Joined Apr 2008
7K Posts | 3K+
Out of Nowhere
What about a prehistoric 727? or a late 1950's 707 138? - lacking in sophisticated modern technology. Genuinely interested here.
What about a prehistoric 727? or a late 1950's 707 138? - lacking in sophisticated modern technology. Genuinely interested here.
Good question. I'll add to it. Whats your opinion of Boeing vs Airbus vs Embraer.
Also how difficult a feat was it to fly into the World Trade Towers and the Pentagon with no previous flying experience?
Joined Apr 2008
7K Posts | 3K+
Out of Nowhere
Would be measurably harder but doable. Both those aircraft require a 3rd pilot. Interestingly, Boeing for better or worse has maintained a relatively straight development path (that stopped at the 787) leaving a bizarre number of familiar components on the flight deck. Operating philosophy is strangely in line with the predecessors but the biggest obstacle would be the lack of sophistication in the powerplant management and flight management systems. I used to fly the 737-300 Classic which was quite similar to the older Boeing variants...I hated it! It was like stepping back in time.
Boeing has done this purposely. By maintaining cockpit/operating philosophies so uniformly throughout the years, they've managed to persuade regulating agencies around the world to allow fairly generous "common type" designations reducing training costs and allowing pilots to simultaneously operate fleet variants. Example, when I was flying the 757/767 pilots operated the 757-200, 757-300, 767-200 and 767-400 as a single fleet despite the considerable differences between them. The 767-400 has a 777 flight deck but the way you "fly the jet" is remarkably similar.
Airbus is an entirely different animal. I'd be really lost up there. Nothing about it is familiar to me or any Boeing only guy. They went in an entirely different direction philosophically.
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Joined Apr 2008
7K Posts | 3K+
Out of Nowhere
Fascinating as ever...genuinely, thank you.
I was aware that the Airbus paradigm was radically different to Boeing - and also that older cockpits so to speak, required a flight engineer to manage such things as hydraulics, fuel and electrical systems. But what of the McDonnell Douglas aircraft? Did the controls of a DC8 markedly differ to a 707?
Airbus is like learning another language and an entirely new set of social customs at once. It's an undertaking but there are things I admire about the airframe. I have about 5000 hours in the Embraer 145. I enjoyed it. I think Embraer is a great company. Build quality isn't what you'd find on Airbus or Boeing equipment but they're competent and they've carved out a niche market. They don't manufacture the avionics suite. Avionics manufacturers (Collins, Smith, Honeywell, etc) work with the manufacturer to design industry standard philosophies that work in tandem with the design goals of the airframe. That makes them very similar to what you'd find on other flight decks (except EMB has that goofy style control column borrowed from the Brits).
9-11 had perfect weather. VFR everywhere making their task much easier. That being said, still not easy to pull off. Taking an airplane in cruise and flying it somewhere else doesn't require the more difficult tasks of energy management and configuration changes but does require a familiarity with basic navigation.
I've had minimally trained rookie pilots in the simulator with me (family and friends) and while we don't do "for fun" 9-11 runs, I'm certain most of them could hit a 1200ft tall building in VFR conditions if necessary.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Short answer: ZX10 in its current state, yes. PanigaleR in its current state, yes. RSV4 in its current state, no.
We are simply speculating, right? So here is the extended version of my answer:
Good questions Migs. As a Rossi fan, I think you can appreciate the effect it might have on a rider who has been cruising around on inferior machinery. Rossi, the greatest of all time, wasn't able to win straight away when Carmelo cleared the path for his return to the factory M1, which entitles the rider to a 1 in 4 championship contending machine. Consider that he was only gone from the M1 for 2 years. Let's shelve VR's performance on the Ducati (which was a machine that had won races and scored podiums the previous year) as you are probably well aware, Heisman, Gaz, Michaelm, JPLotus, AntG, Kesh and others completely rehashed that episode, no need for us to repeat here. But consider that Rossi's performance was dismal on his return to a machine (M1) that was an absolute contender in 2013.
In GP, as opposed to WSBK, the parity picture is fairly straight forward, the 2 factory Yamahas and Hondas are the championship machines, if you are on one of those, you got a 1:4 chance of winning the title, period. The odds get better when 1 of those 4 riders has problems, as you see today, its basically a 1:2 deal, not dissimilar to what happened in 2013 when both Lorenzo and Pedrosa broke their clavicles, at which point you would have thought VR would have come in a comfortable runner-up, which did not happen. To support the idea that the M1 was a title contending machine, Lorenzo came within 5 points of winning on it in 2013, the same bike Valentino (the standard of awesome) simultaneously rode. Valentino Rossi, again the greatest of all time, wasn't able to win the title in 2014 either, while of course riding on a title contending bike with the odds being 1:4. I'm reminding you of these facts to build a case that even you could appreciate the difficulty an excellent rider such as Nicky might experience to win a title straight away in WSBK; if even the absolute standard of greatness (VR) has experienced difficulty, which let's be honest, you are asking in such a way to present your peculiar opinion of Nicky, which I'm ok with, but I'm just using your guy as a parallel, you still with me?
The parity picture is far less clear in WSBK, unlike GP, because it ebbs and flows with less predictability. From Ducati to Honda, to Suzuki to Kawasaki to Aprillia and even BMW at one point trade parity not just any given season, but even within/during the season. Not just the factory efforts, but so to the satellites/privateer teams as you may recall with Athea Ducati, dominating over Xerox Ducati with Checa, and Ten Kate with Hannspree verses Ten Kate with Pata were far different animals as opposed to the Castro Honda days.
So, I do think Nicky could win a title in WSBK, but that would be assuming a healthy Nicky on a contending machine. If not on the first year aboard a ZX-10 (as it sits currently at the top of the parity table), then certainly in a couple of years getting to grips with a RSV4 or PanigaleR. Notwithstanding Arrabi's smug grin as I'm imagining it, Jrea is probably the best rider at the moment, not just because he is on the best bike, but in reference to his performance on the Pata CBR1K. I don't believe (yes I concede bias opinion) that Chaz, Sykes, nor Haslam are better talented riders than Nicky Hayden. Think in your minds eye, would these fellas fair any better on the RCV-RS than Nicky is doing now? By the same token, I don't see Nicky fairing much worse than these blokes on their respective machines after a year in WSBK. Again, lots of factors to consider, confidence, experience, health, familiarity, etc. Just so you know, I consider Haslam to be a top rider, and he's proved it despite being beat by Melandri and JRead while on same machinery, but you see him there today on a decent RSV4 contending for podiums and wins. Do you think he is a better rider than Hayden? How about Chaz or Sykes? I just don't see it Migs.
Again, all just speculation. But I'll finish by saying this, Nicky never said publicly that he would even consider WSBK up until a few years ago. So his heart is in GP, even on a .... machine. I asked him the this very question at a Ducati meet and greet, and it was the first time I had ever heard him be open to a SBK stint. At this point as LeviG said, it might be too late. The damage has already been done to body, confidence, prestige, marketability, age, etc.
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Joined Oct 2008
6K Posts | 5K+
In Cider
Good post Jum, however I will throw one spanner into the works just for debate, and that spanner is: Eugene Laverty.
I'm not fussed about Laverty either way, but he was WSBK runner up in 2013 on the Aprilia before he was shuffled out to make way for Melandri, and this year it doesn't seem like Nicky is blowing him away on similar equipment.
That said, I'd LOVE for Hayden to go and win a WSBK title.
I'm not fussed about Laverty either way, but he was WSBK runner up in 2013 on the Aprilia before he was shuffled out to make way for Melandri, and this year it doesn't seem like Nicky is blowing him away on similar equipment.
That said, I'd LOVE for Hayden to go and win a WSBK title.
Joined Jun 2007
3K Posts | 309+
UK
So the short short version.....unless Nicky gets the best of best he cant or wont win the WSBK title in his maiden year......and the only way he can win the title is by having a couple years of development the (insert factory name here) bike .... however that development wouldn't come from Nicky but from the preceding riders on that same (insert factory name here) bike....
I tend to agree with LeviG as well.....it is too late for Nicky.....and i will add that i hope Nicky is smart enough to see it too...again i expect there will be an announcement by him at Indy about his future ....
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Basically yes, you've summarized my thoughts. Its just how racing works I guess, only the riders on top machines seem to win titles. You simply need a contending bike, then do the business on it. Look at 2006, Nicky wasn't the only one on a race winning motorcycle (count the race winners), but he had ultra consistency on it. Always on or near the podium for much of the season which would have included Estriol as well. You can't win titles on winning machines if you crash or have mechanicals on them. Look at Marquez today, absolutely on a title contending bike. One little supposed machine hiccup and he crashed out of 3 rounds.
But again as I said, it's probably too late for Nicky. Though Biaggi and Checa give me hope that even a relic and a 'mediocre' GP transplant can win a Wsbk title if the conditions are right.
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Yes, it's too late for Nicky to win the SBK title. It's not too late for Nicky to cruise around on track making a comfortable 7 figure salary. I'd race on a Big Wheel if they'd pay me his salary. Nicky should ride motorcycles for money until there's nobody willing to pay him to do so.
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Uhm...I think he's pretty much doing that now. Though in his defense he probably went into this project believing the RCV he would get would be .03 off the pace. Has ever a rider negotiated additional incentives in a contract if the bike delivered is a pile of ....?
Good post jum but I baffled as to why you would bother to reply to migsISIS who only is trying to cram in "Nicky sucks" to every one of his posts.
Theres one factor I havnt heard anyone mention. The liter bike platform is on life support. The big 3 are flooding the market with Sportbikes under 500cc Sales of liter bikes have plummeted. They are not going to continue developing them in this current market. We may be seeing the last of SBK racing.
Joined Jun 2007
3K Posts | 309+
UK
Really? if that the case now then it would the situation that much more sad and pathetic.....
Nicky surely doesn't need the money (at least i hope he doesn't at this point in his career)....and if his motivation is only money then he is just taking up room in racing that could any other American or other nationality's youngster shot at a ride....
Take KRJR as an example....why did he stop racing? The 2007 Team KR big was rubbish, so he stopped racing part way through the season cause KRJR loved and was motivated to race and win....and not be some back marker riding to pick up a pay check until he was too old to ride....
Sadly the former champion left GPs with no fanfare and not to really to be seen or heard from again really....
I would think and hope that Nicky makes the decision to keep racing or not beyond this year on something more significant than money....
Wouldn't you agree?
Joined Oct 2006
25K Posts | 4K+
Your Mom's House
Are the riders 12-22 riding for money because they're back markers? I suspect not. Migs, have you ever listened to Nicky's interviews and sound bites, does he sound like a guy happy about finishing so low in the order? Just because a few fans surmise he may simply be doing this for the money doesn't have the slightest relevance for his true motives.
Do you have a job Migs? What if your employer said, that skill that you have been developing on your own dime since 3, well you can work for me for 15 or so years of your rest if your life? Then...after that you're on your own. Oh and if you happen to die or get a life threatening injury thats on you. Wouldn't money be part of the incentive to continue? Not to mention your employer said he would get you a competitive machines and delivered for most of Nickys years a pile of .... (see the RCV with a supposed slightest of problems cost the current Greatest of all Time a title this year, not to mention VR's Ducati lesson). What should Nicky do? Say hey WTF, im prepared to give u my life but you delivered a piece of ?! Yeah yeah, you can get all lofty about "integrity" and "fairness" , if you want to dig up these themes, let's start with the League, an entity that supposed to be impartial, negotiating a return for Rossi to factory Yamaha (as per Kropo). ASK yourself, what would have Rossi's results be on a 2013, 14,15 Ducati?
Do you have a job Migs? What if your employer said, that skill that you have been developing on your own dime since 3, well you can work for me for 15 or so years of your rest if your life? Then...after that you're on your own. Oh and if you happen to die or get a life threatening injury thats on you. Wouldn't money be part of the incentive to continue? Not to mention your employer said he would get you a competitive machines and delivered for most of Nickys years a pile of .... (see the RCV with a supposed slightest of problems cost the current Greatest of all Time a title this year, not to mention VR's Ducati lesson). What should Nicky do? Say hey WTF, im prepared to give u my life but you delivered a piece of ?! Yeah yeah, you can get all lofty about "integrity" and "fairness" , if you want to dig up these themes, let's start with the League, an entity that supposed to be impartial, negotiating a return for Rossi to factory Yamaha (as per Kropo). ASK yourself, what would have Rossi's results be on a 2013, 14,15 Ducati?
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Jumkie. You need to put it in terms Migs would understand.
Do you have a job Migs? What if your boss Osama Bin Laden said, that skill of killing, maiming and cutting off American heads that you have been developing on your own dime since 3, well you can kill for me for 15 or so years of your rest if your life? Then...after that you're on your own. Oh and if you happen to die in battle against infidels or get a life threatening injury while fabricating an IED,thats on you. Wouldn't money be part of the incentive to continue? Not to mention Osama said he would get you a RPG's and delivered for most of your years ...... made in China AK47's. What should You do? Say hey WTF, im prepared to give Allah my life but you delivered pos weaponry. Yeah yeah, you can get all lofty about sharia law and caliphate , if you want to dig up these themes, let's start with Saudi Arabia, an society that supposed to be impartial, negotiating a return for Muhammed to the west (as per Busho). ASK yourself, what would have Your results be, if you were in ISIS Instead of Al Queada
Do you have a job Migs? What if your boss Osama Bin Laden said, that skill of killing, maiming and cutting off American heads that you have been developing on your own dime since 3, well you can kill for me for 15 or so years of your rest if your life? Then...after that you're on your own. Oh and if you happen to die in battle against infidels or get a life threatening injury while fabricating an IED,thats on you. Wouldn't money be part of the incentive to continue? Not to mention Osama said he would get you a RPG's and delivered for most of your years ...... made in China AK47's. What should You do? Say hey WTF, im prepared to give Allah my life but you delivered pos weaponry. Yeah yeah, you can get all lofty about sharia law and caliphate , if you want to dig up these themes, let's start with Saudi Arabia, an society that supposed to be impartial, negotiating a return for Muhammed to the west (as per Busho). ASK yourself, what would have Your results be, if you were in ISIS Instead of Al Queada
Joined Apr 2008
7K Posts | 3K+
Out of Nowhere
Joined Aug 2007
11K Posts | 3K+
Pomona NY
This is not a rebuttal per se. Just opinion... but it's clear he doesn't need the money. In a sense - like Jum said it's a job, and if you look at statistics - you will find that retiring very frequently leads to depression and a general loss of meaning in life. There are even studies that point solidly to earlier onset of Alzhiemers in people who retire early. So there's that.
The other thing is, racing is all Nicky's ever known. He's not married and still relatively healthy and still lives and breathes the racing life. People in general have great difficulty with big changes in lifestyle. I've said this before... it's not going to be easy for him to walk away from the glamor and all his friends in the paddock after so many years - to go live in Tenn. or California or wherever. He probably has more friends that he sees on a daily basis in the paddock - then he knows in his whole hometown.
And it almost goes without saying, that even being "a backmarker" (riding bikes at over 200 MPH at the best tracks in the world) has to be more stimulating than sitting around on a ranch scratching yer bloodhound's head and staring out into the sunset.
I was only a mid-pack club racer at best and never gained heights of glory - but it was incredibly addictive and I never got bored. I raced against guys who were much younger, who had serious sponsorship (or rich parents) and knew I would never be a champion, but it didn't matter; I loved the sport. When I quit racing at age 36 - I went through real withdrawal and missed it so bad I couldn't watch a race for about five years. So I can totally relate that Nicky isn't ready to walk away from something he loves that much. Racing is who he is.
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