Help needed for info about SNS and Bridgestone switch.

Jumkie · Apr 20, 2016

Daniboy said:
My opinion is that Toni Elias's win on 'special' tyres PROVES that they worked for riders other than your favourite 'hate' target, so again, no point proven...

No point proven in a statement you say proves something? Are you familiar with the word: contradiction?

Let me use your own standard of proof and logic against you then. First of all, you say Elias wining on SNS "proves" others could benefit.

You say SNS "proved" they are win capable tires in the hands of others, so it does prove something.

Now let's try to apply 'logic' to your statement:

By design, those tires were never made to compete against Rossi by Toni Elias, this incident PROVES this fact, therefore, logically Rossi’s rivals were not supposed to compete with tires they could win against him other than a fluke, which this incident illustrates.

Let's recap:

Daniboy: This incident "proves" others can win on SNS (regardless for who they were designed, in this case supposedly for Pedrosa).

Reality: This incident "proves" the guy who won on these tires was never supposed to use them by design.

Daniboy: This incident "proves" others can win on SNS (regardless for who they were designed, in this case supposedly for Pedrosa).

Reality: This incident "proves" the SNS tailored tires were useless for the person they were designed for, Dani Pedrosa, and by fluke proved to be useful for a rider that was not supposed to use them.

Proof, logic, reality. Don't confuse these concepts.

danski · Apr 20, 2016

Jumkie said:
No point proven in a statement you say proves something? Are you familiar with the word: contradiction?

Let me use your own standard of proof and logic against you then. First of all, you say Elias wining on SNS "proves" others could benefit.

You say SNS "proved" they are win capable tires in the hands of others, so it does prove something.

Now let's try to apply 'logic' to your statement:

By design, those tires were never made to compete against Rossi by Toni Elias, this incident PROVES this fact, therefore, logically Rossi’s rivals were not supposed to compete with tires they could win against him other than a fluke, which this incident illustrates.

Let's recap:

Daniboy: This incident "proves" others can win on SNS (regardless for who they were designed, in this case supposedly for Pedrosa).

Reality: This incident "proves" the guy who won on these tires was never supposed to use them by design.

Daniboy: This incident "proves" others can win on SNS (regardless for who they were designed, in this case supposedly for Pedrosa).

Reality: This incident "proves" the SNS tailored tires were useless for the person they were designed for, Dani Pedrosa, and by fluke proved to be useful for a rider that was not supposed to use them.

Proof, logic, reality. Don't confuse these concepts.

You should be a lawyer , you certainly have skills in turning theoretical truths into 'reality', consider this... If Dani had taken those special's he may never had slid off taking #69 out with him, just a thought

michaelm · Apr 20, 2016

Daniboy said:
I don't think I ever dismissed any other riders achievements, they're all good, I just don't like what I'm seeing on this forum in respect to VR, he has earned all his championships by being the best rider of the years when he won, not because of SNS etc.

My reply wasn't to you.

It has gotten pretty vicious against Rossi on this very small corner of the internet, on the basis of absolutely incontrovertible repeated public statements by Rossi dismissing the 2015 championship as stolen from him, taken up en masse by his fans, and followed similar dismissal of the championship wins by other riders in 2006 and 2007, and of Stoner's 2011 title as being down to equipment by pretty much the same people.

Stoner actually said in his book and elsewhere that the attitude of a certain element among the fan base was significant in his disenchantment with the sport, and MM has made recent direct statements about the power Rossi derives from his large fan base and its use by him to his advantage against his rivals.

tps7c · Apr 20, 2016

michaelm said:
My reply wasn't to you.

iIt has gotten pretty vicious against Rossi on this very small corner of the Internet, on the basis of absolutely icontrovertible repeated public statements by Rossi dismissing the 2015 championship as stolen from him, taken up en masse by his fans, and followed similar dismissal of the championship wins by other riders in 2006 and 2007, and of Stoner's 2011 title as being down to equipment by pretty much the same people.

Stoner actually said in his book and elsewhere that the attitude of a certain element among the fan base was significant in his disenchantment with the sport, and MM has made recent direct statements about the power Rossi derives from his large fan base and its use by him to his advantage against his rivals.

Ok fair enough point. I suggest Marc should have a bake sale, bbq event, open a comic book store, walk door to door with his business card, etc., in order to up his fan base and thus derive his own powerful influence.

michaelm · Apr 20, 2016

tps7c said:
Ok fair enough point. I suggest Marc should have a bake sale, bbq event, open a comic book store, walk door to door with his business card, etc., in order to up his fan base and thus derive his own powerful influence.

That is not the point at all. The precise point made by MM was fundamentally that whoever has the largest fan base shouldn't matter when the riders are actually racing. He had no complaint about Rossi having a large fan base, just how they act and how they are manipulated to his advantage by Rossi.

Your attempted witticism about MM is rather revealing about your real attitude btw, and rather at odds with your very recent contention about respecting the other riders

Jumkie · Apr 20, 2016

Daniboy said:
You should be a lawyer , you certainly have skills in turning theoretical truths into 'reality', consider this... If Dani had taken those special's he may never had slid off taking #69 out with him, just a thought

I have considered this question long before you posed it. However, I do not believe Pedrosa's crash was a problem with 'tires' (this is afterall the crux of our discussion) but rather as Kropo put it, "an act of vindictive self-assertion". Pedrosa was blinded by ambition, wedging his bike too hot into a space where there was none; crashing both out was not a tire failure but an illustration of human failure.

Gaz · Apr 20, 2016

Jumkie said:
I have considered this question long before you posed it. However, I do not believe Pedrosa's crash was a problem with 'tires' (this is afterall the crux of our discussion) but rather as Kropo put it, "an act of vindictive self-assertion". Pedrosa was blinded by ambition, wedging his bike too hot into a space where there was none; crashing both out was not a tire failure but an illustration of human failure.

Ianonne anyone (sorry Sparrow ...... he stuffed up on this one

)

The Dovi/Hayden and Ianonne/Dovi incidents are strikingly similar (remove the championship standings) where I suspect that a rider made a decision to go for a gap that was not really there and subsequently bought their team mates down (and let us not forget Miller/Cal last year in the wet)

That said however, I suspect we would not be having the discussion if the falling rider was not the team mate

Jumkie · Apr 20, 2016

Gaz said:
Ianonne anyone (sorry Sparrow ...... he stuffed up on this one )

The Dovi/Hayden and Ianonne/Dovi incidents are strikingly similar (remove the championship standings) where I suspect that a rider made a decision to go for a gap that was not really there and subsequently bought their team mates down (and let us not forget Miller/Cal last year in the wet)

That said however, I suspect we would not be having the discussion if the falling rider was not the team mate

Absolutely not. Iannone/Dovizioso was a world different than Pedrosa/Hayden.

A turd may look "strikingly similar" to Snickers bar, until you bite into it.

Gaz · Apr 20, 2016

Jumkie said:
Absolutely not. Iannone/Dovizioso was a world different than Pedrosa/Hayden.

A turd may look "strikingly similar" to Snickers bar, until you bite into it.

But that is where your sense of smell is useful

And to me, of course they were similar incidents ......... both young riders ...... up because of blind ambition to beat their team mate at all costs without reconciling the situation that was in front of them and whether the move was likely to succeed or fail with both leaving no margin of error.

Neither were deliberate in the action and both had the same end results - falls for all 4 involved.

Sure Ianonne is more experienced in MotoGP than was Pedrosa at the time but DP was a multiple times world champion across multiple categories - both ...... up.

Jumkie · Apr 20, 2016

Gaz said:
But that is where your sense of smell is useful

And to me, of course they were similar incidents ......... both young riders ...... up because of blind ambition to beat their team mate at all costs without reconciling the situation that was in front of them and whether the move was likely to succeed or fail with both leaving no margin of error.

Neither were deliberate in the action and both had the same end results - falls for all 4 involved.

Sure Ianonne is more experienced in MotoGP than was Pedrosa at the time but DP was a multiple times world champion across multiple categories - both ...... up.

You may want to see a doctor about your olfaction sense then.

I disagree. Iannone was not making a passing attempt, he was attempting to guard his flank from a possible Jerez 05.

Pedrosa was something utterly different.

Gaz · Apr 20, 2016

Jumkie said:
You may want to see a doctor about your olfaction sense then.

I disagree. Iannone was not making a passing attempt, he was attempting to guard his flank from a possible Jerez 05.

Pedrosa was something utterly different.

So we disagree then .... awesome as after all we cannot agree on all things

To me, Ianonne was making an overtake attempt, or at least an attempt of 'I am here' showing of the wheel and ...... it.

Pedrosa was making an overtake attempt and ...... it.

As for my olfaction, it is all good last time it was checked and given that I can smell dog farts at 50 feet I will say it is still ok

Jumkie · Apr 20, 2016

Gaz said:
To me, Ianonne was making an overtake attempt, or at least an attempt of 'I am here' showing of the wheel and ...... it.

You know, my initial thoughts were Iannone screwed up a passing attempt, but when I reviewed it immediately I detected something that did not convince me he was trying to overtake at all. When Iannone explain what happened I wholeheartedly believed him, both because I had seen something that didn't quite jive and because I have no reason to think he was lying.

michaelm · Apr 20, 2016

Jumkie said:
This was the quote I was looking for, thanks, great find. A couple of things I'd like to highlight:

#1: Pedrosa rejected tires supposedly 'tailored for HIM". This flys in the face of those arguing that other riders got tailor made tires with them in mind. Migs said based on the Michelin statement (as if they were going to admit to providing unfair advantages) that it proved others got tires tailored to them. YET, Pedrosa rejected these tires and elected to use....wait for it, tires that were NOT tailored for him! Logical? Why would he do that? Maybe because the tires were tailored, yes, but SUITED someone else? That would certainly make sense.

#2: Those tires were NOT destined for TONI ELIAS, and they were NOT 'TAILORED" for TONI ELIAS. This is a matter of FACT. Not conspiracy or conjecture. However here is another FACT: Toni Elias won the race on these exact tires! Tires that otherwise were NOT destined for Toni Elias, and quite possibly decided the 2006 World Championship! (Stop, if you are reading this, and consider this last statement.) It is quite reasonable and probable that Toni Elias would not have won the Estoril race, and Valentino Rossi would have been a further 5 points up going into Valencia, 5 points was in fact the margin that decided the 2006 championship!

#3: Notice that these 'tailored' "Saturday Night Specials" were described as going "spare". That means they were not going to be used. A small twist of fait, they ended up on Toni Elias' wheels. Multiple this times several years of having 'tailor" made tires for Valentino Rossi. Is there still any doubt in a person capable of reading these word, with the minimal capacity to reason, that this did not translate into a real advantage that decided championships?

The Kropotkin quote was the one I remembered as well. Certainly the tyres proved an advantage for Elias and it seems he didn't get them normally even riding for Gresini Honda.

This whole thread is spurious in any case, involving nitpicking about ancillary evidence, one piece of which has now been produced.

There are very candid quotes as per the OP regarding the race-day tyres from Colin Edwards, Rossi's team-mate and continuing supporter who rode on the tyres, and it is hard to imagine a more direct source.

As I have said, I have my doubts about how much they benefited VR against his major rivals, not because of Paps' quaint avowals that his faith in the Great Yellow One overcomes things like pesky facts and actual occurrences, but because Biaggi, Hayden and Gibernau seemed happy with them. It seems pretty clear that Colin Edwards and others were not, however, and that the likes of Casey Stoner and usually Toni Elias didn't get them at all.

I don't think it was a conspiracy either, just the way Michelin worked then and had worked historically before then; someone posted Mick Doohan wasn't on the list for the top tyres initially.

yamfan · Apr 21, 2016

It's pretty much reported by the press who were "in the know" that the tyres Elias was given that day allowed him to slide his way to victory and do this...

tps7c · Apr 21, 2016

yamfan said:
It's pretty much reported by the press who were "in the know" that the tyres Elias was given that day allowed him to slide his way to victory and do this...

Do what?? Shoot his load all over a bunch of men???

gekko1ro · Apr 22, 2016

tps7c said:
Do what?? Shoot his load all over a bunch of men???

lame. this is the best "david vs goliath" moment in gp i can think of from my very limited knowledge.

evo9 · Apr 22, 2016

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/motogp/factory-2-op-ed/

DAVID EMMETT said:
It also highlights where the difference lays between the top teams and the satellite teams. Winning a race as a satellite rider has become virtually impossible. The last time that happened was when Toni Elias won at Estoril in 2006.
That victory was due in large part to the tires which Elias had, a set of tires made especially for Dani Pedrosa, which the Repsol Honda rider had rejected. They gave Elias enough of a boost for him to win the race.

tps7c · Apr 22, 2016

So if you guys are so convinced the sport is rigged and Rossi is the puppet master, why on earth do you continue to watch, year after year?!?!?!

paparazzo · Apr 22, 2016

tps7c said:
So if you guys are so convinced the sport is rigged and Rossi is the puppet master, why on earth do you continue to watch, year after year?!?!?!

This 'SNS' ........ is just another exaggeration created by this forum to undermine Valentino and his achievements. This is the reason why OP can not find any concrete information not even from the great Google. I watched the race and remember it like yesterday. Elias was wired, riding out of his skin, and out dragged VR in a photo finish with Kenny right behind them. He could have easily been 3rd and no one would be discussing this SNS .........

tps7c · Apr 22, 2016

paparazzo said:
This 'SNS' ........ is just another exaggeration created by this forum to undermine Valentino and his achievements. This is the reason why OP can not find any concrete information not even from the great Google. I watched the race and remember it like yesterday. Elias was wired, riding out of his skin, and out dragged VR in a photo finish with Kenny right behind them. He could have easily been 3rd and no one would be discussing this SNS .........

These guys never want to admit they are wrong about ANYTHING!!!

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