Formula 1 2008

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 7 2008, 12:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Here come the "should ofs" Because those world championhip points the drivers spend all that time trying to achieve are meaningless compared to your discretion, why don't you just pick the world champion each year and screw what actually happens

I know what happened, i know the cars aren't equal, but when are they? You can "read into it" all day long until you reach your favorable conclusions but if you really believed that there would be no need for your chosen driver to ever achieve anything. You could simply decide a driver was the best regardless of results (something that some Kimi fans might have been used to before last year )
Well you know, some fans do that, but I don't. I think you should first watch those seasons before making these statements. I'm not saying things to favour Kimi. I've seen what happened, and I know that Alonso was the deserved winner in 05, and also 06, but it was never ''by far''. And lots of people who never watched those seasons, just look at the stats, and immediately jump to conclusions. It's not fair I think.

ps. Do you think Pedrosa is a better rider than Hayden??

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Franco Fangio @ Apr 7 2008, 12:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. Well you know, some fans do that, but I don't.

2. ps. Do you think Pedrosa is a better rider than Hayden??

1. You do it all the time

2. By far

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 7 2008, 12:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>yea but people drive the cars they drive for a reason. Kimi may have had an unreliable car at times but he has a reputation for being hard on machinary, and his development skills have been questioned too. Furthermore we speak of Alonso's "bad year" in 2007 and that sounds harsh, but it was in reality a disaster because look at the result of it. He isn't fighting for the title this year because he took a risk that didn't work out, and the results will refelct that.
May have had? More like ''yes, definitely''.
I've heard it too, Kimi was too hard on his equipment, Kimi was abusive, Kimi this, Kim that..you know what, I also never thought Kimi was super smooth those years, but those cars are supposed to be ''strong''. When a driver drives on the maximum, it shouldn't break down, but then again I'm not technical, so I might be talking crap. But that's not the point.

You're right though, Fernando isn't driving a winning able car this season because of a reason. But I still think you're too obsessed with stats. If Kimi wins the title this season, and also wins more races than FA, I can start claiming he's the best driver, and not FA, but I wont do that, because I know FA is driving a crappy car.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 6 2008, 11:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Here come the "should ofs" Because those world championhip points the drivers spend all that time trying to achieve are meaningless compared to your discretion, why don't you just pick the world champion each year and screw what actually happens

Me i'm trying to prove that there isn't a big difference between the two as you claimed. You see i'm using examples to back up my point where as I haven't seen anything from you backing up that Alonso is "by far" the better driver.

Looking back whenever Alonso and Raikkonen has strong cars they've both been close which to me suggests that Alonso isn't by far the better driver.

Did I say they're are meaningless? So now you're posting some .... that wasn't said?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 7 2008, 01:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. You do it all the time

2. By far
1. If you think so.

2. So Dani is better than Nicky?? I remember we had a chat once, and you said that someone who didn't win a title cant be better than someone who did win a title. Hayden won in 06 and Dani never won a title in Moto. So how come you say that Dani is better now??
By the way, I also think Dani is BY FAR better than Nicky, but I never made such a statement.

When the seasons over and Kimi is well ahead of Alonso, I can now claim Kimi is "by far" the better driver.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pacman @ Apr 7 2008, 01:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Me i'm trying to prove that there isn't a big difference between the two as you claimed. You see i'm using examples to back up my point where as I haven't seen anything from you backing up that Alonso is "by far" the better driver.

Looking back whenever Alonso and Raikkonen has strong cars they've both been close which to me suggests that Alonso isn't by far the better driver.

Did I say they're are meaningless? So now you're posting some .... that wasn't said?
Exactly!!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pacman @ Apr 7 2008, 01:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>When the seasons over and Kimi is well ahead of Alonso, I can now claim Kimi is "by far" the better driver.
Well..according to Tom's logic we would be right to do so

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Franco Fangio @ Apr 7 2008, 12:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>May have had? More like ''yes, definitely''.
I've heard it too, Kimi was too hard on his equipment, Kimi was abusive, Kimi this, Kim that..you know what, I also never thought Kimi was super smooth those years, but those cars are supposed to be ''strong''. When a driver drives on the maximum, it shouldn't break down, but then again I'm not technical, so I might be talking crap. But that's not the point.

You're right though, Fernando isn't driving a winning able car this season because of a reason. But I still think you're too obsessed with stats. If Kimi wins the title this season, and also wins more races than FA, I can start claiming he's the best driver, and not FA, but I wont do that, because I know FA is driving a crappy car.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pacman @ Apr 7 2008, 12:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Looking back whenever Alonso and Raikkonen has strong cars they've both been close which to me suggests that Alonso isn't by far the better driver.

My very uncomplicated opinion is that there is little point in comparing driver "potential" when you percieve them to be on equal terms in x,y or z situation is pointless in the greater scheme of things because ultimately its what they actually achieve that counts. A driver who has been competative just once could point out that when his equipment was good enough he could beat whichever driver it was, and therefore was as good as him. But is he if he never actually matches the other driver achievements? Of course not. Can you not see that as soon as you start to freely use your discretion to make these judgements there is no fixed limit for its application, so fairness in judgement is absoloutely impossible to achieve?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Franco Fangio @ Apr 7 2008, 12:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>2. So Dani is better than Nicky?? I remember we had a chat once, and you said that someone who didn't win a title cant be better than someone who did win a title. Hayden won in 06 and Dani never won a title in Moto. So how come you say that Dani is better now??
By the way, I also think Dani is BY FAR better than Nicky, but I never made such a statement.

Dani is currently the better rider (leading the world title), but if neither of them ever raced again Nicky has achieved more (ex world champion).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 7 2008, 01:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>My very uncomplicated opinion is that there is little point in comparing driver "potential" when you percieve them to be on equal terms in x,y or z situation is pointless in the greater scheme of things because ultimately its what they actually achieve that counts. A driver who has been competative just once could point out that when his equipment was good enough he could beat whichever driver it was, and therefore was as good as him. But is he if he never actually matches the other driver achievements? Of course not. Can you not see that as soon as you start to freely use your discretion to make these judgements there is no fixed limit for its application, so fairness in judgement is absoloutely impossible to achieve?
Well maybe we should stop comparing FA and KR then??

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 7 2008, 01:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Dani is currently the better rider (leading the world title), but if neither of them ever raced again Nicky has achieved more (ex world champion).
achieved more..for sure!! That's true, but you said a driver who never won a title cant be better than a driver who did, those are your words, I remember it vividly, because it kinda annoyed me, and I definitely didn't agree. I remember saying I thought Stirling Moss was better than Jaques Villeneuve, but you said it was impossible because JV won a title, and Moss didn't. I dont want to go into all that again, but I think the way you are using stats is too easy.

About Dani, I always thought Dani was a better rider, even when Nicky won in 06 I felt Dani was the better of the two.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Franco Fangio @ Apr 7 2008, 12:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. Well maybe we should stop comparing FA and KR then??


2.That's true, but you said a driver who never won a title cant be better than a driver who did,

3.About Dani, I always thought Dani was a better rider, even when Nicky won in 06 I felt Dani was the better of the two.

1. well it certainly shouldn't take this long to realize that 2 is a bigger number than 1

2. Dani may still win a world title as could Nicky, they still have active careers so their current ability can be compared, but is not necessarily the same as their comparitive overall ability.

3. I passionately disagree with that

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Apr 7 2008, 01:38 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. well it certainly shouldn't take this long to realize that 2 is a bigger number than 1

2. Dani may still win a world title as could Nicky, they still have active careers so their current ability can be compared, but is not necessarily the same as their comparitive overall ability.

3. I passionately disagree with that
1. That wasn't what we were talking about. I also know that 2 is more than 1. But I guess there's no point in talking about it, if you keep looking at stats only.

2. Time will tell I guess. I'm sure Dani will one day win the title. Maybe this season.

3. Maybe I wasn't so clear, I didn't mean Dani was better than Nicky in 06, I meant I always thought Dani was the better rider of the two, overall (I just read it back, and it seemed like I meant he was better in 06, my mistake, but I meant overall).

You can disagree, that's fine. In the past we've agreed too often, I think it's time we start disagreeing about things

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (pacman @ Apr 6 2008, 08:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If he was wished in any team, how come Renault were the only ones interested in him?

I've stated my reasons why so deal with it.

Haikkonen, sorry I mean Raikkonen no.1

Yes Alonso is the best. That's the best thing you've said all day

Only Renault interested? Did you ever read a news about F1?

There were "only" Red Bull, Renault, Honda, Toyota and BMW interested on him and Ferrari "wasn't" interested just because they could not keep two number one drivers in the same team, but Todt NEVER hidden the interest in Fernando. They simply couldn't kick Kimi's ... just after he won a tittle (by pure lucky, really..).

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gui22a @ Apr 7 2008, 01:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Only Renault interested? Did you ever read a news about F1?

There were "only" Red Bull, Renault, Honda, Toyota and BMW interested on him and Ferrari "wasn't" interested just because they could not keep two number one drivers in the same team, but Todt NEVER hidden the interest in Fernando. They simply couldn't kick Kimi's ... just after he won a tittle (by pure lucky, really..).
Are you kidding me, Guilherme??

I know that you believe in this ''conspiracy theory'' of Ferrari favouring Kimi over Massa, but that's not the case. They both had the same chances from the start on. And if you look back at the first half of the season, Massa actually beat Kimi, not by a great margin, but overall he did a better job than the Finn. Then, when Kimi adapted to the car, the tyres and the team, he started winning more often, and being more confident. He won more races than Massa, and don't say Massa had more ''bad luck'', they both didn't finish 2 times (or they both had 2 problems that year). Of course a lot of Massa fans feel a bit bitter about the whole situation, and they also keep repeating that kimi wouldnt have won if it wasnt for Massa's help. And..of course Kimi won in Brazil because Massa ''let him'' win, but Kimi would have done the same if Massa was the title contender. Overall, Raikkonen did a better job than Massa, it's really as simple as that. And I would still like to know why you think Massa is a better driver than Raikkonen. You claimed that in a previous post.

I'm off to bed now, I'm tired!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Franco Fangio @ Apr 7 2008, 08:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I'm off to bed now, I'm tired!!

Have a nice and well-deserved rest sis!

you know, this i don't get: why would ferrari continue to pay someone whom they don't want to win? if you're a company, and you're shelling out money (not just any amount of money), don't you want to gain something out of your expenses? wouldn't you want an asset to compensate your liabilities?

if they want to support just one driver, then why not hire just one driver? that way, they would have cut their operating cost. but of course, that's not allowed in formula 1, so each team must hire two drivers. now, if you are forced to hire two drivers, then don't you want the second driver to perform as well (for the reasons i've pointed out in the previous paragraph)?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (somedamnwriter @ Apr 6 2008, 10:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>if they want to support just one driver, then why not hire just one driver? that way, they would have cut their operating cost. but of course, that's not allowed in formula 1, so each team must hire two drivers. now, if you are forced to hire two drivers, then don't you want the second driver to perform as well (for the reasons i've pointed out in the previous paragraph)?

Pretty simple, they need a shield for their "champion", to take as points as possible from competition and also win team's tittle. Who don't see that it's because don't want to see. It's too clear.

Eddie Irvine and Barrichelo were only a shield for Schumacher, Ferrari managed both like a puppet and now do it with Massa, who should stay with Sauber BMW since the beginning.

It's a shame after so many episodes of joking Irvine, Barrichelo (Barrichelo asks to leave, he cannot support that anymore) and Massa you all assume that it is pretty normal. Maybe both of you need some more skeptical eyes. Nothing personal...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gui22a @ Apr 7 2008, 10:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Pretty simple, they need a shield for their "champion", to take as points as possible from competition and also win team's tittle. Who don't see that it's because don't want to see. It's too clear.

Eddie Irvine and Barrichelo were only a shield for Schumacher, Ferrari managed both like a puppet and now do it with Massa, who should stay with Sauber BMW since the beginning.

It's a shame after so many episodes of joking Irvine, Barrichelo (Barrichelo asks to leave, he cannot support that anymore) and Massa you all assume that it is pretty normal. Maybe both of you need some more skeptical eyes. Nothing personal...

i get your point...but that's talking about winning the WORLD TITLE...not just winning alone.

im talking about winning alone. if they .... up with massa, then he won't win and that's what i don't get, coz they'll just be wasting money.

if they want a shield for kimi, they want massa to perform well, but not better than kimi. that way, they can ensure that massa takes points away from the OPPOSITION and not from his teammate.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (somedamnwriter @ Apr 7 2008, 12:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>i get your point...but that's talking about winning the WORLD TITLE...not just winning alone.

im talking about winning alone. if they .... up with massa, then he won't win and that's what i don't get, coz they'll just be wasting money.

if they want a shield for kimi, they want massa to perform well, but not better than kimi. that way, they can ensure that massa takes points away from the OPPOSITION and not from his teammate.

Maybe coz this weekeend Massa was far superior than Kimi and Ferrari take the point, Ferrari knows that messing too hard with Massa today could cause him to "commit a mistake" again by forcing him to pushing hard in a moment of pure angry. It's hard to keep two number ones and Massa maybe is not accepting so easy the idea of being a shield. I think he can leave Ferrari in the end of the season, I hope for this, Massa should come back to Sauber. Ferrari has only one seat, the seat of the champion. The other, unfortunately is one more guy to help him.

Nelson Piquet father told us, many times he slept inside the car in last night before the race coz his team messed up his car to favor the number one, and he knows it, that is true it's not a joking. We saw last year Mclaren clearly favoring Hamilton over Alonso, why is so difficult for some too accept this?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gui22a @ Apr 7 2008, 10:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Maybe coz this weekeend Massa was far superior than Kimi and Ferrari take the point, Ferrari knows that messing too hard with Massa today could cause him to "commit a mistake" again by forcing him to pushing hard in a moment of pure angry. It's hard to keep two number ones and Massa maybe is not accepting so easy the idea of being a shield. I think he can leave Ferrari in the end of the season, I hope for this, Massa should come back to Sauber. Ferrari has only one seat, the seat of the champion. The other, unfortunately is one more guy to help him.

Nelson Piquet father told us, many times he slept inside the car in last night before the race coz his team messed up his car to favor the number one, and he knows it, that is true it's not a joking. We saw last year Mclaren clearly favoring Hamilton over Alonso, why is so difficult for some too accept this?

actually, it is not...as far as i know, people here accepts the fact that there isn't really an "equal treatment" in a team. someone would be favored one way or another. it may not be as great as "messing up with the other's car" (which i really would have a hard time believing), but it is there.

however, as i would say, absence of proof is not proof of absence.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (somedamnwriter @ Apr 6 2008, 11:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>actually, it is not...as far as i know, people here accepts the fact that there isn't really an "equal treatment" in a team. someone would be favored one way or another. it may not be as great as "messing up with the other's car" (which i really would have a hard time believing), but it is there.

however, as i would say, absence of proof is not proof of absence.

I don't say Ferrari mess the cars directly, I say only that team's treatment with Felipe is totally crap compared to Kimi. Kimi's salary is 6 or 7 times Felipe's. Obviously they want Kimi with the crowd.

Every effort is for Kimi, only for him. In Ferrari's point of view, let Massa and his engineers playing alone on their own, but always focusing the championship.

There is much thing we don't know friend, Formula one is not as beautiful as it likes. Today it is different, but in the past, that histories of Nelson Piquet is true, he slep into the car many times to avoid someone messing it. And that happened a lot of times. Today they change the manner of messing, in a simple pit stop they can put a tire a little bit colder and resolve the race with ease. In Malaysia Massa's car was faster before the 1st pit. After the 1st pit stop - a pit stop totally favoring Kimi, 1.5 second faster than Massa's, enough to put Kimi in the 1st place - "magically" Massa's car lost performance and that was enough to keep the "champion" ahead and the "shield" in second. For sure Massa didn't couple with that and pushes hard to try the victory in a track that him was the fastest all the time.