Ducati going traditional?

#22 said:

Jesus, if they want a close look at the Yamaha why not just look at the one in Rossi's bedroom?!

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This is by far the best post of this thread!



If a deltabox frame was the infallible solution for heating up this generation of Brickgestones, then why is Suzuki struggling just like Ducati? They certainly do not lack expertize with Aluminum twin spar frames, and have had Bridgestones since the beginning. Also, Elias as well seems unable to bring heat into these tires, even if he rides a Honda.

It's the overall balance of the bike that matters, and the bike-rider combination. Ducati is clearly struggling this year more than any previous year (using Hayden as a reference). But I think they'll find something before the end of the season, without having to make a Yamaha clone.

Any rumours in Italy about a narrower angle V4?

Yamaha will probably continue to have the best chasis as they are the current world leaders in casting alu. Technology. Ducati lack the ability to manufacture anything that technologically advanced. Duc should have kept what worked and invested into making it better just like yamaha did instead of trying to reinvent the wheel.

hawkdriver said:

Duc should have kept what worked and invested into making it better just like yamaha did instead of trying to reinvent the wheel.

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I disagree completely. ALL of Ducati's success in motogp has come as a result of chosing a different philosophy to the generally accepted norm. They took on bridgestones before the trend in the 990 days, they compromised overall balance to make a quick bike at the start of the 800cc era and won the championship and what they are doing now is admirable. I truly hope they get their current concept working, the day the japanese are foced to follow their lead is the day they change the motorcycle industry.

Ducati won in 2007 because of three reasons:

1. A Ferrari-derived high pressure injection system that allowed peak power for their screamer engine while containing consumption; and a desmo system that allowed their engine to rev at almost 20,000 rpm.

2. Bridgestone tires specially developed for their own bike;

3. Last but not least, a rider like Casey Stoner who was able to exploit the above advantages by compensating the other shortcomings of the bike with his great talent.

In 2008, Ducati lost advantage #1 (the high-pressure injection system was adopted by all Japanese factories as well, together with pneumatic valves to counter the desmo), began losing advantage #2 (Bridgestones were given first to Rossi- Yamaha and then to Pedrosa-Honda). They still had Casey Stoner, but it wasn't enough to repeat the 2007 exploit.

In 2009, they began losing Stoner too (by trying to hire Lorenzo promising him two times the money Casey was getting).

In 2010, Ducati's crisis was apparent (but it was blamed on Stoner by many). Then at the end of the season Stoner managed three wins, which lulled them into the illusion of being competitive again.

Now they are at least facing the problems.

michaelm said:

Any rumours in Italy about a narrower angle V4?

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Nope. Preziosi is not yet convinced that 90°V and frameless design are "the" problems. They certainly have teams experimenting with many different ideas, but what will actually be prototyped and tested for GP has yet to be seen. I personally hope they give another chance to the screamer engine before trying something completely different, to see how that changes all the rest. After all, it was on the screamer that Stoner mastered the Ducati. It could be a key to understanding the whole package and make it work. Rossi was so conditioned by the success of Yamaha's big bang that he did not even test it... But now, Honda is winning with a screamer engine!

Tom said:

I disagree completely. ALL of Ducati's success in motogp has come as a result of chosing a different philosophy to the generally accepted norm. They took on bridgestones before the trend in the 990 days, they compromised overall balance to make a quick bike at the start of the 800cc era and won the championship and what they are doing now is admirable. I truly hope they get their current concept working, the day the japanese are foced to follow their lead is the day they change the motorcycle industry.

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It looks to me like all of their success came from Casey Stoner and one nasty engine, the rest of the bike hasn't been impressive as we've seen. The design has been a failure and look how many years it took to build a step 2 frame. There isn't anything wrong with innovation but you need the technological know how to make advancements, especially when you're dealing with a time limit. Their strategy of sacrificing corner speed for power has also been thrown out the window, the Japanese have moved beyond that while still having well rounded motorcycles.

When Yamaha needed more consistency from their chassis and swing arms they developed a new way to die cast aluminum while Ducati went to CF when they couldn't get consistency from the trellis chassis. I don't understand what's so admirable about what Ducati are doing, the two things separating them from the Japanese are the chassis and engine, the same two things Filippo doesn't want to change. Has any other rider won a race with the current design?

Mental Anarchist said:

The evidence was in the post you quoted. The problem is you just happened to read the post based on your perception rather than what I wrote. You see I was talking about and referencing softer front tyre construction and increased number of compounds in 2012. At this stage I have heard no rider ask for a softer construction. I also doubt that Lorenzo or Stoner would be calling for a softer construction as it offers less stability under braking and their bikes don't require the tyre to offer flexibility that the chassis doesn't deliver.



As far as I am aware the complaints have been happening for 2 years as have the crashes and the injuries. Why the change now. Are Dorna expecting uncharacteristic cold weather next season as well or are there other motives?

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Actually, I read your post in its entirety, and the bit I was referring to regarding 2011 as opposed to 2012 was :

It is my opinion that the softer construction front will have 2 impacts over and above the safety issue that the PR says is the primary reason behind the change.

1) Will improve Elias performance which will help Dorna fix the growing perception that Moto2 is not a suitable feeder/development class for future MotoGP riders, and

2) Potentially solve Ducati's and therefore Rossi's front end issues.

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As Lex has already pointed out, the only changes proposed for 2011 are in terms of compounds, not construction. The reason I commented the way I did is that Elias is extremely unlikely to be there in 2012 and solving Rossi's front end problems allegedly is acheived by the 2012 bike (though it apparently isn't fast enough to be competitive, but that is a separate issue). Hence your post implied that Dornas motives are to make Rossi competitive in 2011.



Also, as Lex said, the riders were complimentary on the first prototype 2012 tyres which have a softer construction, including Stoner and Lorenzo, so neither need to ask for a softer construction for 2012. For 2011, they have neither asked, nor has one been offered.



As for why the change now, that was exactly what my original reply to you addressed - all the riders have been complaining about the lack of choice due to unusually cool sessions/races recently and Bridgestone have responded, which is doubtless why all the riders have ratified the proposed changes. No perception issues IMHO.

J4rn0 said:

Ducati won in 2007 because of three reasons:

1. A Ferrari-derived high pressure injection system that allowed peak power for their screamer engine while containing consumption; and a desmo system that allowed their engine to rev at almost 20,000 rpm.

2. Bridgestone tires specially developed for their own bike;

3. Last but not least, a rider like Casey Stoner who was able to exploit the above advantages by compensating the other shortcomings of the bike with his great talent.

In 2008, Ducati lost advantage #1 (the high-pressure injection system was adopted by all Japanese factories as well, together with pneumatic valves to counter the desmo), began losing advantage #2 (Bridgestones were given first to Rossi- Yamaha and then to Pedrosa-Honda). They still had Casey Stoner, but it wasn't enough to repeat the 2007 exploit.

In 2009, they began losing Stoner too (by trying to hire Lorenzo promising him two times the money Casey was getting).

In 2010, Ducati's crisis was apparent (but it was blamed on Stoner by many). Then at the end of the season Stoner managed three wins, which lulled them into the illusion of being competitive again.

Now they are at least facing the problems.

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J4rn0 said:

Nope. Preziosi is not yet convinced that 90°V and frameless design are "the" problems. They certainly have teams experimenting with many different ideas, but what will actually be prototyped and tested for GP has yet to be seen. I personally hope they give another chance to the screamer engine before trying something completely different, to see how that changes all the rest. After all, it was on the screamer that Stoner mastered the Ducati. It could be a key to understanding the whole package and make it work. Rossi was so conditioned by the success of Yamaha's big bang that he did not even test it... But now, Honda is winning with a screamer engine!

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Two quality post J4rn0.

J4rn0 said:

Ducati won in 2007 because of three reasons:

1. A Ferrari-derived high pressure injection system that allowed peak power for their screamer engine while containing consumption; and a desmo system that allowed their engine to rev at almost 20,000 rpm.

2. Bridgestone tires specially developed for their own bike;

3. Last but not least, a rider like Casey Stoner who was able to exploit the above advantages by compensating the other shortcomings of the bike with his great talent.

In 2008, Ducati lost advantage #1 (the high-pressure injection system was adopted by all Japanese factories as well, together with pneumatic valves to counter the desmo), began losing advantage #2 (Bridgestones were given first to Rossi- Yamaha and then to Pedrosa-Honda). They still had Casey Stoner, but it wasn't enough to repeat the 2007 exploit.

In 2009, they began losing Stoner too (by trying to hire Lorenzo promising him two times the money Casey was getting).

In 2010, Ducati's crisis was apparent (but it was blamed on Stoner by many). Then at the end of the season Stoner managed three wins, which lulled them into the illusion of being competitive again.

Now they are at least facing the problems.

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Spot on post J4rno.....an excellent summary of events that transpired for Ducati to win their first MGP world title.



I also think Shell need to take some credit for all the R&D they did that year to develop an excellent fuel formula that helped in delivering maximum power while maintaining good fuel economy.

Dennsi Noyes tweeted today that there are rumours Ducati will go twin spar next year!! He later tweated that the apparent source of these rumours was 'the rider' in an interview with italian press...

yamaka46 said:

As Lex has already pointed out, the only changes proposed for 2011 are in terms of compounds, not construction.

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Thanks, but MA pointed it out. I skimmed the press release, and I originally thought B-stone were changing the construction as well.

J4rn0 said:

Ducati won in 2007 because of three reasons:

1. A Ferrari-derived high pressure injection system that allowed peak power for their screamer engine while containing consumption; and a desmo system that allowed their engine to rev at almost 20,000 rpm.

2. Bridgestone tires specially developed for their own bike;

3. Last but not least, a rider like Casey Stoner who was able to exploit the above advantages by compensating the other shortcomings of the bike with his great talent.

In 2008, Ducati lost advantage #1 (the high-pressure injection system was adopted by all Japanese factories as well, together with pneumatic valves to counter the desmo), began losing advantage #2 (Bridgestones were given first to Rossi- Yamaha and then to Pedrosa-Honda). They still had Casey Stoner, but it wasn't enough to repeat the 2007 exploit.

In 2009, they began losing Stoner too (by trying to hire Lorenzo promising him two times the money Casey was getting).

In 2010, Ducati's crisis was apparent (but it was blamed on Stoner by many). Then at the end of the season Stoner managed three wins, which lulled them into the illusion of being competitive again.

Now they are at least facing the problems.

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In 2007, Ducati won b/c of the tires and the rider. The engine and the fuel-injection system made the title a cake walk.



In 2008, they lost the tires which put them in a head-to-head development war against Furusawa, Burgess, and Rossi. It was a battle Ducati had little chance of winning, imo. They still can't develop a bike around the Bridgestone control tire, and neither of their riders can handle the hard front tire. Ducati's problems are much worse than they look. Stoner is the only rider they had who could handle the Bridgestones. If they hire Simo at the end of this season, I think there performance problems will cease.............entirely new problems will begin.

mylexicon said:

If they hire Simo at the end of this season, I think there performance problems will cease.............entirely new problems will begin.

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Some rare comedy from you Lex. Good one!

mylexicon said:

In 2007, Ducati won b/c of the tires and the rider. The engine and the fuel-injection system made the title a cake walk.



In 2008, they lost the tires which put them in a head-to-head development war against Furusawa, Burgess, and Rossi. It was a battle Ducati had little chance of winning, imo. They still can't develop a bike around the Bridgestone control tire, and neither of their riders can handle the hard front tire. Ducati's problems are much worse than they look. Stoner is the only rider they had who could handle the Bridgestones. If they hire Simo at the end of this season, I think there performance problems will cease.............entirely new problems will begin.

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Like, no more Ducati sales in Spain?

Has a question here. Do you think going back to a trellis frame (990 days) be better than the twin spar idea? Thanks!

willdafrog said:

Has a question here. Do you think going back to a trellis frame (990 days) be better than the twin spar idea? Thanks!

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The way I see it Ducati use Motogp as a testing ground for the future. They must have figured the old trellis although good had reached the end of its potential, having no where left to go due to inherent limiitations. It seems they could only stretch the trellis so wide before it became too weak, and modern bikes are going wide at the front to improve air flow to the engine. Also they could not design a short wheelbase/long swingarm with the trellis for improved handling. They dont want to go twin spar because the Japanese have fully developed this already, so Ducati would still be behind. With the monococh chasis they believe there is development potential for the future. Its only been two years with heavy testing restrictions against competition with years of experience. If Rossi or Stoner could test day in day out they would probably catch up much faster.



Its been reported somewhere a V engine itself supposedly has problems with bike weight distribution, particularly getting enough weight over the front, because the forward bank runs into the front wheel if placed too far forward. Since going to 800 Honda and Suzuki also appear to be inferior in handing vs the inline 4 Yamaha. With the inline they can get any weight distribution they want. The Yamaha always handled well, even Rossi admitted the first time he rode the Yam it was more agile and better in the front than the Honda, the only problem was a lack of power and rear grip.



So for Rossi to go from Yamaha to Ducati is probably the handest transition he could make because the Yamaha has the most front end feel of any bike out there. Stoner on the other hand never had the luxury of a great handling bike, so he just got on the Duc and rode the wheels of it not knowing any other way to do it. Not like he had much of a choice either.

J4rn0 said:

This is by far the best post of this thread!

If a deltabox frame was the infallible solution for heating up this generation of Brickgestones, then why is Suzuki struggling just like Ducati? They certainly do not lack expertize with Aluminum twin spar frames, and have had Bridgestones since the beginning. Also, Elias as well seems unable to bring heat into these tires, even if he rides a Honda.

It's the overall balance of the bike that matters, and the bike-rider combination. Ducati is clearly struggling this year more than any previous year (using Hayden as a reference). But I think they'll find something before the end of the season, without having to make a Yamaha clone.

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Care to wager a little money on that?

Keshav said:

Care to wager a little money on that?

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Honestly, no. It is now clear that the current BStones require a certain flex in the frame in order to be brought to optimal temperature, and Ducatis' design can hardly provide that flex. Casey could do something about it with his riding style, but he's gone and he did the wise thing, since those tires are more and more difficult in that sense. The 2011 iteration of the BStone are even harder than the 2010 version, and that has made the situation worse for Ducati.



My hope is that the new intermediate tires that BStone will bring at Brno can serve the Ducati a little better, and that with some tweaks to the bike, they can end the season with better results without having to do a rain dance. If that fails, then there is not much they can do this year. The engine rule is de facto preventing Ducati from bringing in a new chassis mid-season. The current engine cases are designed as fully stressed members supporting swingarm and rear suspension linkages, and designing a perimetral frame around them would make no sense as the engine can and should be made smaller and lighter to be inserted in a regular frame.



Eventually if the control tires continue to be developed exclusively on, and for, Jap bikes, Ducati may in fact be left with no choice but "jappize" their bike accordingly (or retire). In the last few days I heard reliable rumors that Ducati is working on a more conventional aluminum frame, developed in collaboration with Suter or FTR. But that as said above will involve a major redesign of the engine (probably narrowing the V angle as well) so it will be for 2012... Or maybe a prototype may be brought in for the last races of this season, accepting the engine rule penalty, just for testing? Who knows.



In short, in times of control tire a bike has to be designed around the tires, that's all... The amount of the re-design necessary in the case of Ducati will depend on the tires that will be available.

I guess Ducati sales in America has been going up since Nicky "The Kentucky Squid" Hayden has been on the team.



One more year of this mediocre rider and hopefully he gets the axe.







Can't stand Ducati's. They make such ugly bikes, what with their stupid looking trellis frame that looks like a redneck hillbilly welded together with some 1-1/2" tubular bars laying around in grand pappy's shack. Truth is Ducati just aren't a cutting edge motorcycle company...... over-priced all show, no go. The sad part is they aren't even 'show'. UGLY BIKES..... uggghhhhh.