Everybody go on record (Le Mans race spoilers)

Jumkie · May 17, 2011

Goatboy said:
So we are giving out penalties for falling off now, desperation.

Rossi taking out stoner was nothing short of a torpedo. That he was on the ground when he made contact with Stone while already on ground is PROOF positive he was out of control. That is by far worse than Sic, who thought he had cleared Pedro. But we both know a penalty would never be issued to Rossi. If an out if control dangerious rider is the cause for a penalty, Rossi deserved one before Sic. Its only dumb luck Stoner didnt get hurt. If Rossis torpedo doesnt deserve a penalty, nothing does. Sic's penalty was overreach and overreaction, and i hav no doubt part of the equation in the mind of Butler was his power to get riders eliminated from Rossis way, that is, while he ignored the yellow flag passing. The man can multi task.

Goatboy · May 17, 2011

Jumkie said:
Rossi taking out stoner was nothing short of a torpedo. That he was on the ground when he made contact with Stone while already on ground is PROOF positive he was out of control.

ptk50 · May 17, 2011

Jumkie said:
Rossi taking out stoner was nothing short of a torpedo. That he was on the ground when he made contact with Stone while already on ground is PROOF positive he was out of control. That is by far worse than Sic, who thought he had cleared Pedro. But we both know a penalty would never be issued to Rossi. If an out if control dangerious rider is the cause for a penalty, Rossi deserved one before Sic. Its only dumb luck Stoner didnt get hurt. If Rossis torpedo doesnt deserve a penalty, nothing does. Sic's penalty was overreach and overreaction, and i hav no doubt part of the equation in the mind of Butler was his power to get riders eliminated from Rossis way, that is, while he ignored the yellow flag passing. The man can multi task.

Yes and Rossi gained an unfair advantage by crashing, taking out Stoner and managing to restart his bike, staying on it for the rest of the race during which a lot more riders crashed. He probably had this planned since Thursday before the race - Jumkie, pls get real - it's about racing - not follow the leader

ptk50 · May 17, 2011

michaelm said:
My premise was based on valentino continuing to improve the ducati, which I think is likely, and the yamaha not improving much, which I also think is likely. Dovi won't beat stoner in a straight fight, whereas if valentino can improve the ducati even I would concede he possibly could. Simoncelli obviously has the advantage of being on the same bike as stoner, and could also possibly beat him in a straight fight in a single race , but not imo consistently, and is already well behind rossi let alone stoner, with a record of 5th, dnf, dnf and fifth; his last result could easily have been 2nd or less likely 1st, but could also quite easily have been another dnf.

I would be very happy if you are right. If I get into the yellow haze I can see Rossi eventually getting in front of Dovi. If Simo learns to control himself and develops a bit of racecraft he would be too fast for Rossi to beat - then again as you point out he has a habit of being his own worst enemy - so we'll see. Rossi coming in before Stoner, then CS wil need to get sick again, crash or something - I'd love to see VR infront of him, but won't be holding my breath this season. Lollo having to eat .... and follow Rossi to the finish - that I see happening in a lot more than one race. Getting back to the thread it's a real pisser that Pedro is out of the running for now and probably the season - a dnf plus a dns (LeMans/ Spain) will be hard to recover from

Tom · May 17, 2011

Just read Simoncelli's comments, he seems to be under the imression that Dani let of the brakes, i'd like this to be comfirmed or denied from a credible source. Kropo can you help???? Either way, the more i think about it the more i think Simoncelli has been incredibly hard done done by. He was definitely more at fault that Dani and he was definitely being very/too aggressive, but i don't think he deserved a penalty

Jumkie · May 17, 2011

Tom said:
Just read Simoncelli's comments, he seems to be under the imression that Dani let of the brakes, i'd like this to be comfirmed or denied from a credible source. Kropo can you help???? Either way, the more i think about it the more i think Simoncelli has been incredibly hard done done by. He was definitely more at fault that Dani and he was definitely being very/too aggressive, but i don't think he deserved a penalty

Well at least you are consistent. I don't think you've ever called for a penalty. I think it was a .... move, but I could argue it was within the aggressive racing that has been allowed. And this, on the heels just the week prior of the man with the gavel saying "motorcycle racing is a contact sport". If issuing a penalty for at very least a debatable move isn't suspect and hypocritical, I don;t know what is. Simochelli got tossed because Lorenzo and co complained. Which is hilarious because the one incident he brought up (Valencia), he was actually the aggressive reckless rider.

Race direction suck. Butler's retirement can't come to soon. I wonder who will replace him?

Jumkie · May 17, 2011

ptk50 said:
Yes and Rossi gained an unfair advantage by crashing, taking out Stoner and managing to restart his bike, staying on it for the rest of the race during which a lot more riders crashed.

So if Simochelli had gone down, no penalty would have been appropriate? So you are basing the relevance of the penalty on the disposition of the perpetrator? So a robber comes into my house, steals ...., then runs down the street but drops all the stolen ...., he is no longer a criminal? Why, please, take your time, try to explain your logic?

Tom · May 17, 2011

Jumkie said:
Well at least you are consistent. I don't think you've ever called for a penalty. I think it was a .... move, but I could argue it was within the aggressive racing that has been allowed. And this, on the heels just the week prior of the man with the gavel saying "motorcycle racing is a contact sport". If issuing a penalty for at very least a debatable move isn't suspect and hypocritical, I don;t know what is. Simochelli got tossed because Lorenzo and co complained. Which is hilarious because the one incident he brought up (Valencia), he was actually the aggressive reckless rider.

Race direction suck. Butler's retirement can't come to soon. I wonder who will replace him?

I agree Marco got penalised because he's been taking heat from the other riders, i don't think that is right. I know i am generally not keen for penalties, i just don't like to see races interfeared with wherever possible, at very least they could have given him a formal warning or something after the race having spoken to both riders and looked at the data. Above all else they need to be consistent, which so far they have not been close to.

michaelm · May 17, 2011

ptk50 said:
I would be very happy if you are right. If I get into the yellow haze I can see Rossi eventually getting in front of Dovi. If Simo learns to control himself and develops a bit of racecraft he would be too fast for Rossi to beat - then again as you point out he has a habit of being his own worst enemy - so we'll see. Rossi coming in before Stoner, then CS wil need to get sick again, crash or something - I'd love to see VR infront of him, but won't be holding my breath this season. Lollo having to eat .... and follow Rossi to the finish - that I see happening in a lot more than one race. Getting back to the thread it's a real pisser that Pedro is out of the running for now and probably the season - a dnf plus a dns (LeMans/ Spain) will be hard to recover from

I agree, pedrosa was the one, particularly with his new found late race pace as demonstrated at estoril. His fragility is a problem which may be insoluble though, every time he comes off he seems to break something, obviously regardless of whether it is due to an error of his or not.

michaelm · May 17, 2011

double

ptk50 · May 18, 2011

Jumkie said:
So if Simochelli had gone down, no penalty would have been appropriate? So you are basing the relevance of the penalty on the disposition of the perpetrator? So a robber comes into my house, steals ...., then runs down the street but drops all the stolen ...., he is no longer a criminal? Why, please, take your time, try to explain your logic?

With this: "Yes and Rossi gained an unfair advantage by crashing" - I should have added some of these

- there were easier ways for him to come in 5th or possibly better - without laying down the bike and having to restart.

Unlike you and a # of other participants I don't believe that either Rossi or Simo did anything wrong - so your analogy with perpertrators, robbers et al - isn't something I can empathize with or will comment on. We simply see this differently - for me - neither of them perpetrated anything unlawful - aka against the rules of the sport - and do not fit into your category of (sport) criminals

J4rn0 · May 18, 2011

Schwantz's take on the Le Mans drama, here at Superbike planet:

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2011/May/11051734x34=lemans.htm

ptk50 · May 18, 2011

J4rn0 said:
Schwantz's take on the Le Mans drama, here at Superbike planet:

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2011/May/11051734x34=lemans.htm

Well I guess if the Simo bashers take the time to read that - they may become a bit less damning in their armchair judgement of his riding. But then that probably won't stop Saint Lollo Forked Tongue from passing judgement and condemning anyone he sees as a challenge to retaining his #1 monogram - which CS is going to take away from him anyway this season.

beefsupreme · May 18, 2011

ptk50 said:
Well I guess if the Simo bashers take the time to read that - they may become a bit less damning in their armchair judgement of his riding.

I still think he screwed up.

@DennisNoyes

Talked to Wayne Rainey and he believes M caused it and could have brought himself down because he gave Dani no room..like he was invisible" ... Kevin thought the pass was very, very hard but OK ... Wayne called me later and said that without a doubt Sic didn't leave enough room and when you pass on the outside you always have to leave more ... Then he asked me Kevin's opinion, and when I told him it was the opposite, with a sigh of relief said ... "good thing because if he agreed with me I'd have to reconsider my opinion"

Also:

bigbang said:
Gardner's view on the Pedrosa Simoncelli accident:

http://www.waynegardnerapproved.com...nt&view=category&layout=blog&id=62&Itemid=511

J4rn0 · May 18, 2011

I appreciate Schwantz comment, still I think it was mainly Sic's fault because he was in position to wait, no need to rush it in that risky way, especially if Pedrosa as he says was going ballistic.

Now I do not remember if Pedrosa was punished or formally reprimanded for the 2006 episode with Hayden?

michaelm · May 19, 2011

J4rn0 said:
I appreciate Schwantz comment, still I think it was mainly Sic's fault because he was in position to wait, no need to rush it in that risky way, especially if Pedrosa as he says was going ballistic.

On the other hand whilst attempting to immediately re-pass is the racer thing to do,and something he has been trenchantly criticised for not doing in the past, pedrosa might have done better to tag behind marco as he did lorenzo at estoril and wait to see who had the best tyres and most fuel later in the race. Marco had caught him quickly and initially passed him cleanly and fairly easily, was running closer to stoner's times than dani was able to or had chosen to, and dani had mainly caught back up on the straight where he possibly does have some advantage and it equally applies to his decison to contest the corner that he appeared likely to be re-passed in a few corners as you say.

alex29 · May 19, 2011

There's a difference between a hard pass and a stupid pass. Thing is simmo clearly had the speed he just needs learn the art of patience. .. . . .

Keshav · May 19, 2011

J4rn0 said:
I appreciate Schwantz comment, still I think it was mainly Sic's fault because he was in position to wait, no need to rush it in that risky way, especially if Pedrosa as he says was going ballistic.

Now I do not remember if Pedrosa was punished or formally reprimanded for the 2006 episode with Hayden?

Come to think of it - and I'm surprised Jum hasn't said as much - this recent event could easily be viewed as Dani's karmic payback

for 2006.

That said, the two events and two riders cannot be compared as the 2006 crash with Pedrosa and Hayden was an isolated event.

Whereas.... Simoncelli has been a habitual offender, and don't start telling us how we all have some kind of bizarre, unfounded predjudice against Simoncelli. Riders from all nations have been complaining about him for years. He's an unrepentant neanderthal.

Keshav · May 19, 2011

michaelm said:
On the other hand whilst attempting to immediately re-pass is the racer thing to do,and something he has been trenchantly criticised for not doing in the past, pedrosa might have done better to tag behind marco as he did lorenzo at estoril and wait to see who had the best tyres and most fuel later in the race. Marco had caught him quickly and initially passed him cleanly and fairly easily, was running closer to stoner's times than dani was able to or had chosen to, and dani had mainly caught back up on the straight where he possibly does have some advantage and it equally applies to his decison to contest the corner that he appeared likely to be re-passed in a few corners as you say.

At some level - I wouldn't be surprised if a determining factor in Dani's reaction to Simoncelli - was all the criticism of his perceived inability or unwillingness to dice it out with other riders. Personally, I've thought that Dani has been scrappier than in years past.

Arrabbiata1 · May 19, 2011

Badfish said:
There's a difference between a hard pass and a stupid pass. Thing is simmo clearly had the speed he just needs learn the art of patience. .. . . .

Which is precisely why Vale's moves at Jerez and Laguna '08 were so un-rossiesque in their nature. Valentino has with a few exceptions always been the master of stalking his prey and either pouncing when the time is right meaning his passes are generally measured and above all safe, or inducing unforced errors simply by the other riding seeing 'Rossi 0 secs' on their pitboard.

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Everybody go on record (Le Mans race spoilers)

Simoncelli vs Pedrosa

Marco was out of order, a penalty was the right decision

Marco's riding was too much, but the penalty was likely a result of Marco's reputation more than his

Penalty not deserved

Not sure, more info required (telemetry etc)

Jumkie

Goatboy

ptk50

ptk50

Tom

Jumkie

Jumkie

Tom

michaelm

michaelm

ptk50

J4rn0

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J4rn0

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alex29

Keshav

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