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Where was Rossi going to go for 2008 if he quit Yamaha? He was persona non grata at Honda. Ducati wasn't about to .... anything up with Stoner winning the title. He never would have settled for Suzuki or Kawasaki. A threat to quit Yamaha was very much a threat to quit MotoGP at that time.
Sure, but he was at a stage in his career when he could not unreasonably have been considering retirement. I recall him saying in 2008 that he just wanted to beat Stoner 2 out of 3, and have a long time theory that he was going to retire possibly at the end of 2010, hence Yamaha seeing Lorenzo as their future, but whether because of the tax problems, not wanting to go out on an injury affected/losing season, realising F1 and WRC weren't really a goer, or just because he couldn't give up the limelight, changed his mind.

What the thread does prove, particularly through your efforts, is that pretty well everything that has been disputed about the race day special tyres has an evidential foundation despite claims to the contrary, and I have no doubt the Randy Mamola stuff was out there somewhere at some stage as well.
 
Great finds JPS, thanks. They were interesting reading.

Says the guy who enjoyed destroying the field so completely in 2002.

Ironic isn't it?

When you look at all of that, it's pretty damning evidence about Rossi's hold over MotoGP at a particularly critical juncture.

Many people laughed at the notion Rossi holds considerable sway over GP, but the Bridgestone chief knew exactly what kind of hold Rossi had over GP. That's to say nothing of the unprecedented decision to allow Rossi to run Bridgestones while his teammate had to run Michelin tires. There has never been another instance of such a thing happening in any top tier race series where one teammate was running one tire manufacturer, and the other had a different one.

I posted a link recently from the Bridgestone boss at the time saying he feared that Rossi in particular, and Pedrosa, were using their influence to get Bridgestones.

It says he threatened to quit Yamaha at the end of the next year, which was probably the end of the contract. The "smoking gun" that I meant was VR threatening Carmelo with quitting GP bike racing, and Carmelo forcing Bridgestone to supply him, which was rumoured at the time, and which I am certainly not dismissing.

Where was Rossi going to go for 2008 if he quit Yamaha? He was persona non grata at Honda. Ducati wasn't about to .... anything up with Stoner winning the title. He never would have settled for Suzuki or Kawasaki. A threat to quit Yamaha was very much a threat to quit MotoGP at that time.

JPS beat me to it.
 
Doesn't the fact that the championship win the following two seasons prove that the rider in question was right to demand tyres that would improve his chances of winning? I have no problem with that at all. Michelin were awful at the time and yeah, if you're in a job and can't do it properly because of useless equipment then why bother?
 
That's a fair statement to make, but similarly why were the tyres in both 2008 AND 2012, when Casey Stoner was the reigning world champion changed in such a way that hindered him and impeded his chances of winning, to arguably help a rider who wasn't winning (and hadn't even won a race in 18 months), then Stoner was called a whiner?

That's the problem. As you say, Rossi had the right to complain about his tyres when they were hindering him. But when another rider does it, he's a whiner. That's the double standard that I have no time for.
 
I wouldn't call any of them a whiner , it's natural to ask for equipment to work for you, I really think the 'fits all'control tyres need dumping and then develop tyres for each bike type, four factories four tyre ranges, better competition.
 
Sure, but he was at a stage in his career when he could not unreasonably have been considering retirement. I recall him saying in 2008 that he just wanted to beat Stoner 2 out of 3, and have a long time theory that he was going to retire possibly at the end of 2010, hence Yamaha seeing Lorenzo as their future, but whether because of the tax problems, not wanting to go out on an injury affected/losing season, realising F1 and WRC weren't really a goer, or just because he couldn't give up the limelight, changed his mind.

What the thread does prove, particularly through your efforts, is that pretty well everything that has been disputed about the race day special tyres has an evidential foundation despite claims to the contrary, and I have no doubt the Randy Mamola stuff was out there somewhere at some stage as well.

I think my point more is that he was reported by MCN as threatening to quit Yamaha over the tire situation, and whether he was considering retirement or not, is irrelevant to that point. He was threatening to quit because for the first time in his career, he found himself at an equipment disadvantage that was earned fair and square. Instead of taking it in stride, putting his mouth where his money was, and hunkering down to work with Michelin to get the best out of the tire, he threatened to quit. In fact, it all flew in the face of his public statements of looking to improve the Michelin tires for 2008. Ezpeleta bailed Rossi out of what would have likely been another anemic performance in 2008 by taking the unprecedented move of securing a tire supply for Rossi alone, and not Lorenzo....all out of Rossi's whining and threats. Bridgestone said Rossi held too much sway over the sport. Sad nothing has changed since then.
 
Doesn't the fact that the championship win the following two seasons prove that the rider in question was right to demand tyres that would improve his chances of winning? I have no problem with that at all. Michelin were awful at the time and yeah, if you're in a job and can't do it properly because of useless equipment then why bother?

His teammate was forced to use Michelins. The deal was only for Rossi.

You're missing how unprecedented a move like this was, and that there is no precedent for it ever happening.

Yamaha wanted to stay with Michelin for 2008.

Rossi directly contravened his team in private which amounts to insubordination. In the real world, you could be fired for that.

I wouldn't take the title win as proof that he was "right" to demand being supplied with the Bridgestones since it never would have happened the other way around: if Michelin was superior in 2007 and other riders demanded having them, they would have been told to pound dirt. Michelin got lazy in 2007, and did not do the necessary work since they didn't think Bridgestone could actually catch or surpass their tire. In addition, Bridgestone said they did not have the capacity to supply another rider/team, and did not want to do that. Their desires didn't actually matter though.
 
He was their best worker at the time and it would be a mistake to fire him, especially as it all came up rosy in the end.
 
Another thing that doesn't ring true with me is Bridgestone saying they didn't have capacity shortly before becoming sole tyre supplier.
 
They said they didn't have the capacity in mid to late 2007. They only became the sole supplier over a year later.
 
So the end always justify the means, no matter how one achieves it?

As long as nobody gets hurt and it's within the rules yes, it's a cutthroat world from every aspect, most successful people have a ruthless streak.
 
They said they didn't have the capacity in mid to late 2007. They only became the sole supplier over a year later.

Both Michelin and Bridgestone wanted a continuing tyre war, within parameters which didn't send them broke, rather than to be the sole supplier of a control tyre.
 
As long as nobody gets hurt and it's within the rules yes, it's a cutthroat world from every aspect, most successful people have a ruthless streak.

So with all due respect, why do you take such issue to Marc Marquez' suposed tactice from PI and Sepang last year?

I don't want to flog this dead horse again but nobody got hurt and he broke no rule, and by your own admission he is successful and therefore has a ruthless streak. So why was he villified?
 
So with all due respect, why do you take such issue to Marc Marquez' suposed tactice from PI and Sepang last year?

I don't want to flog this dead horse again but nobody got hurt and he broke no rule, and by your own admission he is successful and therefore has a ruthless streak. So why was he villified?

It was the continuing vilification of Rossi that I took and take exception to, what happened in PI was a great race, what happened in Sepang was toys out of the cot childishness on both counts , but it's over now and should be consigned to history.
 
As long as nobody gets hurt and it's within the rules yes, it's a cutthroat world from every aspect, most successful people have a ruthless streak.

So if I write a rule or law that is unethical, and use that to the detriment of others, this is all justifiable so long as there is no perceived harm caused to the victim of my actions?

We're back to the Jim Crow thing where laws were written specifically to exclude black people from participating in society, and helped to enforce segregation of white and black people well into 1960s America. If you were to ask any supporter of Jim Crow at that time period, they'd tell you that the blacks weren't being hurt as they still had schools, bathrooms, the ability to ride a bus, etc. True that they may not have always been physically hurt, but the emotional/mental hurt from such experiences is quite real as it relates to sense of self-worth...or rather the extinguishing of self-worth due to being treated as lesser than human.

The brokered deal between Ezpeleta and Bridgestone to allow Rossi to participate in the 2008 season with Bridgestone while the other factory Yamaha had to use Michelin, hurt Casey Stoner/Ducati significantly as Bridgestone now had to widen the operating parameters of their tire since the 2008 M1 was already designed and tested at that point. Widening the operating parameters of the tires to include a LONE factory M1 served to dilute the characteristics of the tire in an effort to appease Valentino Rossi. Think about it for a moment, Bridgestone could have dared to design the tires solely around the GP08, but Rossi would have thrown a ....-fit if he thought the tires were not suiting him, and would have been telling Carmelo that Bridgestone was trying to .... him over. Carmelo would have sided with him and told Bridgestone in no uncertain terms to fix the tires, and that would not be a reach since he was willing to broker an insane deal for Rossi's benefit.

Now if you are Casey Stoner and Ducati in 2008, imagine how devastating it had to be to see all of the hard work you've done with Bridgestone over the past several seasons be completely undermined because one rider with a direct pipeline to Ezpeleta was given better tires for free! Casey in particular was livid when Toni Elias would latch on to him to try and find the best lines around the circuit, and to draft him to better times. He was not happy because he said that he did all of his work on setup and lines himself, and then to have someone freeloading off of all of the time and work was complete ......... He's a guy who is very much a believer of doing the work yourself to improve rather than leach off of the work of others. Rossi was looking to leach off of the work of others by demanding he be granted use of the Bridgestone tires.

Sure it might have been in the rules that such a switch was okay, but it was neither ethical, nor was it free of causing injury to the party of Stoner/Ducati. By your own definition of what is acceptable, it was not acceptable because a party was in fact hurt by the entire incident.
 

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