Hayden to WSBK (Again)?

Deal with work place discrimination, a dead end job and see where it lands you. Especially where making waves gets you put on the s**t list. Noone is breaking the Spanish "mafia's" grip in GPs, Hayden found that out first hand in 2007/2008. Hes better than most in GPs, but you will never know it, because talent is nothing compared to who is sponsoring you, and who the "press" want to win.


Just once I'd like to hear this from Nicky himself, but he's always too much the pro/company man. Wonder if he'll write an auto-bio when he retires?

AntG said:

According to a member of Hondas BSB team I spoke to at Oulton Park a couple of years ago HRC's top brass want to win Suzuka, Senior TT and MotoGP in that order, they don't really care for WSBK or any of the national series, they're happy if they win them but if they don't it's not a disaster.

Click to expand...

Nice one, ant.
Honda 2 tier strategy.
Road bike "relevancy" combined with top tier "dominance" <not working so well in 2015>
SBK??? doesn't fit very well.

Hayden is not going to win another championship, but that does not mean there is not a place for him on the grid. I think he is still marketable in the USA, and because of that I'm sure the people that write his checks would like to see him in the series that races the most in the USA.

Checa & Biaggi won titles in Wsbk, no reason why Hayden can't.

Jumkie said:

Checa & Biaggi won titles in Wsbk, no reason why Hayden can't.

Click to expand...

Checa hadn't suffered as many injuries
and Biaggi was closer to his top form (and suffering from fewer injuries) when he went to WSBK.

And there's the confidence factor too. Being stabbed in the back by Honda and used as a mule by Ducati can't have done much for his competitive spirit. Nothing controversial in saying that confidence is a big factor for any rider.

Would love to see Nicky go out on a high note; tho it'd be painful to see him on anything less than the best possible equipment and riding around mid-pack. Would love to see a fairytale ending but I don't think it's in the cards.

I agree, and there is also that Nicky luck factor, when .... can go wrong fir him it will, save his title of course, though it wasn't without its challenges. That Evo was not supposed to be a contender, but rather a holding pattern for the following year's formula.

Confidence is huge, and I've said as much for riders that got favored by their environment.

I don't agree however that Biaggi was at his peak, if that's what u meant. Biaggi had his best years in GP, and when he won his Sbk title I think he was past his prime. I think it's safe to say Biaggi benefited from Spies move to GP, otherwise I doubt Biaggi's name would have appeared on the trophy 2010.

Checa, I don't know how he did it in 2011, as I never rated him as a top 3 rider in GP, but then again it's difficult to judge given the all important parity in grand prix. Though I will offer a bit of my theory. Certainly the Honda & Aprilia both rode respectively was not a sloth machine. Especially Biaggi's. I saw Checa win twice at Miller Sports Park in Utah. Its a great spectators venue. I won't say I could perform a diagnosis of his machine from the view along the fence (Babelfish) but that Honda was lacking nothing as far as I could detect. I will also add, and people can correct me if I'm wrong, but the other manufacturers were still not on the upswing of their development cycle. The Kawasaki was still using Mitsubishi electronics, making short work of tires, BMW was at an early stage, then when they didnt win packed up and left their bikes in the hands of pseudo privateer teams. Ducati was still in the wilderness after their last hurrah for Nitro Nori that never quite worked out, and then circled all the wagons for the GP effort when some Italiano guey was signed.

Jumkie said:

I agree, and there is also that Nicky luck factor, when .... can go wrong fir him it will, save his title of course, though it wasn't without its challenges. That Evo was not supposed to be a contender, but rather a holding pattern for the following year's formula.

Confidence is huge, and I've said as much for riders that got favored by their environment.

I don't agree however that Biaggi was at his peak, if that's what u meant. Biaggi had his best years in GP, and when he won his Sbk title I think he was past his prime. I think it's safe to say Biaggi benefited from Spies move to GP, otherwise I doubt Biaggi's name would have appeared on the trophy 2010. Checa, I don't know how he did it, as I never rated him as a top 3 rider in GP, but then again it's difficult to judge given the all important parity in grand prix. Though I will offer a bit of my theory. Certainly the Honda & Aprilia both rode respectively was not a sloth machine. Especially Biaggi's. I saw Checa win twice at Miller Sports Park in Utah. Its a great spectators venue. I won't say I could perform a diagnosis of his machine from the view along the fence (Babelfish) but that Honda was lacking nothing as far as I could detect. I will also add, and people can correct me if I'm wrong, but the other manufacturers were still not on the upswing of their development cycle. The Kawasaki was still using Mitsubishi electronics, making short work of tires, BMW was at an early stage, then when they didnt win packed up and left their bikes in the hands of pseudo privateer teams. Ducati was still in the wilderness after their last hurrah for Nitro Nori that never quite worked out, and then circled all the wagons for the GP effort when some Italiano guey was signed.

Click to expand...

Didn't mean that Biaggi was as good as when he was battling it out against Rossi on the Honda. But still, he left MotoGP while he was relatively competitive and in very good health.

I was also surprised at Checa doing so well - but as you said his degree of talent could easily been overlooked during a period of relative mechanical parity. Not as good as Rossi - but no slacker.

Personally - I was really disappointed when BMW discontinued full support. Haslam and all the other riders put so much of their hearts in that team, that had so much potential. The Germans really punked out.

Certainly, and credit to Biaggi, there were multiple race winners and manufactures that year, of course I was rooting for Haslam, though as is usual for Suzuvki they stop development mid season. The Sterilgarda Yamaha was still a formidable machine, but let's be honest, Cal, who had a decent year, wasn't going to win the championship. Nori rode like a man who's spirit had been beaten out of him the previous year. While Checa did look pretty good on the Duc. While that year Jrea was developing his reputation as a crasher. Haha I can't remember off hand, but I don't remember Biaggi dropping too many points when he wasn't winning, it's those ....... DNFs that kill titles, and his rivals had plenty. That I do remember. Haslam, Checa, and of course Crutchlow and Jrea all had multiple DNFs.

Regarding Checa, his SBK title was dominant, and considering Ducati had passed of their machine over to a non-factory team, makes it more impressive, so it would be wrong of me to give the impression that I don’t think he was a very good rider. Though I will say, I never quite forgave him for shamelessly torpedoing Max Nuekrcher (.... if I know how to spell) at Valencia. Still remember it clearly, I had one of my .... fits on the forum I'm infamous for, poor Max was never the same.

Checa spent much of his good years on the YZR & M1 when VR was running the table with Honda, though Biaggi did extract more from the Yamaha. So as I said, .... knows. Somewhere in the catalog of all my posts I mentioned many years ago that Checa (and Barros) should have been credited more for sorting out the YamahaGP that Rossi rode in his maiden win for the manufacturer at Welkom. I know it was sensational for VR to jump the Honda ship and not skip a beat, but that bike had started to come good over the off season thanks in part to Checa and Barros.

Arrabbiata1 said:

To me Toseland's tenacity was demonstrated on the Ducati because that team under Tardozzi was so blatantly biased towards Laconi. I did respect him immensely after that huge crash in the opener at Qatar that almost broke his back failed to break his spirit.

Click to expand...

Spot the .... on.

Though if you believe Colin, he did step on his Tose when they were paired up in GP.

Arrabbiata1 said:

You wouldn't be so fond of Toseland if you had seen 'Crash' (as opposed to simply seeing him crash), and his new band are an abortion. Judging by his recent appearances as part of the BT Sport team, the guy has become a complete narcissist post retirement.

Click to expand...

Boy band? 'lol'


Ah ...., somewhere in the catalog of my fuzzy memory bank (as is standard of them at the track) there is a vision (albeit blurred) of me dancing like a crazy Mexican monkey rocking out to Crash--THE BAND covering some 80's song near the manufacturer's vendor tents by turn 5. Toesland was wearing a white shirt, you know, those Italian tailored shirts the nobs you see walking around the F1 paddock before a race wear with 4 buttons unlatched, prancing behind the keyboard, it was glorious. I looked upon him and marveled how can someone who has dedicated so much time perfecting his skills on a motorcycle play the piano so good while looking like the cover model of a Hollister Jeans store poster? As you are well aware, I'm a happy drunk, and everything at the track is simply FABULOUS.

Jumkie said:

Spot the .... on.

Though if you believe Colin, he did step on his Tose when they were paired up in GP.




Boy band? 'lol'


Ah ...., somewhere in the catalog of my fuzzy memory bank (as is standard of them at the track) there is a vision (albeit blurred) of me dancing like a crazy Mexican monkey rocking out to Crash--THE BAND covering some 80's song near the manufacturer's vendor tents by turn 5. Toesland was wearing a white shirt, you know, those Italian tailored shirts the nobs you see walking around the F1 paddock before a race wear with 4 buttons unlatched, prancing behind the keyboard, it was glorious. I looked upon him and marveled how can someone who has dedicated so much time perfecting his skills on a motorcycle play the piano so good while looking like the cover model of a Hollister Jeans store poster? As you are well aware, I'm a happy drunk, and everything at the track is simply FABULOUS.

Click to expand...

I can testify to that.

Arrabi, I remember stumbling to the side of the stage to get a better look at Toseland. And to better listen to the band. Come on man, a GP rider & Wsbk champ singing a Sting song at the track, you don't get much cooler than that. Just sayin.

Watch "James Toseland performs: MotoGP Podium" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/r02swkT-ZEk

Jumkie said:

Arrabi, I remember stumbling to the side of the stage to get a better look at Toseland. And to better listen to the band. Come on man, a GP rider & Wsbk champ singing a Sting song at the track, you don't get much cooler than that. Just sayin.

Watch "James Toseland performs: MotoGP Podium" on YouTube
https://youtu.be/r02swkT-ZEk

Click to expand...

Ahhh... but how would you feel if Sting came and got on MotoGP bike and made a lame attempt to ride around the track? Just sayin'.

I never warmed to Toseland even when he was winning in WSBK, I don't dislike him but I find him to be a complete dullard, probably a lovely bloke and from what many others have said he is but I could never bring myself to cheer for him.

Dr No said:

Nice one, ant.
Honda 2 tier strategy.
Road bike "relevancy" combined with top tier "dominance" <not working so well in 2015>
SBK??? doesn't fit very well.

Click to expand...

Well the thing is, just how popular is Superbike racing? I know we get massive crowds for BSB and the world championship rounds but I've watched many foreign races on TV and you can see massive grandstands empty whereas when the GP circus is in town those grandstands are full.

It certainly doesn't seem as popular as it was in the 90's from my perspective anyway.

So from reading the follow up posts....unless Nicky is offered a factory ride on the Kawasaki or Aprilia or the Ducati then you dont believe he can win the title in his maiden year in the WSBK series...and that before any more excuses are added in...such as not being used to Pirellis, 'new' tracks, and having re-learn to ride a Superbike, etc, etc......

At the same time, it seems some of you are saying a Honda, Suzuki or Yamaha ride (lets assume they are factory backed rides) aren't sufficient because someone else hasn't already done all the development to make those bikes into winners... it seems to me that if Nicky is a 'top' rider then development is his responsibility for 'inferior' machinery....
Or is Nicky simply not capable of developing a bike to win the the WSBK title?

Let me ask a different question....if Nicky gets the Ducati, Aprilia or a Kawasaki top flight ride in his maiden year in WSBK will he win the title, yes or no?

I'd take a punt and say the Kawasaki yes, the Aprilia possibly (only because it's similar to a GP bike) and the Ducati unlikely.

AntG said:

Well the thing is, just how popular is Superbike racing? I know we get massive crowds for BSB and the world championship rounds but I've watched many foreign races on TV and you can see massive grandstands empty whereas when the GP circus is in town those grandstands are full.

It certainly doesn't seem as popular as it was in the 90's from my perspective anyway.

Click to expand...

It is difficult to find the figures, but I recall the 90s, where GP Practice weekends would get a larger audience than an SBK rounds....(In Spain...do you reckon that may've coloured Carmelo's business views..ahem)

Superbikes are proddy racing. When the proddies don't sell, why pump money into them?

Dr No said:

It is difficult to find the figures, but I recall the 90s, where GP Practice weekends would get a larger audience than an SBK rounds....(In Spain...do you reckon that may've coloured Carmelo's business views..ahem)

Superbikes are proddy racing. When the proddies don't sell, why pump money into them?

Click to expand...

The relative popularity of both series varied geographically. In Spain WSBk was nowhere on the map, although the migration of the more conspicuous Spanish refugees from GP such as Checa, Rolfo and Nieto certainly attracted some attention. Conversely, most Spanish bike racing fans hadn't a clue who Ruben Xaus was when he made the jump to GP.

Thoughout the 90s WSB was massive in the UK, The Netherlands and Germany in particular and to a certain extent France. Here in the UK, it largely owed to the Foggy Factor and comprehensive Sky coverage...in fact for several years WSB Brands was the biggest sporting event in the country when measured by attendance if not renown. The fall of Fogarty, the rise of Rossi and the re-branded MotoGP completely eclipsed the series which by 2003 had seen all its best riders defect to GP and with the desertion of the Japanese factories due to the ridiculous rule book written in favour of the twins had become little more than the Ducati Cup. Although these rules were repealed it took a while to regain momentum and although the racing has been magnificent, it has struggled to recapture the glory years of the mid to late nineties and in the UK Hodgson, Toseland and Sykes evidently lacked the kudos of King Carl.

MigsAngel said:

So from reading the follow up posts....unless Nicky is offered a factory ride on the Kawasaki or Aprilia or the Ducati then you dont believe he can win the title in his maiden year in the WSBK series...and that before any more excuses are added in...such as not being used to Pirellis, 'new' tracks, and having re-learn to ride a Superbike, etc, etc......

At the same time, it seems some of you are saying a Honda, Suzuki or Yamaha ride (lets assume they are factory backed rides) aren't sufficient because someone else hasn't already done all the development to make those bikes into winners... it seems to me that if Nicky is a 'top' rider then development is his responsibility for 'inferior' machinery....
Or is Nicky simply not capable of developing a bike to win the the WSBK title?

Let me ask a different question....if Nicky gets the Ducati, Aprilia or a Kawasaki top flight ride in his maiden year in WSBK will he win the title, yes or no?

Click to expand...

If Rossi jumped on Davide's bike next SBK round would he beat Chaz in Race 1? If he took VDM's bike would he podium? Could he beat Jonny on the other Kawi? I doubt it. There is a learning curve, it's well documented. Riders generally struggle going in either direction and we've seen this a number of times. Riding is a physical skill, time would be required to adapt.

Additionally, there are parity issues in SBK just like there is in GP. Some bikes are clearly better than others by a considerable margin.

I've flown the Boeing 737,757 and 767. Never the 777. I'm 100% confident I could get it around the patch without bending it but it wouldn't be graceful. Physical adaptation is what it is. Time is required to adjust.

I don't think Nicky has claim to a top SBK ride at this point but no matter the scenario, I don't think he'd win straight away. I don't think anyone from GP would show up and dominate. I'm on record saying that Nicky is past his prime and should have made this move 3 years ago.