Gran Premi Monster Energy de Catalunya(spoilers mixed with stoner/rossi talk)

WVMotoGP99 said:

Only time Ali was a "blabber-mouth clown" was per fight. Ali was, and will always be, the master of trash talk and psyching some one out. He had some fight beat before they even stepped food in the ring. Out side of per fight ........., I know of no time he was a "blabber-mouth clown". A. He answered questions and stood by he faith, for good or bad, but never "blabber-mouth" about it.


B. I am sure this is going to go over like a lead ballon, but, isn't all religion based on some part of silly myths?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

A. I'm sure I don't want to open a side-track about Ali. I've seen him in so many interviews where he just jabbered nonsensical stuff that was so out there that I felt embarrassed for him. Maybe other folks filtered it differently.

B. Absolutely. I just felt (back in the '60s) that Elijah Mohammed's crude, distorted, self-serving mash-up of Islam was particularly ugly as it was so openly divisive, inflammatory and polarizing at a time when Martin Luther King and his compatriots were truly heroic in their efforts to heal the divide that was tearing up the country. When Malcolm X. became a true Muslim and came to understand the real nature of the teachings - he split with E.M. leaving them feeling exposed for what they really were and that's why they killed him. If Ali had gone the way of Malcolm X and parted ways with N.O.I. I'd have respected him much more.

moto vudu said:

It's perfectly fine if you disapprove of his character. If Rossi had a character that you DID approve of, thousands of his current fans would probably NOT like him. It just so happens that he has a character type that you don't like, but others relate to.

I think Rossi's stardom in MotoGP is similar to Michael Jordan in NBA. He could bully competitors and use his stardom to sway refs to make calls in his favor. But you know that millions of people purchases tickets to go see him and often went home amazed at his performances.

Click to expand...

The Jordan comparison doesn't work at all.

While Jordan was certainly afforded leeway in terms of calls and the like by referees, he enjoyed no such advantage that allowed him to capture the 6 titles with far greater ease. He made his debut in the 1984, and didn't see his first NBA finals till the spring of 1991. People believe differently now, but back in the late 1980s, there were real questions as to whether or not Jordan had what it took to become a champion. Think about that. The guy people extol as the definition of greatness and championships was openly questioned as a winner prior to 1991. It took multiple beatdowns by the Pistons in the playoffs before Jordan and the Bulls finally broke through against them in May 1991. Jordan in previous years had been physically assaulted by the Pistons and wound up bulking up in the gym to be able to handle the physicality which the Bad Boys Pistons played with. The other problem Jordan had was openly berating and disparaging of teammates. Phil Jackson was the coach who finally got through to Jordan during the 1990-1991 season, and got Jordan to buy into the team aspect of the game. Shoot less, pass more, involve his teammates more. Jordan resisted this at many points, but when he bought into it, that was what finally elevated the Bulls over the Pistons. The Bulls eviscerated the Lakers in the '91 Finals and ended the Showtime Lakers for good. Memories have faded regarding Jordan from 1984-1991, but he was not what a lot of people think Jordan is now. He also had to work harder than anyone realizes to just get that first title.

Rossi on the other hand was gifted advantages right out of the gate whether one wants to admit that or not, and whether it was right or wrong. He never had to face any real adversity in his career till 2007, and he handled the adversity horrifically. In fact every bit of adversity he faced in his career has been remarkable for how poorly he handled it. Jordan handled it poorly as well, but eventually learned how to overcome it. Rossi never has to date.

Daniboy said:

You avoided my question again fgs , I'll repeat it for clarity. Did you enjoy the races yesterday?

Click to expand...

Again the assumption of superiority on your part. The majority of posters on here are fanboys almost by definition, you (and I ) most definitely among them.

I enjoyed the race, and the skill displayed by both the lead riders in particular. It was in fact a Rossi fan, Motovudu (somewhat surprisingly) who started the "I told you so-ing"'and contentions that the "Rossi haters" on here would not have appreciated the race because they were haters of Rossi more than fans of the sport on this occasion, which you have continued. It should hardly have been unexpected that your opponents on here would then re-visit their objections to Rossi , objections you have repeatedly proven incapable of refuting I might add. I don't believe anyone had any objections to his riding in the race or behaviour during it.

JPSLotus said:

The Jordan comparison doesn't work at all.

While Jordan was certainly afforded leeway in terms of calls and the like by referees, he enjoyed no such advantage that allowed him to capture the 6 titles with far greater ease. He made his debut in the 1984, and didn't see his first NBA finals till the spring of 1991. People believe differently now, but back in the late 1980s, there were real questions as to whether or not Jordan had what it took to become a champion. Think about that. The guy people extol as the definition of greatness and championships was openly questioned as a winner prior to 1991. It took multiple beatdowns by the Pistons in the playoffs before Jordan and the Bulls finally broke through against them in May 1991. Jordan in previous years had been physically assaulted by the Pistons and wound up bulking up in the gym to be able to handle the physicality which the Bad Boys Pistons played with. The other problem Jordan had was openly berating and disparaging of teammates. Phil Jackson was the coach who finally got through to Jordan during the 1990-1991 season, and got Jordan to buy into the team aspect of the game. Shoot less, pass more, involve his teammates more. Jordan resisted this at many points, but when he bought into it, that was what finally elevated the Bulls over the Pistons. The Bulls eviscerated the Lakers in the '91 Finals and ended the Showtime Lakers for good. Memories have faded regarding Jordan from 1984-1991, but he was not what a lot of people think Jordan is now. He also had to work harder than anyone realizes to just get that first title.

Rossi on the other hand was gifted advantages right out of the gate whether one wants to admit that or not, and whether it was right or wrong. He never had to face any real adversity in his career till 2007, and he handled the adversity horrifically. In fact every bit of adversity he faced in his career has been remarkable for how poorly he handled it. Jordan handled it poorly as well, but eventually learned how to overcome it. Rossi never has to date.

Click to expand...

I could say Marquez coming into MotoGP directly on a factory Honda is a gifted advantage. Lorenzo coming in directly on a factory Yamaha is a gifted advantage. But, they're champions in lower classes and showed a lot of potential so the factories wanted them on their bike. Same with Rossi, 125 & 250 champion, he joins the 500cc class with a good bike & team.

To say that Rossi has never overcome adversity is ridiculous. Who else has had to adapt their riding style as much as him? He struggled in qualifying when they changed from one long session to the 15 min Q1 & Q2 sessions. He has worked hard to improve in that area as well as being fast at the start of the race on fresh tires. Is Lorenzo working on improving his ability to adapt his riding style for tires that lack significant edge grip?

moto vudu said:

It's perfectly fine if you disapprove of his character. If Rossi had a character that you DID approve of, thousands of his current fans would probably NOT like him. It just so happens that he has a character type that you don't like, but others relate to.

I think Rossi's stardom in MotoGP is similar to Michael Jordan in NBA. He could bully competitors and use his stardom to sway refs to make calls in his favor. But you know that millions of people purchased tickets to go see him and often went home amazed at his performances.

Click to expand...

If you are not a native speaker of Emglish you have a great ability with languages, but you don't seem to understand the distinction I am making between character and personality. By character I mean moral character, not personality characteristics. I didn't follow the NBA in Jordan's day as much as I do now, but while like Rossi a ruthless competitor, with which as a Doohan fan I have absolutely no problem, I don't believe he employed and encouraged his fans in petty campaigns of vilification of his rivals off court, and if he did then this was also reprehensible and he had moronic glory hunting fans too.

michaelm said:

If you are not a native speaker of Emglish you have a great ability with languages, but you don't seem to understand the distinction I am making between character and personality. By character I mean moral character, not personality characteristics. I didn't follow the NBA in Jordan's day as much as I do now, but while like Rossi a ruthless competitor, with which as a Doohan fan I have absolutely no problem, I don't believe he employed and encouraged his fans in petty campaigns of vilification of his rivals off court, and if he did then this was also reprehensible and he had moronic glory hunting fans too.

Click to expand...

Your belief that Rossi uses his fans to vilify his competitors overshadows all of the positive things he has done for the sport?

moto vudu said:

Your belief that Rossi uses his fans to vilify his competitors overshadows all of the positive things he has done for the sport?

Click to expand...

Yes it does.

In fact, I'm curious, what positive things has he done for the sport?

JPSLotus said:

Yes it does.

In fact, I'm curious, what positive things has he done for the sport?

Click to expand...

Do you see Rossi's Moto3 team as something positive?

moto vudu said:

I could say Marquez coming into MotoGP directly on a factory Honda is a gifted advantage. Lorenzo coming in directly on a factory Yamaha is a gifted advantage. But, they're champions in lower classes and showed a lot of potential so the factories wanted them on their bike. Same with Rossi, 125 & 250 champion, he joins the 500cc class with a good bike & team.

To say that Rossi has never overcome adversity is ridiculous. Who else has had to adapt their riding style as much as him? He struggled in qualifying when they changed from one long session to the 15 min Q1 & Q2 sessions. He has worked hard to improve in that area as well as being fast at the start of the race on fresh tires. Is Lorenzo working on improving his ability to adapt his riding style for tires that lack significant edge grip?

Click to expand...

I was not a fan of MM getting the factory ride right out of the gate. Don't think it should have happened.

Lorenzo was a different case as if you'll kindly recall, he was forced to ride with the Michelin tires while his teammate threatened to quit GP unless supplied with Bridgestone tires for the 2008 season....a deal with Ezpeleta personally brokered. However Lorenzo was not included in that deal.

Adapting riding style is but one facet. There's far more instances of where he faced adversity and handled it in a manner as poor as could ever have been expected. While impressive, it is not the same as what his behavior was in the wake of being demolished by Casey Stoner in the 2007 season. To say nothing of the orchestrated campaigns of hate against numerous competitors who he didn't like. Then there was the 2010 campaign where he demanded number one status, that he did not deserve, then announced he was going to Ducati, where he claimed he would show the world how Stoner was underachieving and the cause of the problems for the bike. Once he realized just how much he had got it wrong after the Valencia 2010 test, he was bailed out by Carmelo in mid-2012 to be parachuted back in at Yamaha...something that had never been afforded to a rider who was going to be 34 years old. Any other rider who had been Valentino's age when they were on the Desmosedici would have been fortunate just to get one of the factory supported satellite teams. Another factory ride was unheard of till that time. Then we saw what happened down the stretch last season when he realized the title was slipping away from him. Not really a guy who handles true adversity well.

moto vudu said:

Do you see Rossi's Moto3 team as something positive?

Click to expand...

What makes him having a Moto 3 team any more special than any other Moto 3 team on the grid? Not a snarky response. Genuinely curious.

moto vudu said:

Your belief that Rossi uses his fans to vilify his competitors overshadows all of the positive things he has done for the sport?

Click to expand...

It is not a belief, it is a certainty, and it didn't prior to that Sepang press conference, as I said I blamed his fans themselves before then. But yes, it pretty much does now, particularly after the move he pulled at Sepang, and this continues even in the face of my Lorenzo fanboyism being currently on the wane a little because of him considering the track changes to be about him and the threat to his race result because of it apparently being more important than the death of his compatriot.

I was quite happy with the sport in the 80s and 90s before Rossi ever appeared btw; the coverage is better now, but that was probably an inevitable consequence of technological improvements rather than much to do with Rossi. I still got to watch every race live back then with better commentators than are available to me now, Barry Sheene for one.

The main thing Rossi has done for the sport from my point of view is to make continuing to compete unpleasant and in some cases no longer worthwhile for his rivals, not necessarily in the last decade anyway by being better than them on track.

I don't like bullying, however subtle the means.

Jumkie said:

Yet, it was Marquez with the presence of mind to take advantage of Rossi’s high emotions to extend his hand. Rossi was happy, and when you're emotionally high like that you're more susceptible to conciliation. Everybody is saying it was because of Salom's death, and that partly played, but Marc using the moment of Rossi's EGO was very mature for the lad.

Click to expand...

What difference does it make who put out their hand first? If Rossi approached first you would have screamed 'fake' and 'contrived'. There can never ever be any discussion concerning Rossi because no matter what he do you will spin it in a negative evil way. How can you be taken seriosuly calling a rider 'muderer'. It is comical. You are by far worse than any Rossi 'bopper' on this forum.

JPSLotus said:

Tensions could have been reduced at any given time.

I distinctly recall Marquez winning in Argentina and COTA, and Rossi being on the podium next to him. No such effort was made by Rossi. Even prior to the season, MM was on record stating that he hoped things could be fixed with Rossi...in fact he expressed a desire multiple times since Sepang, only for Rossi to not give an inch.

Click to expand...

You are delusional to believe that Rossi would be the one to reduce tensions and offer peace after being being deliberately interfered with by rider who was already mathematical eliminate from the title and was riding with some of the most aggressive actions I've ever seen in any moto race to induce a mistake (crash) . The rift between them was a Marc creation, he admitted himself being upset about Argentina and Assen.

JPSLotus said:

Yes it does.

In fact, I'm curious, what positive things has he done for the sport?

Click to expand...

Let's see now. Maybe perhaps bringing in and introducing tens of millions of MotoGp fans, running his own Moto3 team, having his own riding school to help find and train new talent. What more can a rider do? You want him to solve world hunger?

What has Marquez done positive for the sport? Jorge? What has the complainer Stoner ever do for the sport? Answer: nothing, none of these people have come close to what Rossi has done

JPSLotus said:

I'm a hockey fan, and back in 2000 Boston Bruin, Marty McSorley swung his stick at the head of fellow competitor Donald Brashear. It was a heat of the moment reaction he had. You know what happened to McSorley? He was suspended from the NHL and he was also prosecuted for criminal charges in Canada. He was found guilty of assault with a weapon. His suspension was extended to a year after that conviction, and he never played another game in the NHL again. All because of one moment where he lost his head, he found himself out of the sport he played.

Click to expand...

You know hockey, well so do I so allow me to correct you. Don't try and compare with a sport that many on this forum don't know about.

Your example of Marty McSorley is poor. He never played another game not because of what his stick swinging but because he was a zero talent player who couldn't do anything other than fight and was already 37 and at the end of his career.

While that video you post look bad, you forgot to add the very important context, of course to advance your anti-Rossi agenda. Brashear came back quickly and continue to play another decade. Todd Bertuzzi almost killed someone on the ice and ended that players career (Steve Moore) and left him with permanent post concussion syndrome. Bertuzzi was suspended, and after his suspension conntinue to play for years despite lawsuits and assault charges. So flush your 'Rossi should be suspended forever' ........ down the toilet where it belong with most of your posts.

JPSLotus said:

I was not a fan of MM getting the factory ride right out of the gate. Don't think it should have happened.

Lorenzo was a different case as if you'll kindly recall, he was forced to ride with the Michelin tires while his teammate threatened to quit GP unless supplied with Bridgestone tires for the 2008 season....a deal with Ezpeleta personally brokered. However Lorenzo was not included in that deal.

Adapting riding style is but one facet. There's far more instances of where he faced adversity and handled it in a manner as poor as could ever have been expected. While impressive, it is not the same as what his behavior was in the wake of being demolished by Casey Stoner in the 2007 season. To say nothing of the orchestrated campaigns of hate against numerous competitors who he didn't like. Then there was the 2010 campaign where he demanded number one status, that he did not deserve, then announced he was going to Ducati, where he claimed he would show the world how Stoner was underachieving and the cause of the problems for the bike. Once he realized just how much he had got it wrong after the Valencia 2010 test, he was bailed out by Carmelo in mid-2012 to be parachuted back in at Yamaha...something that had never been afforded to a rider who was going to be 34 years old. Any other rider who had been Valentino's age when they were on the Desmosedici would have been fortunate just to get one of the factory supported satellite teams. Another factory ride was unheard of till that time. Then we saw what happened down the stretch last season when he realized the title was slipping away from him. Not really a guy who handles true adversity well.

Click to expand...

How many other 34 y/o riders came before Rossi with as many titles and similar ability to still compete with the young riders? It's not like Yamaha was taking back a scrub with no chance of winning.

JPSLotus said:

What makes him having a Moto 3 team any more special than any other Moto 3 team on the grid? Not a snarky response. Genuinely curious.

Click to expand...

Is his team not providing an opportunity/gateway for young riders? Not that his team is more special than the other teams, but it's still one example of Valentino giving back to the sport.

paparazzo said:

.



You are delusional to believe that Rossi would be the one to reduce tensions and offer peace after being being deliberately interfered with by rider who was already mathematical eliminate from the title and was riding with some of the most aggressive actions I've ever seen in any moto race to induce a mistake (crash) . The rift between them was a Marc creation, he admitted himself being upset about Argentina and Assen.

Click to expand...

The delusions started with Ross'si public airing of his conspiracy theory about PI. If MM had any unprovable suspicions/grievances about Argentina or Assen prior to that Sepang press conference he kept them to himself as he should have, and it was his manager who is universally acknowledged to be a complete ........ who was the source of anything subsequently. As Hunter Thompson said about Richard Nixon, that guy is so crooked it would take a whole team of people to screw him into his trousers every morning.

You may not have been watching for long, but what MM was doing at Sepang is known as bike racing, which he was doing cleanly and legally. You are well aware of historical precedents, in particular Laguna Seca 2008 and Motegi 2010 when Rossi himself made moves more over the edge than any of MM's at Sepang 2015, for more laps at LS 08, and in similar circumstances at Motegi 2010 with the exception that his opponent in Jorge was his team-mate then. He had 3 options other than taking MM out of the race with an illegal non-racing move, those of being fast enough not to let Lorenzo past in the first place, being fast enough to make a pass stick on MM, and of waiting to see whether MM had the pace to take him up to JL. It is understandable he did not take the third option. In the nature of things he passed MM one more time than MM passed him in their contretemps, btw, so he was a better than even contributor to the duel.

There are those of us who don't consider him bringing glory-hunting fans to the sport who will likely depart with him much of a contribution to the sport, btw.

moto vudu said:

How many other 34 y/o riders came before Rossi with as many titles and similar ability to still compete with the young riders? It's not like Yamaha was taking back a scrub with no chance of winning.

Click to expand...

History reflected that ever top rider was done at the age of 34 and there was zero reason to take a chance on a 34 year old rider. Actually forget that, Yamaha Racing didn't even want Rossi back. He wasn't worth the baggage that he comes with, but marketing won out over that. The irony is racing ran Lorenzo out of the team after the ........ of not even celebrating his title.

Yamaha could have kept Ben Spies for 2013 and been no worse for it results-wise. It's why I respect Honda's position after the 2003 debacle where they swore Rossi would never sit on another Honda ever again....and he hasn't.

JPSLotus said:

History reflected that ever top rider was done at the age of 34 and there was zero reason to take a chance on a 34 year old rider. Actually forget that, Yamaha Racing didn't even want Rossi back. He wasn't worth the baggage that he comes with, but marketing won out over that. The irony is racing ran Lorenzo out of the team after the ........ of not even celebrating his title.

Yamaha could have kept Ben Spies for 2013 and been no worse for it results-wise. It's why I respect Honda's position after the 2003 debacle where they swore Rossi would never sit on another Honda ever again....and he hasn't.

Click to expand...

How do you figure he wasn't worth the baggage when he has been a strong championship contender for 2 seasons now?

I seriously doubt Rossi has any desire to be back on a Honda, the feelings between Honda and Rossi are mutual. However, I'd bet if Rossi did return to Honda... the RCV would improve quicker than it currently will with MM leading development.

moto vudu said:

How many other 34 y/o riders came before Rossi with as many titles and similar ability to still compete with the young riders? It's not like Yamaha was taking back a scrub with no chance of winning.

Click to expand...

I don't have any problem with Yamaha taking Rossi back then. He was much the best available rider then imo, as events have subsequently proved, the touted alternative being Pol Espargaro iirc.

Anyone heard from mark419ny? He could be in severe depression after Rossi beat MM.

moto vudu said:

How do you figure he wasn't worth the baggage when he has been a strong championship contender for 2 seasons now?

I seriously doubt Rossi has any desire to be back on a Honda, the feelings between Honda and Rossi are mutual. However, I'd bet if Rossi did return to Honda... the RCV would improve quicker than it currently will with MM leading development.

Click to expand...

You forget being on a Honda or Yamaha gives you a 25% chance of winning a race before the lights go out. Seriously, the last time a grand prix was won by someone other than a factory Yamaha or Honda was Phillip Island 2010 when Stoner gave Ducati their last victory. Nearly 6 years have gone by and it's been all Yamaha and Honda. You are guaranteed to be a championship contender by just being on one of those 4 bikes now.

Current standings are:

1 Marc Marquez Repsol Honda 125
2 Jorge Lorenzo Movistar Yamaha 115
3 Valentino Rossi Movistar Yamaha 103
4 Dani Pedrosa Repsol Honda 82

Anyway, the media has done a great job since you believe Rossi would fix the RCV. He couldn't fix the Ducati in the two years he was there. Him as the great fixer is another myth. You saying the feeling is mutual is to ignore that Honda said he would never ride one of their bikes again. Is this your way of trying to help Rossi save face by telling us he wouldn't want to be there anyway? lol if he thought Honda would be unbeatable for the next 10 years straight, he would be moving heaven and earth to try and get back on one of their bikes. Carmelo would throw him another golden parachute.