Engine restrictions ‘daunting’ says Jerry Burgess

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spooky @ Jan 12 2010, 03:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Tyre management cannot be compared to engine management, all riders are using Bridgestone tyres, noone gets specials or anything like that so theoretically there are no variables. The only way it could work for engines is for every team to be using a spec engine, ala moto 2, which defeats the purpose of the series in the 1st place.

I guess that point depends on how you feel about spec tyres. I think they are as in principle as bad as spec engines. How can you claim that spec engines defeat the purpose of the series while also claiming you don't want machinary to determine the results, that is a contradiction.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jan 12 2010, 03:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I guess that point depends on how you feel about spec tyres. I think they are as in principle as bad as spec engines. How can you claim that spec engines defeat the purpose of the series while also claiming you don't want machinary to determine the results, that is a contradiction.


Quite simple really, if Dorna decided to go for a spec engine, lots of manufacturers would leave. Its a prototype sport therefore the main emphasis is on the factories building the fastest bike, whats the point in building the fastest bike if it cant be ridden at its optimum? Just seems a bit daft to me.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spooky @ Jan 12 2010, 03:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Quite simple really, if Dorna decided to go for a spec engine, lots of manufacturers would leave. Its a prototype sport therefore the main emphasis is on the factories building the fastest bike, whats the point in building the fastest bike if it cant be ridden at its optimum? Just seems a bit daft to me.

Optimum is a relative term. previous to this engine rule the bike still had to finish the race! Its the same game it always has been, the goalposts are just a different width.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jan 12 2010, 09:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>If you really feel like this you are probably watching the wrong sport. Motorsports is inherently dependant on machinary, but bike racing is in a good position as the rider remains the most significant single influence on results.
Spellcheck is your friend.

Anyway, your point is completely irrelevant to my comment. I didn't say, as you suggest, that Motorsport is inherently independent of machinery. I'm saying that the delicate balance between machinery and rider needs to be kept in mind when considering the imposition of rules.

A six engine per season rule emboldens the influence of the bike. A mechanical problem becomes a much greater likelihood. The rider, as you indicate, is the most significant influence on results, obviously. But that is not satisfactory for me.

Finally, it's not for you to say whether or not I'm watching the right sport merely because I disagree with the machine/rider balance which you feel is ideal or correct. I've been watching this sport for a long, long time. I have personally tracked the balance slowly, but clearly, swing towards the importance of the machine. Clearly, as a Formula 1, you think the machine should be an extremely important factor. As a long-time motorcycle racing fan, I disagree.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jan 13 2010, 02:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I guess that point depends on how you feel about spec tyres. I think they are as in principle as bad as spec engines.
I disagree. It's really a manufacturer and riders' championship. The tyre battle was never really principally important for MotoGP.

Once you take away the role of the manufacturer in building arguably the key aspect of a bike(the engine), then it fails to be prototype racing. The manufacturers, then, aren't really in a battle. The most important part of the bike isn't even designed by the manufacturers.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RCV600RR @ Jan 16 2010, 07:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I disagree. It's really a manufacturer and riders' championship. The tyre battle was never really principally important for MotoGP.

Once you take away the role of the manufacturer in building arguably the key aspect of a bike(the engine), then it fails to be prototype racing. The manufacturers, then, aren't really in a battle. The most important part of the bike isn't even designed by the manufacturers.
(EDITED)I think your argument in principle as far as tyres are concerned is not unreasonable, although I am sorry that michelin are gone when they had such a long association with and seemed a natural fit for premier class gp bike racing, more so than energy drink companies and the like. I confess to not being entirely free of cynicism concerning the impetus for a control tyre appearing to come after one season where an unfashionable rider for a manufacturer other than yamaha or honda possibly had a tyre advantage, or at least a bike design dependent on a particular and perhaps somewhat arcane tyre, however .

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spooky @ Jan 12 2010, 03:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Tyre management cannot be compared to engine management, all riders are using Bridgestone tyres, noone gets specials or anything like that

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Tom @ Jan 13 2010, 01:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I guess that point depends on how you feel about spec tyres. I think they are as in principle as bad as spec engines. How can you claim that spec engines defeat the purpose of the series while also claiming you don't want machinary to determine the results, that is a contradiction.

Nailed it Tom, with the importance of the Black hoops in Motorcycle Racing, it is impossible to consider this prototype racing competition with a single tyre manufacture.......However Dorna may being seeing the light with recent changes for 2012........

IMO the engine number restriction rule will play a massive role in determining results this year, as it did at the end of last year.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Jan 18 2010, 03:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>IMO the engine number restriction rule will play a massive role in determining results this year, as it did at the end of last year.

Don't entirely disagree (have to stop this partial agreeing thing) but unlike last year the enging rule will affect from the first race and may well lead to some very interesting strategies (both race and practice) as the season develops.

Is it possible that we may see riders going beyond the 6 engine rule, risking the penalties in order to get the rewards or a 'full high tune' engine such as more power and probable subsequent higher placing?

For me, a retrograde step in the sport has again occurred





Gaz

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Jan 18 2010, 03:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Nailed it Tom, with the importance of the Black hoops in Motorcycle Racing, it is impossible to consider this prototype racing competition with a single tyre manufacture.......However Dorna may being seeing the light with recent changes for 2012........

IMO the engine number restriction rule will play a massive role in determining results this year, as it did at the end of last year.
I spoke with a Bridgestone engineer after the Sepang race last October and he claimed that Bridgestone will pull out of MotoGP after 2011 (ie the end of their current contract) so Dorna will have to think long and hard to get any kind of tyre competition back into MotoGP.

I think that this concept of limiting engines will do yet more damage to the series - last year it only really affected Suzuki IIRC, this year I have heard it stated that the Honda and the Duke engines will likely be the least susceptible to failure, but we will see. As others have pointed out, 6 engines for the whole season is a big step from last year. Bearing in mind that the series is to change to 1000cc in 2012, and that the manufacturers do not make 800s for the road, I fail to see how this rule reduces costs or aids development.

I believe we are likely to see changes to it during the season before it makes the WC more of a pure reliability contest than a racing one.

Will be interesting to see what kind of engine failures we will see. I suspect some of them will be material fatigue related and they tend to be quite spectacular as it typically result in con rods, valves and pistons flying around everywhere.
Wonder what a couple of those explosions at the end of the straights will do for the safety.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Jan 22 2010, 01:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I spoke with a Bridgestone engineer after the Sepang race last October and he claimed that Bridgestone will pull out of MotoGP after 2011 (ie the end of their current contract) so Dorna will have to think long and hard to get any kind of tyre competition back into MotoGP.

I think that this concept of limiting engines will do yet more damage to the series - last year it only really affected Suzuki IIRC, this year I have heard it stated that the Honda and the Duke engines will likely be the least susceptible to failure, but we will see. As others have pointed out, 6 engines for the whole season is a big step from last year. Bearing in mind that the series is to change to 1000cc in 2012, and that the manufacturers do not make 800s for the road, I fail to see how this rule reduces costs or aids development.

I believe we are likely to see changes to it during the season before it makes the WC more of a pure reliability contest than a racing one.

Wow, amazing what no competition does for Tyre companies, not surprising as BS don't seem to be actively translating their Motogp technology into our road tires as Michelin did, thus not really benefiting from the exposure of being the sole tyre supplier.

Very few riders I know use BS's at all, as, IMO, Pirelli, Dunlop and Michelin still provide better options for the road.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Jan 23 2010, 06:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Wow, amazing what no competition does for Tyre companies, not surprising as BS don't seem to be actively translating their Motogp technology into our road tires as Michelin did, thus not really benefiting from the exposure of being the sole tyre supplier.

Very few riders I know use BS's at all, as, IMO, Pirelli, Dunlop and Michelin still provide better options for the road.

Well, up here there are plenty of BS users and very happy ones too. Personally i only use used race tires, Pirelli/Metzler or Dunlop

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Jan 23 2010, 05:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Wow, amazing what no competition does for Tyre companies, not surprising as BS don't seem to be actively translating their Motogp technology into our road tires as Michelin did, thus not really benefiting from the exposure of being the sole tyre supplier.

Very few riders I know use BS's at all, as, IMO, Pirelli, Dunlop and Michelin still provide better options for the road.
No competition is the reason the guy I spoke to gave for BS quitting.

Bridgestone BT016 multicompound are excellent for the road and quite a lot of riders I know use them.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Jan 24 2010, 12:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>No competition is the reason the guy I spoke to gave for BS quitting.

Bridgestone BT016 multicompound are excellent for the road and quite a lot of riders I know use them.

Yes I agree, but I'm talking more about Michelin Power Race, Power One or 2CT, Pirelli SC-1 & 2 and the Dunlop Sportmax Gp-A, and the 016 doesn't quite have the multi-compound sorted like the Power Race/One or 2CT for the road.

But I'm sure BS could give us a tyre to compete with these above and probably better, not using the Motogp sole tyre supplier as marketing for new tyres and compounds for the road seems strange. As predicted it seems as though Tyre development will all but cease, and even more so if now they are pulling out.

Road riders are the ones that suffer through lack of competition in racing, especially with rubber.

Have to disagree. I ran the BS's last year and compared to the 2 sets of 2CT Michelin I had before they are far better in every aspect.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gsfan @ Jan 24 2010, 02:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Have to disagree. I ran the BS's last year and compared to the 2 sets of 2CT Michelin I had before they are far better in every aspect.

I did mention Power Race and Power One, plus Pirelli SC1 & 2 and Dunlop Sportmax GP-A, are you trying to tell me that the BS016's are better in every aspect to these? ......I doubt very much that they eclipse the even the 2CT's.

It seems your judgment on top performing Road/Trackday rubber is about as good as your judgment/support of top performing Motogp bikes, so I certainly won't be running out to replace my rubber with 016's!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Jan 24 2010, 05:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I did mention Power Race and Power One, plus Pirelli SC1 & 2 and Dunlop Sportmax GP-A, are you trying to tell me that the BS016's are better in every aspect to these? ......I doubt very much that they eclipse the even the 2CT's.

It seems your judgment on top performing Road/Trackday rubber is about as good as your judgment/support of top performing Motogp bikes, so I certainly won't be running out to replace my rubber with 016's!

Let me see, first some googling.....:
Power Race - does not exist, you might mean Power One (race)
Power One - meaningless without further specification. They come in slicks (SB), groved race(SS) and street configurations.
Pirelli SC1 and SC2 does not exist. SC1 and SC2 tell us about the softness of the compound. AFAIK that is only available on race tires. Today that would mean Diablo Supercorsa sc.
Bridgestone call their tires BT not BS
out of all these only Pilot Power 2CT are in direct competition with BT016.
To list up a long list of very different tires and challenge a singe tire to be better is meaningless. These tires are purpose built and as such have strong and weak sides.

BT-016 can be compared to Michelins Pilot Power 2CT while Pirelli don't have multi compond tires but Probably Diablo or Diablo Rosso are probably as close as you get.

BT-003 can be comapared to Pirelli's Diablo Supercorsa -SC for race and -SP for street and Michelin's Power One (race/Street) They are branded and look the same but they have important differences.
Power One (race) might be a good street tire too as the brag about extreamly short warm-up times in contrast to their previous SS tire, Pilot Power Race, as they where notoriously hard to warm up and have sent may riders out in the gravel or off road.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Talpa @ Jan 23 2010, 11:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I did mention Power Race and Power One, plus Pirelli SC1 & 2 and Dunlop Sportmax GP-A, are you trying to tell me that the BS016's are better in every aspect to these? ......I doubt very much that they eclipse the even the 2CT's.

It seems your judgment on top performing Road/Trackday rubber is about as good as your judgment/support of top performing Motogp bikes, so I certainly won't be running out to replace my rubber with 016's!

I've run just about every brand of tire on the market other than Pirelli. The BT's are the best by far. As good as the 2CT's were they lacked the same feel. With the BS's it's like you have your hand on the road.

And don't rag on me about Suzuki. They and Ducati were the teams that made Bridgestone so good. Rossi had to dump Michelin just to keep up.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Jan 24 2010, 08:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Let me see, first some googling.....:
Power Race - does not exist, you might mean Power One (race)
Power One - meaningless without further specification. They come in slicks (SB), groved race(SS) and street configurations.
Pirelli SC1 and SC2 does not exist. SC1 and SC2 tell us about the softness of the compound. AFAIK that is only available on race tires. Today that would mean Diablo Supercorsa sc.
Bridgestone call their tires BT not BS
out of all these only Pilot Power 2CT are in direct competition with BT016.
To list up a long list of very different tires and challenge a singe tire to be better is meaningless. These tires are purpose built and as such have strong and weak sides.

BT-016 can be compared to Michelins Pilot Power 2CT while Pirelli don't have multi compond tires but Probably Diablo or Diablo Rosso are probably as close as you get.

BT-003 can be comapared to Pirelli's Diablo Supercorsa -SC for race and -SP for street and Michelin's Power One (race/Street) They are branded and look the same but they have important differences.
Power One (race) might be a good street tire too as the brag about extreamly short warm-up times in contrast to their previous SS tire, Pilot Power Race, as they where notoriously hard to warm up and have sent may riders out in the gravel or off road.
Pirelli SC1-2 & 3 Compounds

http://www.us.pirelli.com/web/motorcycle/t.../default.page#9

I presume that Diablo Supercorsa didn't need to be mentioned, my mistake.....

Michelin Power One Race, replaced Power Race, However power race is still available in some countries, and is still a far better Tyre than the 016.

GSfan disagreed that BS (BRIDGESTONE) 016 was an inferior Tyre to the ones I mentioned, and actually said that the 016 was a better Tyre in every way, hence the discussion.