This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Estoril 2011 Race

Bridgestone pleased to see lap records fall



Granted, that story is two years old -- anyone have more recent statistics (for race laps of course, not qualifying)? Seems to me it would be hard to argue that there hasn't been development without at least providing some statistics to back it up.



I don't think you can lay processional racing at the feet of the control tire so much as the reduced capacity, fuel limits, and most important the increasingly sophistication electronics. I don't have any proof for that, but I'm biased in that I like to see motorcycle racing be a contest between men and machines, not tires. I love that the control tire means we no longer have Michelin or Bridgestone tracks, and more importantly, that we don't have "A" rubber and "B" rubber -- the factory riders and the satellite riders get equal tires now.



With regards to the lap records they continue to be broken, but this is a result of the full bike package, not just tyres as the modern 800cc machine is carrying far higher corner speeds. Yes this is no doubt allowed or assisted by the tyres but IMO the development of tyres would be far greater were we still in a multiple tyre supplier era.



By the way, who is laying the blame for processional racing at the feet of the tyres ........................ if anything is a side effect of a number of contributing factors of which tyres are just one of these factors.



With regards to your point about the 'brand tracks', well is it any different to Honda tracks, Ducati tracks etc?



What about hard or soft tyre tracks?



I personally had no issue in the old era where the circus visited a track that was predominantly a Michelin track and we would see a Bridgestone runner mixing it with the Michelin runners , and vice versa. To me this is and was part of the theatre of the racing and in all reality is just part and parcel of everyday racing.











Gaz
 
How can a select few have an advantage when everyone's on the same tires? Granted, some riders may take to the Bridgestones better than others, but then that would be true of a control motorcycle as well. The advantage lies in the rider and the team's ability to exploit available equipment.



I'm probably in the minority, but I'd rather not see any passes for the last 1/3 of a race than see positions determined by which tire company made the best gamble on durability. As it is, there's passing, though not as much as there was with the 990s, that's for sure.



Firstly welcome Beef......





Secondly, the problems that some of the top guys are having is getting enough heat into these compounds to compete, due to their opposing styles and bikes, as this is a 'prototype series' then a more bespoke approach must be considered, otherwise we are looking at World superbikes. The philosophy of 'being able to exploit' available equipment is of course a very good one, until you consider the fact that we are suppose to be watching the best riders on the planet, on the best equipment of the planet, tailored to their requirements. At present Motogp's constant regs and the spec tyre rule have changed the philosophy of the series to something that could be considered more like the local derby......heres what we've got go out and race.........



Now, as Austin and I have already discussed, this K mart tyre supply is IMO adding far more problems and cost to the teams, directly opposed to the idea that the spec tyre would save money, I'm sure it has-for Bridgestone
<


My reasoning for this is the increased demands on teams and machinery/electronics to compete on spec rubber, when in the past so many set-up issues were negated by a tyre suited to the needs of the individual, whether it be made overnight or available in the range.



So in essence a rider has an advantage on these spec tyres i.e Jorge-full kudos to him and his team as they have got it working best with the spec rubber, so how now do the others catch up?



- Change riding style to be more like Jorge? No one wants to see this as it removes the true nature of individual competition, and makes the progression from other SBK based series virtually impossible, essentially creating a very specific type of successful riding style, I doubt anyone wants to see this. I want to see Casey ride like Casey, and Rossi ride like Rossi etc.



- Spend .... loads more money to try to combat the issues? Which is what is happening- And well this is against the philosophy of Spec tyre=fairer competition in the first place. The problem is that electronics engineers are making the difference, as they are starting to in WSBK as well.



- Or make the tyre supplier include some more compounds so as more riders can benefit from the range. Potentially bringing the racing closer, and making the competition fairer and reducing teams cost whilst adding to Bridgestones. This option should have already happened, yet it hasn't.



A good reason as to why you are not seeing any passes in the last third of the race nowadays is the incredible durability of the rubber, making it far easier to manage a race, albeit flat out all the way whilst letting the ECU dictate proceedings, but still some would consider this far easier than trying to manage then win on worn tires, and much less in the spirit of competition.......
 
With regards to your point about the 'brand tracks', well is it any different to Honda tracks, Ducati tracks etc?

I'm OK with Honda or Ducati tracks (or Stoner or Lorenzo tracks) because I find diversity of motorcycle manufacturers interesting. I can't say I find rubber diversity interesting -- I'm a philistine that way.
 
I'm OK with Honda or Ducati tracks (or Stoner or Lorenzo tracks) because I find diversity of motorcycle manufacturers interesting. I can't say I find rubber diversity interesting -- I'm a philistine that way.



I am an Aussie, please do not use big words in this way ................. it confuses me badly
<




Nah, all good, I just like full diversity and love the idea of open slather racing at this level (I will however fully support that many classes work well with single supplier).











Gaz
 
I'm OK with Honda or Ducati tracks (or Stoner or Lorenzo tracks) because I find diversity of motorcycle manufacturers interesting. I can't say I find rubber diversity interesting -- I'm a philistine that way.



I have the same feelings. 'Rubber' is not something that should matter so much compared to rest of the actual package, engine, frame, rider. But it matters to the point that Tamada was able to beat all the big names of MotoGP in a couple of races, only because he had Bridgestone tires that proves unbeatable at those two tracks, at that time. The performance difference a tire can make is just too big compared to all the other factors. So the idea behind a control tire is right -- taking out a variable that makes too much difference.



Or, as I said ages ago when we were debating the control tire, allow free market: no manufacturer should be tied to one tire supplier by contract, but should be free to buy the best tires on the market. That way we could have competition without penalizing teams that might find themselves tied by contract to a lousy tire supplier, losing one or more seasons only because of that.
 
I have the same feelings. 'Rubber' is not something that should matter so much compared to rest of the actual package, engine, frame, rider. But it matters to the point that Tamada was able to beat all the big names of MotoGP in a couple of races, only because he had Bridgestone tires that proves unbeatable at those two tracks, at that time. The performance difference a tire can make is just too big compared to all the other factors. So the idea behind a control tire is right -- taking out a variable that makes too much difference.



Or, as I said ages ago when we were debating the control tire, allow free market: no manufacturer should be tied to one tire supplier by contract, but should be free to buy the best tires on the market. That way we could have competition without penalizing teams that might find themselves tied by contract to a lousy tire supplier, losing one or more seasons only because of that.

That would be interesting, just have all tire companies set up shop with a set allotment of tires for the weekend, after FP1, the line in front of the fastest tire would like the floor at the New York Stock Exchange. Highest bidder wins.
<
 
But it matters to the point that Tamada was able to beat all the big names of MotoGP in a couple of races, only because he had Bridgestone tires that proves unbeatable at those two tracks, at that time.

I was surprised and amused when Suppo admitted as much a few years ago:

... at this level, as I said before, with the level of the championship so difficult, one other strategy could be to win - to increase the possibility to win, is to have something different from the main competitors. And the main competitors, of course, is Valentino and all the Hondas. And of course, all of them are on Michelin. So we felt that if you can do differentiation on the tires, you can get an advantage.
 



Yup. Indeed Suppo's reasoning was right except for the fact that as soon as you get any advantage, the competition will be immediately trying to get the same thing. Ferociously. So it is clearly the fault of Ducati if now all bikes are on Bridgestones tires, and again it is their fault if all 800s have mandatory pneumatic valve control systems... Aaaaaaand it is their fault if Honda has taken Stoner from them!
laugh.gif






It's clearly Ducati's fault. They should be banned.
wink.gif
 
I have the same feelings. 'Rubber' is not something that should matter so much compared to rest of the actual package, engine, frame, rider.



Tyres are the single most important component of a motorcycle, its ridiculous to control them especially when it fails to eliminate the inequalities that were seen as problematic previously.
 
Tyres are the single most important component of a motorcycle, its ridiculous to control them especially when it fails to eliminate the inequalities that were seen as problematic previously.



If you read the rest of the post, I said that it would be better to have free market. But if there cannot be a free market, then a control tire is better than the previous situation in which those who were stuck with a losing tire were cancelled from the competition for an entire season or more.



Unless there is also a title for best tire -- just as there is best manufacturer, best team, and best rider. That could be an idea... Tire manufacturers should then act as manufacturers -- put together their own team, hire riders, assemble a bike with all those secondary parts to add to their 'most important component' to obtain a winning racing motorcycle...
wink.gif




I'm kidding of course, just to show that it is not so easy, the 'tire competition' in a credible way. So a control tire is the lesser evil.

But this is the same old debate we had in 2008...
smile.gif
 
then a control tire is better than the previous situation in which those who were stuck with a losing tire were cancelled from the competition for an entire season or more.



But that problem isn't remedied all that successfuly when certain riders/bikes that do not opperate well with the control tyre are consigned to lose indefinitely, its fair because everyone gets the same, but its not equal because the most significant component cannot be tuned to suit riders or bikes.
 
But that problem isn't remedied all that successfuly when certain riders/bikes that do not opperate well with the control tyre are consigned to lose indefinitely, its fair because everyone gets the same, but its not equal because the most significant component cannot be tuned to suit riders or bikes.

Elias being the prime example of the control tire victim, it's a little hard to get too worked up about it because he was always so inconsistent in the premier class. It's not like he was doing decently in MotoGP, the control tire appeared, and his results dropped dramatically.
 
Hey everybody, glad to be back after a looonngg absence. Recently dloaded the first three rounds so i could catch up for the season. Qatar was awesome... Stoner, new favorite rider (.... you Hayden for snubbing me at indy twice last year...), he's got so much potential on the Honda imo. That second race in jerez was looking to be an incredible one, until all the crashes... bad form on the marshalls for not helping casey try to push his bike back on the track. Simoncelli (as well as all the riders honestly) is really impressing me (I can remember from the races i watched last season that you had about six contenders and then a bunch of other guys, or at least that's what it felt like to me), but even hiroshi looks more confident out there and like the off-season permitted for a great deal of practicing and improvement. So after qatar, i was expecting a really competitive season. that vibe seemed to tail of after the stoner/rossi crash.



As for estoril, such a shame simoncelli went down, was looking forward to him being in there. I was expecting a little more from spies. But very well done for pedrosa - so smart to just pace himself with jorge and wait til later so there'd be fewer laps left to make an error in. Shame casey couldn't fill that gap. Oh well.



Also, 2012 is allowing 1000cc engines... is BMW finally gonna get something i there? I read a little about this Suter guy fronting a team, being a beamer fan, it'd be nice to see it out there (mind you, i haven't even watched WSBK in a year so i don't even know how the bike is doing, hehe)
 
Hey everybody, glad to be back after a looonngg absence. Recently dloaded the first three rounds so i could catch up for the season. Qatar was awesome... Stoner, new favorite rider (.... you Hayden for snubbing me at indy twice last year...), he's got so much potential on the Honda imo. That second race in jerez was looking to be an incredible one, until all the crashes... bad form on the marshalls for not helping casey try to push his bike back on the track. Simoncelli (as well as all the riders honestly) is really impressing me (I can remember from the races i watched last season that you had about six contenders and then a bunch of other guys, or at least that's what it felt like to me), but even hiroshi looks more confident out there and like the off-season permitted for a great deal of practicing and improvement. So after qatar, i was expecting a really competitive season. that vibe seemed to tail of after the stoner/rossi crash.



As for estoril, such a shame simoncelli went down, was looking forward to him being in there. I was expecting a little more from spies. But very well done for pedrosa - so smart to just pace himself with jorge and wait til later so there'd be fewer laps left to make an error in. Shame casey couldn't fill that gap. Oh well.



Also, 2012 is allowing 1000cc engines... is BMW finally gonna get something i there? I read a little about this Suter guy fronting a team, being a beamer fan, it'd be nice to see it out there (mind you, i haven't even watched WSBK in a year so i don't even know how the bike is doing, hehe)

From what I hear, Argyll might be running the effort
<
(or perhaps ruining would be a better word)



Good to see you back on here Mike - I'll email you this weekend about the book
 
But that problem isn't remedied all that successfuly when certain riders/bikes that do not opperate well with the control tyre are consigned to lose indefinitely, its fair because everyone gets the same, but its not equal because the most significant component cannot be tuned to suit riders or bikes.



Right. I think you refer to Suzuki, and among riders to Elias -- that's why the control tire is not a good solution, but just the lesser evil.
 
Right. I think you refer to Suzuki, and among riders to Elias -- that's why the control tire is not a good solution, but just the lesser evil.



I don't think it is a lesser evil, just a slightly different one. Personally i like it less
 
From what I hear, Argyll might be running the effort
<
(or perhaps ruining would be a better word)



Good to see you back on here Mike - I'll email you this weekend about the book



lol, yeah, Argyll... What a place.



Sounds good, great to be back, Mark! I look forward to seeing Stoner take Le Mans.