully say that "The truth" about the politics and vested interests would most probably shock you.

I don't believe the series is rigged as strongly as some posters here, but I can truthfully say, given my experience in top level motorsport, that MotoGP is not run fairly to all parties.

I know the powers that be do listen more to the top riders, that's natural. But I do believe the series is kept fair among them, all Dorna want is the show and the cash it brings, I don't believe they want one rider winning all the time.

Daniboy said:

I know the powers that be do listen more to the top riders, that's natural. But I do believe the series is kept fair among them, all Dorna want is the show and the cash it brings, I don't believe they want one rider winning all the time.

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Course they don't want the same bloke winning, that's why when one does they give certain advantages to certain individuals

Tyres are the single biggest factor on motorbike performance

Daniboy said:

I know the powers that be do listen more to the top riders, that's natural. But I do believe the series is kept fair among them, all Dorna want is the show and the cash it brings, I don't believe they want one rider winning all the time.

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Jumkie said:

It's fascinating how so much underbelly is exposed on the subject of Rossi's centric driven tires bias throughout the years, the reaction from those refusing to see the trend is to stick their heads in the sand, scream "conspiracy" (as if that magically makes it all go away).

22, despite so many being unaware of the effect of SNS-doping, some members that know about have found some way to rationalize it didn't represent some advatages. Despite a quote from Rossi saying in effect, 'tires decide the race'. These same people will point to 08/09 and declared, no SNS existed then, but like your post above, they seem oblivious to Dorna's influence over the tire supplier. Let me add a bit of forgotten 'truth' (I say "truth" because like J4rn0, Daniboy declared he only believes in "truth" despite the truth being in his face he still doesn't seem to get it). In 2008, at the Brno race, there was a special safety meeting before the race, ALL the Michelin riders demanded of Dorna to declare a "single tire supplier". Some Bridgestone riders didn't want this. Keep in mind, the only rider that was allowed to switch to Bridgestone in 08 was Rossi. And like your article above, Casey Stoner was aware that the tires had become restricted and changed detrimental to him, hence why he requested to use the 07 spec Bridgestone during the 08 season. These are all facts, or as Daniboy might say "untruth". Dorna was so unsympathetic to their plight (and why would Dorna care, Rossi was already happy on 'his' Bridgestones) for the Michelin riders that they attempted to do something similar to the F1 2005 protest of drivers at Indy. Do you remember that? (Daniboy is BJCing as he reads this.) Before the Brno race Dani Pedrosa tried to convince all the Michelin riders to pull in after the warm up lap! That is right, refuse to race as an open protest to the TIRE situation!

Well, unfortunately the Michelin riders didn’t unite (despite ALL of them expressing themselves with the same sentiment in the 'private' safety meeting). It's difficult to put your neck on the line in an environment where you're aware of the repercussions that surely would come from Dorna. Why did Dani Pedrosa feel so strongly that he could challenge Dorna's refusal to allow him and others to switch to Bridgestone? Simple. Because Alberto Puig, a powerful figure and advocate for Pedrosa was on his side, and in fact (or "untruth") was actively trying to instigate the Michelin shod riders to pull into the pits and refuse to race! This is sensation stuff.

In the words of Rossi: '...because tires decide races.' Which is convenient for him given he has had much influence over his tires where not even the second most power rider in 2008 could get a switch. Though power politics did allow Pedrosa to switch mid season in 2008 (Edit correction). I'm sure Alberto Puig was busy after Brno 08 having his own 'motorhome meetings'. Though consider to what length Albert Puig was willing to go, given his knowledge of the sport, surely Carmelo didn't want a unhappy Puig. I should note, that while Pedrosa was allowed to switch to Bridgestone 'mid season' Nicky Hayden did not. Indication of power politics? Of course. Or as J4rn0 and Daniboy might say, "untruths".

Combine that incident, with Stoner's above, with Pedrosa's recent comments after Jerez...

Dani Pedrosa also had some scathing comments about the Michelin tires change in performance after Jerez 16. Interestingly, Michelin seem quite satisfied at the moment with their tire. Sound familiar? The truth is not so subtle, but that's never stopped anyone from seeing it.

'It's the tires stupid.'

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Daniboy said:

I have zero ability to base my opinion on anything but truth, one article is not going to change that!

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It's not the only article, Noyes talked about it as have others.

The quotes are pretty specific.

Generally the problem you and others have, is that you can't really believe that something like this was going on. It seems outrageous because you would never do something like that, so you project onto others your own inability to engage in unethical behavior, and assume that it requires an untold amount of effort to pull this off. It really doesn't. Sometimes the best way to engage in fraudulent behavior is to do it in plain sight, or to prey on people's trusting nature. Sure you might read about this stuff in the news, but it tends to become a more abstract idea that seems disconnected from whatever way you tend to view the world. You also believe it is a completely isolated incident that is a complete aberration to human nature when many times it is not.

It's sort of like how when people hear about awful news, the reactions are many of the same tired cliches like, "I can't believe he did that" or "I never would have guessed" or "He seemed so normal and nice". Reconciling reality with one's own personal worldview is more difficult than it might appear on face value. That's why witness identifications can be spotty because an event can unfold in front of 4 people, and you will get 4 different --sometimes vastly-- accounts of what has happened. I once watched a woman engaging in a series of thefts, and when I reviewed security footage, you know what was the most amazing aspect of it? She did it in plain sight. There were people literally next to her, or they had her in their line of sight from 5 feet away, yet they never processed what she was doing. Of a number of victims, only one ever noticed they were robbed, and that was after the fact.

Bernie Madoff is a great example of the ability to pull of a con and fool many people who you'd assume would know otherwise, but never even noticed he was running a Ponzi Scheme. The confidence trick is how much of this stuff is done, and it works because it preys upon basic human nature...and human nature being human nature, it doesn't change, hence why it happens all the time.

You and the rest of the doubters seem to think GP is somehow immune to human nature, but the entire success of GP is based solely upon the consistency of human nature. People believe...no, they have to believe the competition is conducted legitimately. That is the base for all professional sports - the belief that the competition is conducted legitimately, and fairly. Sure there may be some instances where such things come to light, but in order to reconcile that with the belief held in the sport, fans often opt to view it as an isolated incident. Even when more incidents occur, the fans will reach for the easiest explanations so as not to undermine their long-held beliefs. Take the Steroid Era of baseball, most people today believe steroids/PED use was limited to a small period of time in the game. The record reflects this to be a total fabrication. For as long as the game has been played, cheating has existed. The media, fans, and even at times the administrators of the sport rationalize it all away through various explanations. Commissioner Allan "Bud" Selig looked the other way on the steroids issue in spite of being made aware of it long before it became a news story. Owners looked the other way. In fact most everyone looked away because it was easier to do than to admit there was tacit approval given to let this go on. Even worse were the reactions after the fact where those who knew, suddenly pretended they didn't, and were screaming about how awful it all was. Yet, none of them gave back their untold millions of dollars earned. Ownership who benefited from it all, then colluded after the 2007 season to run Barry Bonds out of the game in the offseason because they didn't want anymore press on steroids. Everyone believes the game is clean today and that when a guy gets suspended for PED use, it's once again an isolated incident. It's not, but people tell themselves what feels comfortable to themselves.

That's why the case of Valentino Rossi and the Saturday Night Specials is one of the most successful cons. Few fans can reconcile it with their worldviews, and cannot believe such blatant cheating would be happening...all in spite of evidence showing that this stuff goes on all the time in sports and fans engage in the usual ignorance to it.

Just remember, Estoril 2006 has been portrayed by many fans as a what?

"Isolated incident."

#22 said:

NFL is hardly corruption free though either to name just one, so it's not just the Europeans.



The truth is what your bias wants it to be though isn't it? I'm not having a dig but some people believe the truth that MotoGP is rigged, or certainly tipped in the favour of the most popular rider. Others, such as yourself, believe in the thruth that it is as clean as springwater.

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I don't dispute the NFL being corruption free...my point is that all of the global level sports are not American. All of the top tier global sports suffer from severe corruption. As I said, Sepp Blatter only went down because the Department of Justice got involved. The European Union and governments fiddled away doing nothing.

If there had been a rule against it then yes it would be cheating, show me the rule that applied to those tyres in that period.

No one has used the word cheating here Dani. That's a wordplay again. What Jums and others have said is RIGGED. I.e. the series and rules have been tailoired to suit a particular rider.

rig2
rɪɡ/
verb
past tense: rigged; past participle: rigged

manage or conduct (something) fraudulently so as to gain an advantage.

SNS tyres were allowed within the rules from 2000-2006. No one is arguing that. However, if the SNS tyres that one rider gets are significantly better than the others, then no according to the rulebook it isn't cheating. However it is "Managing something fraudulently as to gain an advantage" which is the definition of rigged.

Daniboy said:

I have zero ability to base my opinion on anything but truth, one article is not going to change that!

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Which in my opinion is a good trait. Another good trait is not to be a follower, especially a blind one. All anyone is trying to say is there is enough evidence for many to reach the conclusion that Rossi is not what we have been led to believe he is. Is he a great rider, yes, BUT, his greatness has been grossly over exaggerated in the name of profit. Is there 100% proof, no, but if it looks like dog .... and smells like dog ...., its more than likely dog .....

#22 said:

No one has used the word cheating here Dani. That's a wordplay again. What Jums and others have said is RIGGED. I.e. the series and rules have been tailoired to suit a particular rider.

rig2
rɪɡ/
verb
past tense: rigged; past participle: rigged

manage or conduct (something) fraudulently so as to gain an advantage.

SNS tyres were allowed within the rules from 2000-2006. No one is arguing that. However, if the SNS tyres that one rider gets are significantly better than the others, then no according to the rulebook it isn't cheating. However it is "Managing something fraudulently as to gain an advantage" which is the definition of rigged.

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Where I would call the SNS tires cheating is because while available to the top tier, their specifications were designed with one rider alone in mind.

Having a tiered tire system, while not ideal, isn't as much of an issue. But having a tiered tire system where the top tier is then not really a top tier since it's only for one rider in mind, is a significant ethical and sporting problem.

I'm against control tires in general because it allows for too many shenanigans to be had. The fairest way to conduct a race series is to allow for tire competition.

povol said:

Is there 100% proof, no, but if it looks like dog .... and smells like dog ...., its more than likely dog .....

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The only way you can get 100% proof is to taste it

Daniboy said:

I know the powers that be do listen more to the top riders, that's natural. But I do believe the series is kept fair among them, all Dorna want is the show and the cash it brings, I don't believe they want one rider winning all the time.

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There are to many variables to ensure a rider will win all the time, and thats not their goal anyway. With the right tools, he will win more than he would without those tools. Lets say you give a guy a corked bat, is he going to hit a homerun at every bat, no, but his number of homeruns will be higher than without the corked bat. Its still up to him to make contact, but the sweet spot has been enhanced. Now take that same bat, it was turned on a lathe to the batters liking, perfect ounces, barrel dimensions and grip exactly the way he likes it. Now give that bat to another player and his performance may or may not go up because it doesnt feel right. All it takes is a minute advantage to push one athlete past another, in this case, the minute advantage was a tire that he and a few other riders got to use, but was made to his liking.

Daniboy said:

If there had been a rule against it then yes it would be cheating, show me the rule that applied to those tyres in that period.

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You have expressed the collective rationalization for accepting such a gross advantage.

And it is exactly how they (power brokers) get away with it, they legislate it into the rules. Then they can say, well we were just following the rules. Easily done when they got masses like you to accept the obvious inequities.

Daniboy said:

If there had been a rule against it then yes it would be cheating, show me the rule that applied to those tyres in that period.

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The same logic could be applied to the argument of Marquez when he was battling with Rossi in Sepang. But interestingly, Rossi supporters then change their tune.

#22 said:

The same logic could be applied to the argument of Marquez when he was battling with Rossi in Sepang. But interestingly, Rossi supporters then change their tune.

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Hahaha, to the "tune" of three-quarters of a million petitioners. Ha!

Daniboy represent many who point to the "rules" during the SNS era and concluded it was fair because, well it was the rules. They can't imagine why the rules allowed it except think it was fair and reasonable.

Daniboy, are you familiar with Jim Crow laws? But but, those were the "rules".