Estoril 2011 Race

bigbang · May 2, 2011

J4rn0 said:
Now, Lorenzo has crashed more wildly and also more seriously than Sic before he earned his place among the 'Gods', and I didn't hear this kind of talk. Simoncelli is a great talent, he will learn soon how to avoid these mistakes with the cold tires, just as Lorenzo did. Iannone is another great talent and he will show it more and more... Mark my words, see you one year down the line.

There is a fundamental difference, yes Lorenzo was crashing but in his first MotoGP year he also won 1 race, was second 3 times and third 2 times. He also scored 4 pole positions. Simoncelli is in his second year and so far has zero victories, zero podiums and zero pole positions. "J4rn0" seems you are a big Simoncelli fanboy and that's fine but please be objective and admit Lorenzo is on another level.

renjith_varma · May 2, 2011

bigbang said:
There is a fundamental difference, yes Lorenzo was crashing but in his first MotoGP year he also won 1 race, was second 3 times and third 2 times. He also scored 4 pole positions. Simoncelli is in his second year and so far has zero victories, zero podiums and zero pole positions. "J4rn0" seems you are a big Simoncelli fanboy and that's fine but please be objective and admit Lorenzo is on another level.

But Lorenzo joined a factory team as a rookie. Sic has got the factory support just now. So you're comparing apples to oranges

bigbang · May 2, 2011

Renjith said:
But Lorenzo joined a factory team as a rookie. Sic has got the factory support just now. So you're comparing apples to oranges

ok even if you put that way Lorenzo still did a much better job because in his first 3 races in 2008 he had 1 win, 1 third and 3 poles (and unlike Lorenzo in 2008 Sic has already had 1 full season of MotoGP already).

Arrabbiata1 · May 2, 2011

Renjith said:
But Lorenzo joined a factory team as a rookie. Sic has got the factory support just now. So you're comparing apples to oranges

That Gresini Honda was a quasi-factory bike last year. My original point had to do with riding style not machinery, which Lorenzo had already tempered before his ascent to the premier class in '08. He had those monumental and unforgettable off's - unquestionably some of which were through over zealous throttle application on cold tyres (Laguna '08), but his style was in no way reminiscent of the Lorenzo you of old which J8rn0 refers to. Simoncelli if anything has got slightly wilder. I think he's fun to watch, but I can see why other riders are nervous around him.

renjith_varma · May 2, 2011

bigbang said:
ok even if you put that way Lorenzo still did a much better job because in his first 3 races in 2008 he had 1 win, 1 third and 3 poles (and unlike Lorenzo in 2008 Sic has already had 1 full season of MotoGP already).

Agree. But compare him to Spies who has the same experience in MotoGp as well as factory team and you can see how he is outperforming Spies

bigbang · May 2, 2011

Renjith said:
Agree. But compare him to Spies who has the same experience in MotoGp as well as factory team and you can see how he is outperforming Spies

You are forgetting that Honda is clearly the fastest bike this year.

renjith_varma · May 2, 2011

Arrabbiata1 said:
That Gresini Honda was a quasi-factory bike last year. My original point had to do with riding style not machinery, which Lorenzo had already tempered before his ascent to the premier class in '08. He had those monumental and unforgettable off's - unquestionably some of which were through over zealous throttle application on cold tyres (Laguna '08), but his style was in no way reminiscent of the Lorenzo you of old which J8rn0 refers to. Simoncelli if anything has got slightly wilder. I think he's fun to watch, but I can see why other riders are nervous around him.

Arrabi,

I was replying to bigbangs comparison of their achievements in their rookie years. I agree with most of your post, but I feel he hasn't gone wilder. The stuff he pulled on Barbera in 2008 Mugello(?) is way more crazy & dangerous than anything he has done in MotoGP

J4rn0 · May 2, 2011

bigbang said:
There is a fundamental difference, yes Lorenzo was crashing but in his first MotoGP year he also won 1 race, was second 3 times and third 2 times. He also scored 4 pole positions. Simoncelli is in his second year and so far has zero victories, zero podiums and zero pole positions. "J4rn0" seems you are a big Simoncelli fanboy and that's fine but please be objective and admit Lorenzo is on another level.

The difference in results does not change the 'danger' invovled in crashing, which is what we have been discussing.

Sic is not inferior to Lorenzo... he learns a little more slowly, but he's almost there (already faster than most of them on a single lap) and when he learns to make it a bit smoother he will be a hard nut to crack for all the 'aliens', Rossi included.

I am not a fan of anybody. I have my judgement about the value of riders, so there are some that I consider better than others. That's all.

Arrabbiata1 · May 2, 2011

J4rn0 said:
The difference in results does not change the 'danger' invovled in crashing, which is what we have been discussing.

Sic is not inferior to Lorenzo... he learns a little more slowly, but he's almost there (already faster than most of them on a single lap) and when he learns to make it a bit smoother he will be a hard nut to crack for all the 'aliens', Rossi included.

I am not a fan of anybody. I have my judgement about the value of riders, so there are some that I consider better than others. That's all.

bigbang · May 2, 2011

J4rn0 said:
Sic is not inferior to Lorenzo... he learns a little more slowly, but he's almost there (already faster than most of them on a single lap) and when he learns to make it a bit smoother he will be a hard nut to crack for all the 'aliens', Rossi included.

Dream on.

ptk50 · May 2, 2011

Keshav said:
Says the prince of ad hominem posts.

That's rich coming from you - the self proclaimed queen of universal knowledge

In this case you really just don't understand the difference between ad hominem and straight forward pragmatism - like I said there is no point in trying to logically argue or reason with you

Pigeon · May 2, 2011

this about sums it up on the weekends complaints from SOME Riders

birtymotogp.....I asked Valentino Rossi tonight about complaints about Simoncelli's aggressive riding and he said young riders now are '.......'

Keshav · May 2, 2011

Renjith said:
But Lorenzo joined a factory team as a rookie. Sic has got the factory support just now. So you're comparing apples to oranges

Historically, Simocelli was a wildman and inveterate crasher when he had a full factory ride in the 250 class. These are his inherent qualities

- which are not attributable to the equipment he's riding.

Talpa · May 2, 2011

Pigeon said:
this about sums it up on the weekends complaints from SOME Riders

birtymotogp.....I asked Valentino Rossi tonight about complaints about Simoncelli's aggressive riding and he said young riders now are '.......'

For the most part this is definitely true, put a Schwantz or Doohan, Bayliss or Haga into this mix and some of them would retire early!

However, it could also be argued that these 800's make it very difficult to approach a race weekend, with SOOOO much pressure on electronics set-up, to win a near perfect race must be run, no longer can they afford to have 'battles' with a great number of passes at the sharp end, for more than ever it will lead to someone else having greater pace (and more fuel) left to go on and win.

A lot of riders have been quoted as saying that being held up in the opening laps now creates an impossible situation for victory. All of this anti-racing/dangerous riders mindset has been created in the 800cc era, and IMO the bikes have a lot to do with it, maybe they aren't just scared of racing, but more importantly racing which effectively removes their ability to win........

Mental Anarchist · May 2, 2011

Pigeon said:
birtymotogp.....I asked Valentino Rossi tonight about complaints about Simoncelli's aggressive riding and he said young riders now are '.......'

Looking at the young riders in question many of them have had some very significant crashes which have resulted in serious injuries. Yet for the most part they get back on and get on with it. Pedrosa this weekend just past for example. Yet the one calling them ....... has bitched and moaned about his injury for the best part of 12mths giving us a running commentary on how much time it costs him in every session. He also continues to whinge about how aggressive his bike is and wants the whole thing calmed down so he can ride it yet one of these '.......' was able to wrestle and 'man' handle it to more wins than any other rider. History also suggests that EVERY time a rider puts an aggressive move on him he has bitched like no other. I wouldn't necessarily call him a ..... but prima donna, absolutely. I can understand why he needs to put them down though because it seems he is unable to do it on the track at the moment so he must do it off the track.

Keshav · May 2, 2011

[quote name='ptk50' timestamp='1304358682' post='277403']

That's rich coming from you - the self proclaimed queen of universal knowledge

In this case you really just don't understand the difference between ad hominem and straight forward pragmatism - like I said there is no point in trying to logically argue or reason with you

[/quote

How can you know without ever having tried? Ask me pragmatic questions without the sophomoric snarky asides

and juvenile insults and you will find I reply in kind. There are lots of folks on this forum who I regularly debate

and strongly disagree with - and we still manage to be quite civil to each other. Really... try it some time.

Mental Anarchist · May 2, 2011

Talpa said:
For the most part this is definitely true, put a Schwantz or Doohan, Bayliss or Haga into this mix and some of them would retire early!

However, it could also be argued that these 800's make it very difficult to approach a race weekend, with SOOOO much pressure on electronics set-up, to win a near perfect race must be run, no longer can they afford to have 'battles' with a great number of passes at the sharp end, for more than ever it will lead to someone else having greater pace (and more fuel) left to go on and win.

A lot of riders have been quoted as saying that being held up in the opening laps now creates an impossible situation for victory. All of this anti-racing/dangerous riders mindset has been created in the 800cc era, and IMO the bikes have a lot to do with it, maybe they aren't just scared of racing, but more importantly racing which effectively removes their ability to win........

Wow, something from Talpa I can agree with. That makes 3 times now.

However I doubt Schwantz, Doohan, Bayliss or Haga could run with these guys anyway. I am sure you will agree considering these young guys are all running faster than Rossi and have taken championships off him then it would suggest that if Rossi was running against Schwantz etc he would probably not have his 7 WC's and therefore not be the GOAT.

Keshav · May 2, 2011

Mental Anarchist said:
Looking at the young riders in question many of them have had some very significant crashes which have resulted in serious injuries. Yet for the most part they get back on and get on with it. Pedrosa this weekend just past for example. Yet the one calling them ....... has bitched and moaned about his injury for the best part of 12mths giving us a running commentary on how much time it costs him in every session. He also continues to whinge about how aggressive his bike is and wants the whole thing calmed down so he can ride it yet one of these '.......' was able to wrestle and 'man' handle it to more wins than any other rider. History also suggests that EVERY time a rider puts an aggressive move on him he has bitched like no other. I wouldn't necessarily call him a ..... but prima donna, absolutely. I can understand why he needs to put them down though because it seems he is unable to do it on the track at the moment so he must do it off the track.

It's only early May and yer already bucking for post of the month.

Austin · May 2, 2011

Mental Anarchist said:
However I doubt Schwantz, Doohan, Bayliss or Haga could run with these guys anyway. I am sure you will agree considering these young guys are all running faster than Rossi and have taken championships off him then it would suggest that if Rossi was running against Schwantz etc he would probably not have his 7 WC's and therefore not be the GOAT.

It's impossible to compare different eras, but I disagree.

Nino · May 2, 2011

BarryMachine said:
Oh gee what a surprise!!! Nino and Rossiofsky having a gripe about Stoner ........ wah wah wah ....

broken record fellows

Fancy that!! Casey and Lorenzo are saying something about a rider who they well thought could do this:

at a most dangerous tim ( seems how its spelled these days ).

Dear O deary me

They just have no respect do they, unlike Rossi and Simoncellii who even went out of their ways to entertain Stoner and Lorenzo with trapese ( or Italian Airforce ) acts.

As JL said ...... " these aren't minibikes" ......

Stoner and Lorenzo seem to expect everyone to quietly follow and not attempt an overtake. Once they do get overtaken, they start getting precious talking about safety forgetting the numerous crashes both have had during their careers. It's just luck that Stoner didn't take someone out with one of his many crashes last year.

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