Help needed for info about SNS and Bridgestone switch.

Just some food for thought...John McGuinness set the fastest lap around the Isle of Man Circuit last year at the age of 43 and he just turned 44 on April 16th.

Jumkie said:

While I'm at it, should I Google the press release where Carmelo outlines his preferential treatment of Rossi?

I'll tell you what, I'll keep looking for Michelin's press release where they openly admit to providing Rossi the good stuff. Meanwhile, you look for the official Russian government press release where they openly admit to attacking and invading Ukraine with soldiers who removed their insignias. Both incidents apparently "conspiracies".

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I am a Luddite who doesn't do links.

I did find Tweets/a Twitter exchange of some interest linked to on a site.
"The old Michelin Race day Specials".
motobanzai.com.myfreeforum.org.archive

Tweet from Dennis Noyes
This tyre delivery resulted after one was rejected by another rider in Toni Elias' historic and significant victory
7:16 am 10 Dec 2013 from Borrego Springs

Sir Guy of Guisborne
@DennisNoyes@TobyMoody
The rejector was Dani Pedrosa

Dennis Noyes
@G.H Anderson @TobyMoody
Yes, he was

Aw Mang said:

Lol do you even try to understand what you read before you open your mouth? The point is the tire was cooked to Rossi formula and that should give him the advantage over other riders. Pedrosa couldn't use Rossi tires but Toni Elias got his hands on the Rossi tires at Estoril and we know what happened.

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This is all just ........ hearsay. It's all a bunch of he said she said. There's no hard evidence to back this crap up.

povol said:

My post was in agreeance with you as well. I just found a study that showed reflex's between age groups. The difference between 25-35 age group as i expected was almost immeasurable. 35-45 was considerably more measurable Oddly enough, the age group that was quickest was from 7-14.

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ALMOST immeasurable, is not immeasurable, now is it? And when you are talking about a sport that is measured in hundredths of a second, every little bit makes a difference.

tps7c said:

ALMOST immeasurable, is not immeasurable, now is it? And when you are talking about a sport that is measured in hundredths of a second, every little bit makes a difference.

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Can you read? Povol and I are talking about when he was 27 or 28, not 37.

As I have also repeatedly pointed out to you, by your self defeating argument Rossi didn't actually have any significant opposition at the "prime" age of 25 given Max was 33 then and Sete 32. Mick Doohan also beat Max when Max was 26 to win his 5th title at the age of 33.

Even at this elite level these guys don't have exactly the same reflexes when their reflexes are at their peak anyway.

tps7c said:

ALMOST immeasurable, is not immeasurable, now is it? And when you are talking about a sport that is measured in hundredths of a second, every little bit makes a difference.

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Hundredths do matter, the reflex test i was alluding to were calculated in milliseconds and the difference was miniscule. If you really want to split hairs, the test showed all riders are past their "prime" before they ever reached the series as the fastest reflexes were the 7-14 age group.

ok, another link, with a different tale, this time is Kropotkin writing. the fourth paragraph is:



quote: "In this case, Elias was handed a set of ‘Saturday night specials’ destined for Dani Pedrosa, but which Pedrosa had elected not to use, and so were going spare. Elias liked the same kind of soft carcass tire that Pedrosa was being offered, and went on to exploit the advantage it offered."



Friday Summary at Qatar: The Myth of Fairness & Aleix Espargaro's One-Man Revolution - Asphalt & Rubber

gekko1ro said:

ok, another link, with a different tale, this time is Kropotkin writing. the fourth paragraph is:



quote: "In this case, Elias was handed a set of ‘Saturday night specials’ destined for Dani Pedrosa, but which Pedrosa had elected not to use, and so were going spare. Elias liked the same kind of soft carcass tire that Pedrosa was being offered, and went on to exploit the advantage it offered."



Friday Summary at Qatar: The Myth of Fairness & Aleix Espargaro's One-Man Revolution - Asphalt & Rubber

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Ok, so if multiple riders were being tailored to, such as Dani, then it's clear they weren't just tailoring these tires to one man. Even though he is the greatest man to ever walk the planet.

JPSLotus said:

Just some food for thought...John McGuinness set the fastest lap around the Isle of Man Circuit last year at the age of 43 and he just turned 44 on April 16th.

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JPS you are nothing but a fake supervillain.

michaelm said:

I am a Luddite who doesn't do links.

I did find Tweets/a Twitter exchange of some interest linked to on a site.
"The old Michelin Race day Specials".
motobanzai.com.myfreeforum.org.archive

Tweet from Dennis Noyes
This tyre delivery resulted after one was rejected by another rider in Toni Elias' historic and significant victory
7:16 am 10 Dec 2013 from Borrego Springs

Sir Guy of Guisborne
@DennisNoyes@TobyMoody
The rejector was Dani Pedrosa

Dennis Noyes
@G.H Anderson @TobyMoody
Yes, he was

Click to expand...

My dear friend, you are certainly not a Luddite, that nickname goes to Arrabi. (An inside joke amongst his texting friends.)

Thanks for finding that exchange. I knew it was out there, and not just in tweets. I'm sure the underlying meaning will be lost for my buddy Migs.

Somewhere in a post long long ago I quoted Randy Mamola's Alpinestars blog (link now apparently defunct) on the subject. Unlike Dennis Noyes' cryptic tweet, Mamola left nothing for the imagination.

In the words of Migs, this 'proves' that tires supposedly tailored for Pedrosa were not actually tailored for Pedrosa!

According to the article Migs cites which according to him "proved" SNS were provided to others not just Rossi, which we already knew. This proves that the SNS were not in fact tailored to others.

michaelm said:

We might stop doing it when you guys stop dismissing the achievements of other riders, particularly their championships, which certainly has been going on for more than a decade now, culminating in extreme fashion last year including outrageous unsubstantiated claims by Rossi himself which continued through the off season.

I personally don't think the SNS tyres were much if at all an advantage over the other top, and hence also SNS equipped, Michelin riders, and have never seen a complaint about them from his main rivals in that era, being Biaggi, Gibernau and Hayden. I think it is indisputable those tyres existed, that only riders from the top teams got them, that Rossi had considerable input into their formulation by the testimony of his own team-mate, that they didn't suit Colin Edwards himself, and that they didn't suit Dani Pedrosa on one occasion. Edwards was a superbike rider however, Biaggi, Gibernau and Rossi from a 250 background.

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I don't think I ever dismissed any other riders achievements, they're all good, I just don't like what I'm seeing on this forum in respect to VR, he has earned all his championships by being the best rider of the years when he won, not because of SNS etc.

Aw Mang said:

Lol do you even try to understand what you read before you open your mouth? The point is the tire was cooked to Rossi formula and that should give him the advantage over other riders. Pedrosa couldn't use Rossi tires but Toni Elias got his hands on the Rossi tires at Estoril and we know what happened.

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I understand what I read, don't need to try too hard bud !

Daniboy said:

I don't think I ever dismissed any other riders achievements, they're all good, I just don't like what I'm seeing on this forum in respect to VR, he has earned all his championships by being the best rider of the years when he won, not because of SNS etc.

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Daniboy said:

I understand what I read, don't need to try too hard bud !

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While you're selectively reading, did you get the part where Dennis Noyes and Toby Moody, both exceptionally respected MotoGP journalist, mention that Pedrosa discarded SNS tires, tires that are supposedly tailored for him? How does that logic exactly work, have you thought about this? SNS are "tailored" tires, according to Michelin. You "read" that right? After all, you're pigging backing on Mig's indication of "proof" they exited for other riders, therefore, your "reading" must lead you to the logical assumption that Rossi wasn't the only one that enjoyed "tailored for him" tires. HOWEVER, you just read an account by respected journalist recounting that Pedrosa rejected tires supposedly tailored for him? Reading of words is one thing, discerning their meaning 'poves' to be quite a different challenge.

You may continue to think Rossi "won" his titles without a distinct advantage in regards to "tailored" tires, but you'd be naive and wrong to think so. In that very article you cite along with Migs, Michelin mentioned: "Riding style has a lot of effect on tire choice, much more so than in car racing." In other words, tires are of paramount importance, one could say it decides race winners and losers. Michelin also talks in that article as if there was a realistic tire war, patting itself on the back for their success, yet they were in realistic terms a defacto single tire suppliers without the restriction of providing a 'spec tire'. Do you understand the significance?

tps7c said:

Ok, so if multiple riders were being tailored to, such as Dani, then it's clear they weren't just tailoring these tires to one man. Even though he is the greatest man to ever walk the planet.

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This is hilarious! You, like Migs and Daniboy have missed the entire SIGNIFICANCE of WHY Pedros REJECTED THE 'TAILORED' TIRES!

Perhaps your understanding of it is flawed, or just plain wrong. The tyres were requested by other riders, not just Rossi , so they had just as much chance of an advantage as he had! If you want to provide some indisputable proof such as timesheets from Friday Saturday Sunday for the various races in question, be my guest.

Jumkie said:

This is hilarious! You, like Migs and Daniboy have missed the entire SIGNIFICANCE of WHY Pedros REJECTED THE 'TAILORED' TIRES!

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Because he didn't like them? So I'm suggesting that just because they tailored them towards Dani, doesn't necessarily mean that they "nailed" it. It also doesn't mean that because they didn't work for Dani that they were based on a design for Rossi.

Daniboy said:

Perhaps your understanding of it is flawed, or just plain wrong. The tyres were requested by other riders, not just Rossi , so they had just as much chance of an advantage as he had! If you want to provide some indisputable proof such as timesheets from Friday Saturday Sunday for the various races in question, be my guest.

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tps7c said:

Because he didn't like them? So I'm suggesting that just because they tailored them towards Dani, doesn't necessarily mean that they "nailed" it. It also doesn't mean that because they didn't work for Dani that they were based on a design for Rossi.

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gekko1ro said:

ok, another link, with a different tale, this time is Kropotkin writing. the fourth paragraph is:
quote: "In this case, Elias was handed a set of ‘Saturday night specials’ destined for Dani Pedrosa, but which Pedrosa had elected not to use, and so were going spare. Elias liked the same kind of soft carcass tire that Pedrosa was being offered, and went on to exploit the advantage it offered."

Friday Summary at Qatar: The Myth of Fairness & Aleix Espargaro's One-Man Revolution - Asphalt & Rubber

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This was the quote I was looking for, thanks, great find. A couple of things I'd like to highlight:

#1: Pedrosa rejected tires supposedly 'tailored for HIM". This flys in the face of those arguing that other riders got tailor made tires with them in mind. Migs said based on the Michelin statement (as if they were going to admit to providing unfair advantages) that it proved others got tires tailored to them. YET, Pedrosa rejected these tires and elected to use....wait for it, tires that were NOT tailored for him! Logical? Why would he do that? Maybe because the tires were tailored, yes, but SUITED someone else? That would certainly make sense.

#2: Those tires were NOT destined for TONI ELIAS, and they were NOT 'TAILORED" for TONI ELIAS. This is a matter of FACT. Not conspiracy or conjecture. However here is another FACT: Toni Elias won the race on these exact tires! Tires that otherwise were NOT destined for Toni Elias, and quite possibly decided the 2006 World Championship! (Stop, if you are reading this, and consider this last statement.) It is quite reasonable and probable that Toni Elias would not have won the Estoril race, and Valentino Rossi would have been a further 5 points up going into Valencia, 5 points was in fact the margin that decided the 2006 championship!

#3: Notice that these 'tailored' "Saturday Night Specials" were described as going "spare". That means they were not going to be used. A small twist of fait, they ended up on Toni Elias' wheels. Multiple this times several years of having 'tailor" made tires for Valentino Rossi. Is there still any doubt in a person capable of reading these word, with the minimal capacity to reason, that this did not translate into a real advantage that decided championships?

Well there's obviously no doubt in your mind, but if it was a prosecution case it would be thrown out of court as convictions are NOT made on hearsay...

Daniboy said:

Well there's obviously no doubt in your mind, but if it was a prosecution case it would be thrown out of court as convictions are NOT made on hearsay...

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Convictions are made on far less! You're obviously not familiar with the "justice" system.

We are both convinced for are position, that is clear. However, you stated you "read" and concluded there is no evidence for Rossi's advantages. Yet, you are "reading" accounts by three journalists who reported the tires Toni Elias used to win his only unlikely race, did so on tires not made for him. This is a fact. This means that despite you "reading" the words, you seem to be missing the profound meaning which is as follows: Rossi’s would-be rivals were often eliminated the day before the race on account of not getting the preferred tire.

Do you think Toni Elias would have won that fateful race in Estoril 2006 had Pedrosa's SNS stayed in the garage? I don't. Again, that means untold occasions that would-be race contenders were eliminate before they even lined up on the grid! How are you missing this?

My opinion is that Toni Elias's win on 'special' tyres proves that they worked for riders other than your favourite 'hate' target, so again, no point proven...