Ducati going traditional?

One thing I noticed from Leguna was Hayden saying he saw Rossi save the front of the duc a number of times with the knee. Ive seen it before from Rossi, but I cant remember seeing Stoner ever saving the duc with his knee. Apparently Stoner has front slides but saves it with the throttle. That technique is a completely different feel that pushing the front to the limit, wheels in line, so Rossi will never ride it as fast as Stoner could unless he gets a magic front tyre with more grip, or Stoner gets a real bad rear tyre to screw up his style. Sound familiar?

birdman said:

One thing I noticed from Leguna was Hayden saying he saw Rossi save the front of the duc a number of times with the knee. Ive seen it before from Rossi, but I cant remember seeing Stoner ever saving the duc with his knee. Apparently Stoner has front slides but saves it with the throttle. That technique is a completely different feel that pushing the front to the limit, wheels in line, so Rossi will never ride it as fast as Stoner could unless he gets a magic front tyre with more grip, or Stoner gets a real bad rear tyre to screw up his style. Sound familiar?

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I'm not completely sure what Stoner did with the rear to save the front from slipping away on the Duc.In Philip Island one could almost see it in one of the corners. I've read alot of times he saved it with the knee too though.

In a quite recent interview he sais he attacks every corner the way it needs to,depending on grip or what the corner looks like.

Anders GUZZI said:

I'm not completely sure what Stoner did with the rear to save the front from slipping away on the Duc.In Philip Island one could almost see it in one of the corners. I've read alot of times he saved it with the knee too though.

In a quite recent interview he sais he attacks every corner the way it needs to,depending on grip or what the corner looks like.

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He often says something about feeling the front closing, more so on the Honda because he can actually feel it go sooner. On the Duc it just went and he was down.



It even looks that way when he rides, like he's about to lose the front any minute, at least to me. I heard it phrased a 'controlled crash'. But I never see him saving it on the knee. Rather it looks like he gases it up a bit, and the bike picks up. Acceleration transfers weight to the rear, so it would stop the front closing I guess? Only he knows. C'mon Rossi give it a try. Let me know am I full of it?

It also tie's in with Stoners now infamous preference for less TC, not more. He's controlling bike balance with the throttle, more or less. If he had TC it would engage when he doesnt want it and he would lose control, because he depends on an amount of power to come in and save his 'controlled crash'.



This was a long way of saying the Duc frame was not a great problem for Stoner, but it is for everyone else because they dont ride that way. Rossi never will, so Burgess has gone on record to say they have to change the frame to give Rossi more front end feel, and I get it now I think they JB is actually right.

birdman said:

One thing I noticed from Leguna was Hayden saying he saw Rossi save the front of the duc a number of times with the knee. Ive seen it before from Rossi, but I cant remember seeing Stoner ever saving the duc with his knee. Apparently Stoner has front slides but saves it with the throttle. That technique is a completely different feel that pushing the front to the limit, wheels in line, so Rossi will never ride it as fast as Stoner could unless he gets a magic front tyre with more grip, or Stoner gets a real bad rear tyre to screw up his style. Sound familiar?

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I think the reason you never saw Stoner save it with the knee was because he didnt save it at all! Thats not a slight on Caseys riding, its just a direct result of him riding that bike, that much faster than Rossi - he didnt get a chance to save it! On the Honda though, with a chassis that actually aids front end grip, he's clearly able to ride the way he wants, like Anders says, attacking every corner the way it needs to be attacked. I saw Rossi's foot come off the peg twice whilst saving it, so that gives you an idea of how close to the limit Casey rode the thing

SuperShinya56 said:

One more year of this mediocre rider and hopefully he gets the axe.

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Who do you expect to replace Hayden? I'm not some blind Hayden fan but he's done reasonably well for a number 2 rider on a crap bike. Unless Dovi becomes available and is willing to risk his career on a Ducati I don't know who they are going to take to do better than Hayden (for Hayden's price). At this point in time Ducati is not highly sought seat!

birdman said:

He often says something about feeling the front closing, more so on the Honda because he can actually feel it go sooner. On the Duc it just went and he was down.



It even looks that way when he rides, like he's about to lose the front any minute, at least to me. I heard it phrased a 'controlled crash'. But I never see him saving it on the knee. Rather it looks like he gases it up a bit, and the bike picks up. Acceleration transfers weight to the rear, so it would stop the front closing I guess? Only he knows. C'mon Rossi give it a try. Let me know am I full of it?

It also tie's in with Stoners now infamous preference for less TC, not more. He's controlling bike balance with the throttle, more or less. If he had TC it would engage when he doesnt want it and he would lose control, because he depends on an amount of power to come in and save his 'controlled crash'.



This was a long way of saying the Duc frame was not a great problem for Stoner, but it is for everyone else because they dont ride that way. Rossi never will, so Burgess has gone on record to say they have to change the frame to give Rossi more front end feel, and I get it now I think they JB is actually right.

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Ofcourse Stoner had problems with it too,he crashed quite a few times,but as developement during the seasons were limited he had to find a way to ride around it.

That's a very big part of why the Hondas are this fast this season IMHO.Stoner has a bike he can ride without having to construct a ridingstyle and he has pulled every other Factory Honda riders with him.Maybe he didn't have to invent the Ducati riding style entirely because he uses a little of it on the Honda too,so maybe it's part of his style from the beginning.Making it easier for him riding the Ducati than Rossi and the others.I don't know,I'll have a look at my old DVD's when he was on the LCR Honda.(If the discs still are working)

Now, in the year 2001 the great Cobas (the inventor of the twin spar aluminum frame) designed this concept for a MotoGP bike, which was never realized because of the premature demise of the Spanish engineer. It certainly looks like it may have inspired Preziosi. However, we see in this sketch that the weight distribution (and length) is completely different from a Ducati Desmosedici as Cobas envisaged the concept applied to an IL engine, not a V4. With an IL engine a bike like this would in fact be extremely compact and short...

In 2007 Ducati won only bcuz of one reason: Casey Stoner. Everything else propsed here is a ........ myth still held on despite everything to contrary. All one needs to do is look at the success of the 2nd rider to see where Ducati would have been that year...and every year since. We still hav peeps saying this that, and now we hav the "GOAT" himself even, and still, the rider not named Stoner has done about the same, around top 5-7. God himself cant convince u guys. The evidence still continues to show u guys are wrong, but that doesnt help does it. I guess peeps just cant accept the clear truth. Who here thinks Rossi would hav challenged Stoner as a teammate in 07? He would hav been as good as Loris, then Meladri, as he is now as good as Nicky (even if u give him one position up, that still would hav put him out of the title). So its the 07 tires, fuel injection, screamer (haha, that was rejected by "Goat",) etc., bla bla bla. Loris, Melandri, & Hayden hav been on par with Rossi, and they would hav been so in 2007. Nothing about Rossi's ability to adapt to GP10 post Valencia says he would hav done any better (its not enuff that peeps wet dream would hav been to see Rossi on the "mightly" Duc when Stoner was schooling people, now u got ur wish..its been a nightmare). Somehow its possible for u peeps to forget Loris was good for the title 06, Melandri, was good for the title, Hayden nabbed a title, all three men WC and struggled on Duc EXACTLY to magnitude as Rossi (a similar if not identical talent). Ducati has not got worse nor better. The only thing that has changed is they no longer employ Stoner period. No Stoner--NO 07 title; for which even STILL peeps say it had something to do with the bike or tires. Were not the other Ducs just as fast and shod with same tires?

Jumkie said:

In 2007 Ducati won only bcuz of one reason: Casey Stoner. Everything else propsed here is a ........ myth still held on despite everything to contrary. All one needs to do is look at the success of the 2nd rider to see where Ducati would have been that year...and every year since. We still hav peeps saying this that, and now we hav the "GOAT" himself even, and still, the rider not named Stoner has done about the same, around top 5-7. God himself cant convince u guys. The evidence still continues to show u guys are wrong, but that doesnt help does it. I guess peeps just cant accept the clear truth. Who here thinks Rossi would hav challenged Stoner as a teammate in 07? He would hav been as good as Loris, then Meladri, as he is now as good as Nicky (even if u give him one position up, that still would hav put him out of the title). So its the 07 tires, fuel injection, screamer (haha, that was rejected by "Goat",) etc., bla bla bla. Loris, Melandri, & Hayden hav been on par with Rossi, and they would hav been so in 2007. Nothing about Rossi's ability to adapt to GP10 post Valencia says he would hav done any better (its not enuff that peeps wet dream would hav been to see Rossi on the "mightly" Duc when Stoner was schooling people, now u got ur wish..its been a nightmare). Somehow its possible for u peeps to forget Loris was good for the title 06, Melandri, was good for the title, Hayden nabbed a title, all three men WC and struggled on Duc EXACTLY to magnitude as Rossi (a similar if not identical talent). Ducati has not got worse nor better. The only thing that has changed is they no longer employ Stoner period. No Stoner--NO 07 title; for which even STILL peeps say it had something to do with the bike or tires. Were not the other Ducs just as fast and shod with same tires?

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I have always thought rossi wouldn't have beaten stoner with both on the 2007 ducati. Even if its advantages including the 2007 bridgestones if able to be employed were greater than in later years it seems pretty clear the only way to ride an 800 ducati fast, reliably as in 2007 or otherwise, is to ride it by stoner's method, which by the testimony of many (including rossi) is difficult if not impossible to duplicate.



It is serendipity that stoner and ducati coincided in 2007, and I don't entirely blame ducati for looking to change things when they realised their total dependence on him when he became ill in 2009. Unfortunately this resulted in a bike that not only no-one else could ride but which was unstable for everyone including him. Maybe rossi should try it with the screamer again as J4rno suggests, or better yet try the 2009 bike with the screamer before the 2010 "improvements" and/or a trellis frame bike..



Of course, and leaving valentino out of it, this does not mean stoner is a 3 second faster than melandri or 1.5 second or whatever faster than hayden rider in general, just on a ducati 800. He is proving pretty handy on a more conventional bike this year though, and 5 out of 10 race wins which could have been 6 isn't shabby, with pedrosa although affected by injury as he always is also unbeatable on his day despite this as he always has been, and lorenzo a great rider and stoner not able to find a good set-up on occasion as was the case even for a fully fit valentino in 2009.

For Gossake, not Rossi-Stoner again.

Here we are discussing Ducati, not the usual nonsense. And what me and others have been saying is that without Bridgestones and a healthy dose of extra bhp, NOT EVEN STONER would have won the title for Ducati in 07. So Stoner is great and unique (I was saying the same in 07) but the reason Ducati won in 07 is Stoner+Bridgestones+more bhps. All three things were needed for the title. The proof is that even Stoner didn't win it again, as soon as the others also had Bridgestones and extra bhp. The decline of Ducati's competitivity made him decline too: 10 wins in 2007, 6 in 2008, 4 in 2009, 3 in 2010. Then he (wisely) left and went to Honda where for him it is 2007 all over again (but with the others and especially his teammates much closer).

Amen.

J4rn0 said:

For Gossake, not Rossi-Stoner again.

Here we are discussing Ducati, not the usual nonsense. And what me and others have been saying is that without Bridgestones and a healthy dose of extra bhp, NOT EVEN STONER would have won the title for Ducati in 07. So Stoner is great and unique (I was saying the same in 07) but the reason Ducati won in 07 is Stoner+Bridgestones+more bhps. All three things were needed for the title. The proof is that even Stoner didn't win it again, as soon as the others also had Bridgestones and extra bhp. The decline of Ducati's competitivity made him decline too: 10 wins in 2007, 6 in 2008, 4 in 2009, 3 in 2010. Then he (wisely) left and went to Honda where for him it is 2007 all over again (but with the others and especially his teammates much closer).

Amen.

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I don't think the 2008 bike (once they sorted out the early season engine and/or electronics problems) and the 2009 bike were so bad and were competitive enough to give stoner a chance at those championships. Stoner's problem in 2008 was valentino particularly at laguna seca, and the problem in 2009 was him as he repeatedly said. The 2010 bike was a pig on which nobody could have won a championship as are its successors thus far.

michaelm said:

I don't think the 2008 bike (once they sorted out the early season engine and/or electronics problems) and the 2009 bike were so bad and were competitive enough to give stoner a chance at those championships. Stoner's problem in 2008 was valentino particularly at laguna seca, and the problem in 2009 was him as he repeatedly said. The 2010 bike was a pig on which nobody could have won a championship as are its successors thus far.

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Agreed, in 2008 the limits were being found for Ducati and Stoner because of Yamaha and Rossi's increased efforts with the Bridgestone shod M1. The problem with all of these silly comparisons which are

seeded in a deep dislike for one or the other rider, is that the 2010 Ducati was uncompetitive, Lorenzo stomped the field last season. Stoner won a few and crashed a lot, and also scored a few podiums

with the majority of results mediocre, Stoner was easily beaten in the title chase by a seriously injured Rossi who missed 4 rounds, and a seriously injured Pedrosa who missed 3. All of this points to the fact

that the Ducati has not been on par with its competition for nearly three years no matter who was/is riding it.



Now this year its easy to see once given a decent package, how competitive Stoner is as a rider. But of course he is certainly not indestructible as Dani and Dovi have proved this season on similar machinery.

This fact proves a great many things in the silly Rossi/Stoner debate which seems to be going on mindlessly into eternity. The fact that Stoner mastered the Ducati like no other only proves that his riding style

suited the Ducati's very quirky nature better than any others, as we all know he came into Motogp and was nowhere on the first Honda he rode in 2006, then the stars aligned and his talent was discovered with

the heavily altered regulations of 2007, the dawn of the electro bikes had come, and Stoner and Ducati/Bridgestone showed them all how its done. Since then this glorious marriage was gradually annulled by the

competition over time.



As great as Stoner is, and as impressive as his performances on the Ducati were, if he were to be riding the Ducati this season he would also be lucky to be mid-pack and maybe challenge for the odd podium at his strongest

circuits. And would have no doubt valiantly crashed out a few times trying to compete.

The scary thing for Ducati in particular this season is Nicky Haydens performances being mostly worse and slower than last season. This I feel has a lot to do with the current rubber. And anyone belittling the achievements of the nine-time

world champion across all of those classes based on the current situation is quite simply an ..... who has been waiting a great many years to have a dig.



It is simple, the two Japanese heavy weights have more than mastered the incredibly unnecessary complex 800cc formula now for two years, as they have all of the other formats for the past 30 years or more, and as one of them has conceived

most of this it is not surprising. And they have a control tyre which prevents anyone else from competing at the sharp end, even accidentally! Until the rules are flexed, then the big boys will always win, and it doesn't matter even if you are Valentino Rossi,

Michael Doohan, Jorge Lorenzo, Wayne Rainey or Casey Stoner you won't be in the hunt without one of two weapons. The machine and rubber is now much more important.

Sadly for the small guys like Ducati, next season also doesn't look like being anything different.

Analysis Paralysis fellas - but 07 everything aligned for CS on the Duc just as J4rno mentions, the package needs to be there to suit the Alien.....

Bit out of left field but seeing the debate continues heres possibly a similar case :

Schwantzy with his winning Zook of 93 - bike was not faster than Yam or Honda as per the Duc of 07 but look at the riders who couldn't get their riding style to suit the ride - Chandler, Barros were no mugs in those days - Beattie certainly got close finishing 2nd in 95 but it was the package with KS in 93 - took till 00 that Jnr won on the same marque.

Mackie said:

As great as Stoner is, and as impressive as his performances on the Ducati were, if he were to be riding the Ducati this season he would also be lucky to be mid-pack and maybe challenge for the odd podium at his strongest circuits.

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The GP11 was a refinement on the GP10 which Stoner rode to 3 wins & a few podiums in the second half of last year so I think he would be a fair bit better than mid pack if "he was lucky". Statements like this is why the Rossi/Stoner debate goes on "mindlessly into eternity". Just admit Stoner could get results on the Ducati & Rossi can't. A weight will be lifted & you'll be able to sleep again.

33 Coupe said:

The GP11 was a refinement on the GP10 which Stoner rode to 3 wins & a few podiums in the second half of last year so I think he would be a fair bit better than mid pack if "he was lucky". Statements like this is why the Rossi/Stoner debate goes on "mindlessly into eternity". Just admit Stoner could get results on the Ducati & Rossi can't. A weight will be lifted & you'll be able to sleep again.

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Agree !

33 Coupe said:

The GP11 was a refinement on the GP10 which Stoner rode to 3 wins & a few podiums in the second half of last year so I think he would be a fair bit better than mid pack if "he was lucky". Statements like this is why the Rossi/Stoner debate goes on "mindlessly into eternity". Just admit Stoner could get results on the Ducati & Rossi can't. A weight will be lifted & you'll be able to sleep again.

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Not at all, Nicky Hayden is the only constant in the analysis, and he has gone backwards since last year on the relatively similar GP11, whilst the Honda's have leaped forward.

All of this points to the logical assumption that Stoner would have performed as I stated above if on the Ducati this year. This is not a dig at Casey or Rossi, just a simple observation as I'm a fan of both

The riders can only do the best with the package they are on, and this is even more apparent in the current electro/regulation age. If the package doesn't suit or isn't competitive then the results are poor.

Mackie said:

Not at all, Nicky Hayden is the only constant in the analysis, and he has gone backwards since last year on the relatively similar GP11, whilst the Honda's have leaped forward.

All of this points to the logical assumption that Stoner would have performed as I stated above if on the Ducati this year. This is not a dig at Casey or Rossi, just a simple observation as I'm a fan of both

The riders can only do the best with the package they are on, and this is even more apparent in the current electro/regulation age. If the package doesn't suit or isn't competitive then the results are poor.

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Your ability predict the future is as good as mine or any other poster on this forum....however saying Stoner "would be lucky to be mid-pack and maybe challenge for the odd podium at his strongest circuits" defies logic and belittles his past achievements on the Ducati....check out Ducatis recent history MINUS Stoners results and EVERYONE ELSE is mid pack at best but ususally nearer the rear of the field.



RARELY did any other Ducati rider get near the podium over the last four years and Rossi can now be included in the list of riders to fail miserably on the Ducati. Stoner had 9 podiums last year and three wins....the GP10 Stoner rode and the currrent GP11 are VERY similar bikes and the Bridgestone rubber is EXACTLY the same as last year - unless you give creedence to conspiracy theories sourced by the likes of Talpa who has zero credibility



Stoner may have crashed more than Rossi if he was on the Ducati this year but he would have been striving for wins on a bike no one can get near a podium and if past history is anything to go by he probably would have had similar results to last year....hardly what you would call "lucky to be mid-pack and maybe challenge for the odd podium at his strongest circuits".... which is a crap statement IMO - but what would I know I cant predict the future anymore than you

Mackie,



You have referred to the 800cc bikes as 'electro' bikes twice now. Can you please advise us on your view of the level of 'electro' the 990cc bikes had and how they differ to todays bikes in this regard. At present your 'electro' comments sound to me like they are made to be detrimental to todays riders and particularly the 2007 Ducati WC rider but I am happy to give the benefit of the doubt pending your opinion on the 'electo' difference between 990 and 800.



Also Mackie, you try to draw a comparison between the performance of Stoner to other Ducati riders, particularly Hayden in 2010, and how he would potentially perform in 2011 on a Ducati based on the performance of Hayden in 2011. It is my view that Stoner's performance on a Ducati during the 4 years he rode one can not be compared to any other riders performance at the same time because Stoners performances could be considered an anomaly if you were conducting a scientific analysis. In other words regardless of how well or poor other Ducati riders performed as a result of the competitiveness of the bike, Stoner's performance was in my opinion a result of Stoner's ability independent to a large degree of the bike's performance.

Mackie said:

Not at all, Nicky Hayden is the only constant in the analysis, and he has gone backwards since last year on the relatively similar GP11, whilst the Honda's have leaped forward.

All of this points to the logical assumption that Stoner would have performed as I stated above if on the Ducati this year. This is not a dig at Casey or Rossi, just a simple observation as I'm a fan of both

The riders can only do the best with the package they are on, and this is even more apparent in the current electro/regulation age. If the package doesn't suit or isn't competitive then the results are poor.

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Honda has leaped forward how? With a new gearbox? Rossi requested and got the same gearbox on the GP11.1. In terms of development, this season Ducati have done more than Honda, with a new frame, engine, gearbox, and swingarm. If anything Stoner on a Ducati with this much development would be performing better than 2010 and may even be beating the Honda imo.

Exactly what point did Honda leap forward? Was it from the Valencia test last year? When did the Ducati go backwards all of a sudden? Was it Valencia last year? Thats an amazing coincidence. Since then has anything much changed? No, the Honda leaped forward and stayed there, the Ducati slumped backward and stayed there. Why?