Guareschi: I've never seen a talent like Casey

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Oniker @ Mar 7 2010, 10:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Are we talking about motorcycle racers, musicians, fashion or ....'s??

....'s of course Oniker - get with the program!


Both Rossi & Stoner would both enjoy setting up the bike better than the last time they rode it IMO.
Time is a big factor in setting these things up, and obviously Rossi/Burgess have had more experience than the Ducati equivalent, but the time Stoner is most "animated" is when he comes in after 1 lap because the setting is wrong. Also I don't know why but Ducati never really seem to get the qualifying timing right - Stoner always seems to be 1 minute out of time to be able to put another tyre in to better his position - he's usually quite animated then also

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Mar 7 2010, 11:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think that's a big part of it, but I think they are just very different people. I'm not sure they can change at this point.

They're both virtuosos so imagine they are playing violins. Yamaha builds a violin for Rossi, Ducati builds a violin for Stoner. Before they even touch the violins, their approaches are fundamentally different. Rossi sees himself as part of the creative process. He left Honda b/c they didn't listen to him. Stoner just wants to reach the next level. He wants the problem-solving/creative processes to go away.

Just look at the way they dress. Stoner..........zzzzzzzzzzzzzz (not knocking him). Rossi..............fluorescent yellow leathers (or yellow leg) with a helmet that always features some kind of sun design (also tons of custom one-offs). Moon designs on the legs. The number 46 is his brand and his on track persona. He has a highly stylized web site.

One person is creative, the other seems to be more technical. So when Rossi gets the violin he immediately knows what needs to be done to customize it to his liking so he can play beautiful music. Rossi always expects to make changes. He WANTS to make changes. He's played many violins and he knows what he likes. He's already good enough, he wants to go to work on making the perfect machine.

Stoner is a critic. He will shake his head and then hand the engineers a list of improvements to be made. He doesn't seem to enjoy solving problems or customizing the bike. In fact, that seems to be his least favorite part. Stoner knows how far he is going to push the limit, he can't get there with a bunk instrument. Even if he's winning he's not content b/c he doesn't measure himself according to the competition, but he does hate it when the press refuse to realize that he is great.

Lex, No offense mate but that is the biggest load of crap I have ever read.

When one rider ask for changes it is called customising but when the other does it it is called critising and just handing a list of improvements. I get your metaphor and it is creative but I think you have failed by trying to twist reality to fit the metaphor.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TP70 @ Mar 7 2010, 04:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>When one rider ask for changes it is called customising but when the other does it it is called critising and just handing a list of improvements. I get your metaphor and it is creative but I think you have failed by trying to twist reality to fit the metaphor.
I also believe casey is good at setting up bikes, and he apocryphally anyway made major changes to the set-up of the gp07 when he first got on it, apparently with some good effect .

I am not sure there is great evidence that he can develop bikes, not that there is great evidence that ducati, a famously engineering orientated concern, sees much role for its motogp riders in leading such development either.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TP70 @ Mar 6 2010, 07:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Lex, No offense mate but that is the biggest load of crap I have ever read.

When one rider ask for changes it is called customising but when the other does it it is called critising and just handing a list of improvements. I get your metaphor and it is creative but I think you have failed by trying to twist reality to fit the metaphor.

Rossi ditched Honda b/c they wouldn't give him what he wanted. He gave up easy 40 second wins for a Yamaha that could barely win a race b/c he wanted the development team to listen (or so the story goes). Rossi expects the bike to evolve based upon his desires. There are tons of stories about Rossi wanting bigger RC211V fairings, or a Yamaha V4, or Michelin tires that weren't built for Pedrosa etc. etc. etc. Rossi wants what he wants. That's what matters to him.

Stoner probably couldn't care less, he just wants the bike to work. The bike must work so he can ride it at 11/10ths. He's usually scornful of change (except the big bang) unless the changes are amending a chronic problem. When the bike isn't working exactly right, he looks like he's about to pull a handgun on someone. He doesn't want to fiddle with the bike!!

MotoGP bikes are in perpetual development and they are rarely perfect. Advantage Rossi. He's got 7 MotoGP titles b/c he understands the game. But I rate Stoner as the most talented rider on the grid.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Mar 7 2010, 01:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I think that's a big part of it, but I think they are just very different people. I'm not sure they can change at this point.

They're both virtuosos so imagine they are playing violins. Yamaha builds a violin for Rossi, Ducati builds a violin for Stoner. Before they even touch the violins, their approaches are fundamentally different. Rossi sees himself as part of the creative process. He left Honda b/c they didn't listen to him. Stoner just wants to reach the next level. He wants the problem-solving/creative processes to go away.

Just look at the way they dress. Stoner..........zzzzzzzzzzzzzz (not knocking him). Rossi..............fluorescent yellow leathers (or yellow leg) with a helmet that always features some kind of sun design (also tons of custom one-offs). Moon designs on the legs. The number 46 is his brand and his on track persona. He has a highly stylized web site.

One person is creative, the other seems to be more technical. So when Rossi gets the violin he immediately knows what needs to be done to customize it to his liking so he can play beautiful music. Rossi always expects to make changes. He WANTS to make changes. He's played many violins and he knows what he likes. He's already good enough, he wants to go to work on making the perfect machine.

Stoner is a critic. He will shake his head and then hand the engineers a list of improvements to be made. He doesn't seem to enjoy solving problems or customizing the bike. In fact, that seems to be his least favorite part. Stoner knows how far he is going to push the limit, he can't get there with a bunk instrument. Even if he's winning he's not content b/c he doesn't measure himself according to the competition, but he does hate it when the press refuse to realize that he is great.

Well said. And really, this is the sort of competition we need; not robots relentlessly attempting to beat the other because they were programmed for a purpose.

Trying real hard to not get into a defending Stoner discussion here....

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Mar 7 2010, 04:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Rossi ditched Honda b/c they wouldn't give him what he wanted. He gave up easy 40 second wins for a Yamaha that could barely win a race b/c he wanted the development team to listen (or so the story goes). Rossi expects the bike to evolve based upon his desires. There are tons of stories about Rossi wanting bigger RC211V fairings, or a Yamaha V4, or Michelin tires that weren't built for Pedrosa etc. etc. etc. Rossi wants what he wants. That's what matters to him.
Rossi ditched Honda because Honda wouldn't acknowledge that Rossi won but rather held the view that Honda won and Rossi was riding it. In my opinion Rossi was correct.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Stoner probably couldn't care less, he just wants the bike to work. The bike must work so he can ride it at 11/10ths. He's usually scornful of change (except the big bang) unless the changes are amending a chronic problem. When the bike isn't working exactly right, he looks like he's about to pull a handgun on someone. He doesn't want to fiddle with the bike!!

I think this flies in the face of reality. FP in an interview clearly said that they could change the bike in anyway they wanted and Stoner would go straight back to the limit within one lap and achieve the same lap time.

I think that Rossi needs a bike that is exactly what he wants and he knows how to lead a team to get it whether it is wholesale changes or just refinements. 2007 was an example of Rossi struggling to ride around a package that fundamentally was not to his liking. Like a champion in 2008 he lead a team that made it near bloody perfect. No one else could have done that, not Stoner, not Lorenzo, not anybody.

Stoner on the other hand just rides what he gets and has probably done that for most of his career due to being less of a leader than Rossi is and therefore not being able to get exactly what he wants. There is a big bank of computers and data loggers in all the garages and I am guessing that these are used for developing the bike and refining it. If they can't fix it then Stoner just changes his style slightly and rides around it so it is no longer a problem. I see no problem in a team sport letting the team work the problems. I don't think I have ever seen these rants or aggressive head shakes you talk about but then we probably get different coverage in Australia to you. What I have seen is Stoner pissed with his own performance.

I think it is unfair to say that Stoner is less because of these differences (and I am not entirely sure you have said he is less) because as far as I see it there is no other Rossi on pit lane and to be honest I don't think there is any other Stoner. Just look at Capirossi who has great respect. In 2 seasons on Suzuki it is still a piece of ..... Now we will probably never know but could Rossi have developed that bike into a WC bike? Could Stoner have ridden around its problems and made it a multiple race winning bike? Personally I would say yes to both because both these guys are the BEST at what they do.

Hopefully I have not broken my vow of giving up on the mindless Stoner defending and my comments can be taken as respect for the unique brilliance of each rider.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Mar 7 2010, 06:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>MotoGP bikes are in perpetual development and they are rarely perfect. Advantage Rossi. He's got 7 MotoGP titles b/c he understands the game. But I rate Stoner as the most talented rider on the grid.
Whilst I agree that Stoner is the most talented rider currently on the grid I think that Rossi is the most talented racer.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Mar 7 2010, 01:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Whilst I agree that Stoner is the most talented rider currently on the grid I think that Rossi is the most talented racer.

Now that makes sense without having to write a fecking essay,I like yu style.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TP70 @ Mar 7 2010, 02:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Trying real hard to not get into a defending Stoner discussion here....


Rossi ditched Honda because Honda wouldn't acknowledge that Rossi won but rather held the view that Honda won and Rossi was riding it. In my opinion Rossi was correct.



I think this flies in the face of reality. FP in an interview clearly said that they could change the bike in anyway they wanted and Stoner would go straight back to the limit within one lap and achieve the same lap time.

I think that Rossi needs a bike that is exactly what he wants and he knows how to lead a team to get it whether it is wholesale changes or just refinements. 2007 was an example of Rossi struggling to ride around a package that fundamentally was not to his liking. Like a champion in 2008 he lead a team that made it near bloody perfect. No one else could have done that, not Stoner, not Lorenzo, not anybody.

Stoner on the other hand just rides what he gets and has probably done that for most of his career due to being less of a leader than Rossi is and therefore not being able to get exactly what he wants. There is a big bank of computers and data loggers in all the garages and I am guessing that these are used for developing the bike and refining it. If they can't fix it then Stoner just changes his style slightly and rides around it so it is no longer a problem. I see no problem in a team sport letting the team work the problems. I don't think I have ever seen these rants or aggressive head shakes you talk about but then we probably get different coverage in Australia to you. What I have seen is Stoner pissed with his own performance.

I think it is unfair to say that Stoner is less because of these differences (and I am not entirely sure you have said he is less) because as far as I see it there is no other Rossi on pit lane and to be honest I don't think there is any other Stoner. Just look at Capirossi who has great respect. In 2 seasons on Suzuki it is still a piece of ..... Now we will probably never know but could Rossi have developed that bike into a WC bike? Could Stoner have ridden around its problems and made it a multiple race winning bike? Personally I would say yes to both because both these guys are the BEST at what they do.

Hopefully I have not broken my vow of giving up on the mindless Stoner defending and my comments can be taken as respect for the unique brilliance of each rider.

Two guys buy the same bike. One guy keeps his polished and in perfect tune. The other guy immediately sets about the business of adding hundreds of custom parts simply b/c that's what he wants to do. It says nothing about their riding abilities or their inherent worth as people.

Rossi likes a silencer. Why? Just because. It probably only reduces volume by 5db. He just wants it! It's really quite amusing to read other people try to give it a technical justification (same thing with the leg dangle). For instance, the silencer is for stalking other riders. Rossi wants it b/c he wants it. It does nothing. It's only technical purpose is to give Termi some ad space.

Obviously, my examples are hyperbolic compared to reality b/c both Stoner and Rossi are comfortable with the process of developing a bike. But development is a labor of love for Rossi and a job for Stoner, imo. Their personalities give them a different x-factor. Rossi loves to work on the bike and get it just right. It means he can ride at 10/10ths pretty much whenever he wants. Stoner likes to work on his riding, and he's scornful or frustrated when the bike isn't right. I think Rossi expects to change things, Stoner expects to find the bike just how he left it.

Doohan was the same as Stoner. If you read his remarks about working for HRC, he said a big part of his success was keeping the engineers away from his bike. All of the experimental junk got passed on to Itoh or Criville. Doohan and Stoner are quite content to develop a bike, but they don't want people fooling around with it during the season after they've gotten it how it needs to be.

Do you remember Stoner at the beginning of 2008 when he found that Ducati and Bridgestone had made a bunch of changes after he stomped everyone in 2007? RAGE!!!!!

It doesn't matter what anyone does in the middle of a corner does it ? Its surely about winning races and titles.

Do think Stoner will have a good season this year tho !

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Mar 7 2010, 07:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Rossi likes a silencer. Why? Just because. It probably only reduces volume by 5db. He just wants it! It's really quite amusing to read other people try to give it a technical justification (same thing with the leg dangle). For instance, the silencer is for stalking other riders. Rossi wants it b/c he wants it. It does nothing. It's only technical purpose is to give Termi some ad space.

Actually, Rossi said he wants it because it makes less noise, and allows him to concentrate better. But your point stands, it's all about what's going on in the rider's head. The leg dangle, for example, is pure snake oil and mind games.

i think the leg thing is more about balance and feel rather than "snake oil and mind games"

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Mar 7 2010, 10:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i think the leg thing is more about balance and feel rather than "snake oil and mind games"

It's snake oil. Rossi himself says he doesn't know why he does it, and when asked at the Sachsenring this year, said when they look at the data, there's no difference whether he does it or not. He now has everyone, all the way down to WSS, doing it.

Of course, the other thing is that it works, at least when seen from Rossi's point of view. Rossi keeps winning titles. He also wins titles when he has some kind of yellow in his leathers. So it's at least as effective as wearing the color yellow.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kropotkin @ Mar 7 2010, 03:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>It's snake oil. Rossi himself says he doesn't know why he does it, and when asked at the Sachsenring this year, said when they look at the data, there's no difference whether he does it or not. He now has everyone, all the way down to WSS, doing it.

Of course, the other thing is that it works, at least when seen from Rossi's point of view. Rossi keeps winning titles. He also wins titles when he has some kind of yellow in his leathers. So it's at least as effective as wearing the color yellow.

hence "feel"..he dont have to have a reason for it other than it feels good to him...plus data cant calculate feel... And its nothing new, I member Schwantz doing it in the 90's.. not as much as Rossi now..and mostly when he was going in very hot.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Mar 7 2010, 10:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Whilst I agree that Stoner is the most talented rider currently on the grid I think that Rossi is the most talented racer.


Ummm - what exactly is the difference between rider and racer?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keshav @ Mar 7 2010, 04:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ummm - what exactly is the difference between rider and racer?

he's meaning Rossi is better over all

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xx CURVE xx @ Mar 7 2010, 11:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>hence "feel"..he dont have to have a reason for it other than it feels good to him...plus data cant calculate feel... And its nothing new, I member Schwantz doing it in the 90's.. not as much as Rossi now..and mostly when he was going in very hot.

I asked Schwantz about that at Valencia and he said it started when his foot slipped off the peg, and it took time and effort to get it back onto the peg. Schwantz had a rational explanation for why Rossi does the leg wave, Keith Code believes it is snake oil and mind games.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Keshav @ Mar 7 2010, 11:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ummm - what exactly is the difference between rider and racer?
Look at Pedrosa for a good example of a talented rider who is not a talented racer.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kropotkin @ Mar 7 2010, 11:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I asked Schwantz about that at Valencia and he said it started when his foot slipped off the peg, and it took time and effort to get it back onto the peg. Schwantz had a rational explanation for why Rossi does the leg wave, Keith Code believes it is snake oil and mind games.
Any chance of detailing this?

I remembered this speculation from a user called Squackitts on <span style="color:#0000FFRo2 last august and thought you might find it interesting :

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>I think he knows very well why he does it and he's not telling. This does not mean that he does it for the reasons I've come up with (Or repeat. if I haven't paid enough attention. This may be entirely unoriginal.)

I've tried to put myself in the situation during which this leg business occurs in. He's bombing down a straight, 200mph, time to stop. The bike transforms from a sleek projectile, almost serene in its rage, into a tightly balled mass of conflicting forces, the rider is perched on top, every muscle and sinew locked to brace himself against what I can only imagine are simply colossal forces. The front and rear suspension are reacting to the same stimuli in completely different ways. The front tire is deformed into a kind of splat against the tarmac. Everything is on the limit.

The riders arms are locked out, the riders arms are reacting to the same forces that that are compressing the the front suspension to its maximum. I would hazard a guess, and say that in extremis, the riders whole upper body might as well be made out of wood.

The carbon brakes are causing the riders normal transducers for feel to be out of range (Once the arms and shoulders are locked out and all muscular effort is concentrating on opposing a a force, they will be giving very little feedback). If the rider has his leg sticking out right at the moment of maximum braking force (The moment where he absolutely must stop NOW) he has made himself an accelerometer. It is free to monitor the amount of force that is crushing the rest of his body, sending the meters off the scale. The signals recieved from a leg hanging away from the side of a moving body that is nothing more than a tightly knotted ball of compression and resistance will let the rider know when the front is about to let go, because the free part of the body will feel the diminishing / increasing braking force before any other part of the rider. This is simply because it is the only part of the rider that can monitor the force. The normal sensing range of everything else is gone. Only a greatly talented human being would be able to use the feedback from the accelerometer to modulate his braking force.

There is no benefit to a road rider. This is only of any use to an individual who is so highly developed that he can exploit the machine to a point where normal methods of figuring everything out do not work. For example with carbon brakes and mind bogglingly grippy tires.

That's my take on it. The leg dangle is not the same as the Hungry Arse or kneeling by the bike. It's a valuable tool in his inventory.