Ducati going traditional?

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jazkat said:
Ducati's MotoGP pair coy on possible switch to traditional chassis





Both Ducati's MotoGP men Valentino Rossi and Nicky Hayden have been very shy about talking up (or down) a switch to a more traditional perimeter frame in order to try and eliminate the problem of not being able to get heat into the front tyre of the GP11.1 and GP11 respectively.



Neither the Italian or the American have said a Deltabox copy is definitely being looked into but nor have they categorically stated it isn't. Rossi has stated he has never asked for it but hasn't denied it exists while Hayden pleaded the fifth and wouldn't comment further than saying some stuff is on the drawing board but the way he said it gives rise to further speculation something is on the cards (especially when you look at the above photo).



"I've never asked Ducati for that, and I don't now if it would be the solution. I'm the rider, and the engineers must decide what to do for the future. We don't necessarily need a new chassis to solve our problems, though," said Rossi.



Rossi said from the day he first swung a leg over the GP11 at Valencia he was struggling for grip from both ends. The GP11.1 fixed the rear as it gave him some stability on corner exit but the front, especially when allied to the concrete compound Bridgestones, still remains a mystery on the brakes and when turning in.



At Mugello the team tinkered with the ride height by 20mm and on Sunday at the Sachsering, they altered the weight balance further which Rossi said was better but he still finished ninth behind Nicky Hayden and Alvaro Bautista, which tells you something.



Hayden, meanwhile, was faster in Germany this year than last but finds himself closer to the rear than before, beaten by a Suzuki at a left-handed track which he fully admits he loves. This coming weekend his goes to Laguna Seca and he sounds like he is dreading it: "It's going to be a long flight home…"



But the Kentuckian was more circumspect in his answers about a new chassis than the flat denials Rossi gave:



"There's always stuff on the drawing board, ideas are thrown up. That's one reason why they want me to ride this bike to see if it has any potential or if they need to give up on it. Of course they're looking at a few little things, Deltabox and this and that. We've kicked around some ideas," said Hayden.
Click to expand...



Here we have 2 important pieces of information. Rossi has indicated on several occasions now that a new chassis is not required but he has not said 'what' is required.



It is my opinion that Rossi is alluding to the 'what', being a softer construction front tyre.



Hirohide Hamashima – Assistant to Director, Motorsport Tyre Development Division

“We have spent a great deal of time speaking personally with riders, especially in recent months, and the raft of changes that we have proposed are in direct response to their feedback and comments, specifically relating to the warm-up performance of our tyres in the cooler morning sessions. It is important to note that all riders are very complimentary about the race-distance performance of our tyres, and that a number of lap records have been set in the last year on them, including today here in Germany, which indicate that outright performance is very good. However, we realise the need to focus more on the area of warm-up performance, and whilst we continue our development of a new family of tyres for next year which feature a softer construction, these changes that come into effect from Brno are our best effort at reacting as quickly as we can, and in a way satisfactory to all parties, mid-way through the season. The riders have agreed with our proposal so I am confident that the changes will provide them with what they’ve been asking for in terms of a greater number of softer specification tyres each weekend.” Referenced from www.motomatters.com



It would appear that the fix for the Ducati is coming. Now I know that the soft construction is being brought in due to 'safety' (funny, I have heard that excuse before somewhere) but the tyres have had warm up issues for 2 seasons now so it interests me that once again rules are being changed and rushed in seemingly out of the blue.



It is my opinion that the softer construction front will have 2 impacts over and above the safety issue that the PR says is the primary reason behind the change.

1) Will improve Elias performance which will help Dorna fix the growing perception that Moto2 is not a suitable feeder/development class for future MotoGP riders, and

2) Potentially solve Ducati's and therefore Rossi's front end issues.
 
Jumkie said:
Tripple.
<




Yeah, I hear you man. You're right. My post was mainly a dig at those who continue to think that Rossi doesn't need the best tool out their to display his talent. For year's I've been reading how supernatural he is, and given the chance, he could ride a snail to the championship. I felt otherwise, and this year is vindication. Again, package matters!
<
Click to expand...



the bikes gotta be there brother
<
 
jazkat said:
they way i see it its not heaven and earth for one guy!



ducati should have tried an alternative sooner way sooner.... still i think stoner would have been quicker but like i say at what cost? the risk of front end washout every corner if he was there this season?



other manufacturers seem to ramp up peformance every year but ducati are now sitting the otherside of that brick wall.



i really hope they will admit defeat and try something new, this CF is giving them no advantage infact doing the oposite and they are wasting way to much money.
Click to expand...

I hear you buddy, but I think you're supporting my point my friend. Yes, they should have thought about this a while back. Melandri should have been the first clue, but Hayden should have been a sledge hammer. Thing is, they lacked the respect and clout afforded a very few in this rider league power structure that everybody keeps denying. But no, they had to wait for Rossi. That is, they are now changing for ONE man! Btw, Ducati have been "ramping up performance" the thing is that it was difficult beast regardless of improvements. Some of us in the minority have been saying this for a few years now. But when you got the Yellow horde which seemed to love to hate Stoner, saying he was a piece of crap for binning it so often; then you have people like Rossi and Burgess saying Stoner isn't riding it hard and that they can fix it in lickity split, well, it seems a bit disingenuous to put all the blame on Ducati. Remember good buddy, it was the collective supposed learned conscience of GP that it was Stoner, Marco, and Nicky's ineptitude. I say let Rossi suffer a couple of years too, just for the equity of it all.
<
 
Jumkie said:
Tripple.
<




Yeah, I hear you man. You're right. My post was mainly a dig at those who continue to think that Rossi doesn't need the best tool out there to display his talent. For year's I've been reading how supernatural he is, and given the chance, he could ride a snail to the championship. I felt otherwise, and this year is vindication. Again, package matters!
<
Click to expand...



<




Well i wouldnt say he needs the best tool out there to display his talent, but he certainly needs a tool that isn't quite as ..... as the Ducati! I think he does have supernatural powers when it comes to race craft, Casey however is on another planet when it comes to outright speed. If the 2 riders were combined noone would get close....



I know you dont really want Rossi to suffer as well, you cant ........ a bullshitter!
<
 
Mental Anarchist said:
It would appear that the fix for the Ducati is coming. Now I know that the soft construction is being brought in due to 'safety' (funny, I have heard that excuse before somewhere) but the tyres have had warm up issues for 2 seasons now so it interests me that once again rules are being changed and rushed in seemingly out of the blue.



It is my opinion that the softer construction front will have 2 impacts over and above the safety issue that the PR says is the primary reason behind the change.

1) Will improve Elias performance which will help Dorna fix the growing perception that Moto2 is not a suitable feeder/development class for future MotoGP riders, and

2) Potentially solve Ducati's and therefore Rossi's front end issues.
Click to expand...

So I take it that you didn't hear the majority of the riders complaining about the compound range brought to this years "summer" races, given the actual track temps. Given the fact that Stoner, Lorenzo et al are asking for this, It's not a Rossi conspiracy as far as I can tell. The riders want this "rule change", though AFAIK there is no rule as to what tyres Bridgestone bring other than they must be suitable and safe, meaning there is no rule change being "rushed in out of the blue". If anyone has any contradictory evidence it would be interesting.
 
yamaka46 said:
So I take it that you didn't hear the majority of the riders complaining about the compound range brought to this years "summer" races, given the actual track temps. Given the fact that Stoner, Lorenzo et al are asking for this, It's not a Rossi conspiracy as far as I can tell. The riders want this "rule change", though AFAIK there is no rule as to what tyres Bridgestone bring other than they must be suitable and safe, meaning there is no rule change being "rushed in out of the blue". If anyone has any contradictory evidence it would be interesting.
Click to expand...





Agree...



Mental, did you not see Casey having an over the bars at 120mph at the weekend? Bridgestone would look a tad silly if Casey, Rossi and Pedrosa were all ruled out of the german GP due to cold tyres don't you think? There has indeed been an issue for 2 years but with the weather doing its best to .... everything up this year its been alot more noticeable!
 
Jumkie said:
Hey, shouldn't you be focusing on Spies?
<




Hey, if he manages a win at Laguna (not outside of the realistic realm of possibility) what will you do?
<
Click to expand...



i had a big Texas flag but its boxed up someplace, couldnt find it.. but i guess i can still invade the track
<
 
yamaka46 said:
So I take it that you didn't hear the majority of the riders complaining about the compound range brought to this years "summer" races, given the actual track temps. Given the fact that Stoner, Lorenzo et al are asking for this, It's not a Rossi conspiracy as far as I can tell. The riders want this "rule change", though AFAIK there is no rule as to what tyres Bridgestone bring other than they must be suitable and safe, meaning there is no rule change being "rushed in out of the blue". If anyone has any contradictory evidence it would be interesting.
Click to expand...



The evidence was in the post you quoted. The problem is you just happened to read the post based on your perception rather than what I wrote. You see I was talking about and referencing softer front tyre construction and increased number of compounds in 2012. At this stage I have heard no rider ask for a softer construction. I also doubt that Lorenzo or Stoner would be calling for a softer construction as it offers less stability under braking and their bikes don't require the tyre to offer flexibility that the chassis doesn't deliver.



As far as I am aware the complaints have been happening for 2 years as have the crashes and the injuries. Why the change now. Are Dorna expecting uncharacteristic cold weather next season as well or are there other motives?
 
spooky said:
Agree...



Mental, did you not see Casey having an over the bars at 120mph at the weekend? Bridgestone would look a tad silly if Casey, Rossi and Pedrosa were all ruled out of the german GP due to cold tyres don't you think? There has indeed been an issue for 2 years but with the weather doing its best to .... everything up this year its been alot more noticeable!
Click to expand...



Please read my post and then comment on what I wrote.



Then please explain to me why Stoner or Lorenzo would be asking for a softer construction?



Stoner is notorious for requiring a harder front tyre construction and Lorenzo it has been proposed by some has been the biggest winner from the current tyre offerings in the last 2 years and it would appear from his mistake free riding he has no problem with them in the races.
 
Mental Anarchist said:
Then please explain to me why Stoner or Lorenzo would be asking for a softer construction?
Click to expand...



B/c the riders have already ridden them during testing, and they've given them glowing reviews. The softer construction tires are the 2012 Bridgestones, and it sounds like the riders have convinced Bridgestone to have them ready after the summer break.



Why softer compounds for 1000cc competition? I'm really not sure. Dorna, FIM, and MSMA seem to have an obsession with stabilizing lap times to avoid changing circuit homologation procedures. The 1000cc engines will have a much wider spread of torque. According to Casey Stoner the gears will be taller and wider next season which will probably reduce fuel consumption and reduce lap times. If they are trying to stabilize lap times, Bridgestone will need to bring a softer tire with better consumption. The 2007s were bricks. The 2008s and 2009s were mush. The 2010s and 2011s are bricks again.



I don't see any pattern. What I see is compromise between the tire suppliers and FIM. Bricks for outright performance and longevity in 2007. Mushy hoops to address complaints about the increase of cornering speeds. Bricks again in 2010 and 2011 probably to reduce costs. Mushy hoops in 2012 to address the possible increase of performance, and to placate the vociferous riders who are so keen to slag Bridgestone in the press.
 
mylexicon said:
B/c the riders have already ridden them during testing, and they've given them glowing reviews. The softer construction tires are the 2012 Bridgestones, and it sounds like the riders have convinced Bridgestone to have them ready after the summer break.



Why softer compounds for 1000cc competition? I'm really not sure. Dorna, FIM, and MSMA seem to have an obsession with stabilizing lap times to avoid changing circuit homologation procedures. The 1000cc engines will have a much wider spread of torque. According to Casey Stoner the gears will be taller and wider next season which will probably reduce fuel consumption and reduce lap times. If they are trying to stabilize lap times, Bridgestone will need to bring a softer tire with better consumption. The 2007s were bricks. The 2008s and 2009s were mush. The 2010s and 2011s are bricks again.



I don't see any pattern. What I see is compromise between the tire suppliers and FIM. Bricks for outright performance and longevity in 2007. Mushy hoops to address complaints about the increase of cornering speeds. Bricks again in 2010 and 2011 probably to reduce costs. Mushy hoops in 2012 to address the possible increase of performance, and to placate the vociferous riders who are so keen to slag Bridgestone in the press.
Click to expand...



I have been unable to find any press release regarding soft construction tyres for this year. The rules are being changed to allow 3 compounds of front tyre this year but all the press releases say that the softer construction will not be available to next year.



Glowing reviews? I have not read those. The last review I read from Stoner was that they offered little improvement in performance and offered less stability in braking.



Happy to be proven wrong but at this stage there seems to be confusion as to the difference between softer compounds and softer construction/carcass. Considering my original point was about softer construction making up for lack of chassis flexibility (Ducati) and riding style (Elias) I will continue to ask for relevance when quoting my posts.
 
mylexicon said:
B/c the riders have already ridden them during testing, and they've given them glowing reviews. The softer construction tires are the 2012 Bridgestones, and it sounds like the riders have convinced Bridgestone to have them ready after the summer break.



Why softer compounds for 1000cc competition? I'm really not sure. Dorna, FIM, and MSMA seem to have an obsession with stabilizing lap times to avoid changing circuit homologation procedures. The 1000cc engines will have a much wider spread of torque. According to Casey Stoner the gears will be taller and wider next season which will probably reduce fuel consumption and reduce lap times. If they are trying to stabilize lap times, Bridgestone will need to bring a softer tire with better consumption. The 2007s were bricks. The 2008s and 2009s were mush. The 2010s and 2011s are bricks again.



I don't see any pattern. What I see is compromise between the tire suppliers and FIM. Bricks for outright performance and longevity in 2007. Mushy hoops to address complaints about the increase of cornering speeds. Bricks again in 2010 and 2011 probably to reduce costs. Mushy hoops in 2012 to address the possible increase of performance, and to placate the vociferous riders who are so keen to slag Bridgestone in the press.
Click to expand...



I have been unable to find any press release regarding soft construction tyres for this year. The rules are being changed to allow 3 compounds of front tyre this year but all the press releases say that the softer construction will not be available to next year.



Glowing reviews? I have not read those. The last review I read from Stoner was that they offered little improvement in performance and offered less stability in braking.



Happy to be proven wrong but at this stage there seems to be confusion as to the difference between softer compounds and softer construction/carcass. Considering my original point was about softer construction making up for lack of chassis flexibility (Ducati) and riding style (Elias) I will continue to ask for relevance when quoting my posts.
 
Mental Anarchist said:
I have been unable to find any press release regarding soft construction tyres for this year. The rules are being changed to allow 3 compounds of front tyre this year but all the press releases say that the softer construction will not be available to next year.



Glowing reviews? I have not read those. The last review I read from Stoner was that they offered little improvement in performance and offered less stability in braking.



Happy to be proven wrong but at this stage there seems to be confusion as to the difference between softer compounds and softer construction/carcass. Considering my original point was about softer construction making up for lack of chassis flexibility (Ducati) and riding style (Elias) I will continue to ask for relevance when quoting my posts.
Click to expand...



I just misread the press release. If they aren't changing the carcasses, I'm not sure why you would suggest a conspiracy. It might give Ducati a mild advantage b/c they seem to struggle most with front tire temperature; however, most of the riders will probably benefit as well. Safety is probably at the heart of this decision.



Regarding next year's tires, they have been praised by most of the riders. Casey was already screwed by tire changes in 2008 including a questionable change by Rossi to Bridgestone. He's going to be skeptical of any tire changes that put his Brickstones in peril. He might end up being even better.
 
mylexicon said:
I just misread the press release. If they aren't changing the carcasses, I'm not sure why you would suggest a conspiracy. It might give Ducati a mild advantage b/c they seem to struggle most with front tire temperature; however, most of the riders will probably benefit as well. Safety is probably at the heart of this decision.



Regarding next year's tires, they have been praised by most of the riders. Casey was already screwed by tire changes in 2008 including a questionable change by Rossi to Bridgestone. He's going to be skeptical of any tire changes that put his Brickstones in peril. He might end up being even better.
Click to expand...



It was at the Portugal test earlier this season, where all of the riders gave positive feedback on the new compound Brigdestone gave them to try, so yes it was glowing praise and unfortunately Bridgestone then informed all that

they would get them until next season, causing a bit of a stir.

From what I understand the issue is selection and not enough of it. Currently some riders and machines have large advantages with the limited compound selection, but in general

I think I've read complaints from all of the front runners and most of the back-markers on tyre supply this season. Particularly Tech 3 which has had more than a few issues.

Stoner has had issues with the control rubber always, Lorenzo has probably adapted the best. Jorge has even been quoted as saying that the tyres are worse than last year.

But its safe to say that one of the most difficult adaptions for a rider in Motogp is the rubber, an adaption that could be made much easier. Bridgestone needed to do something

the sport can not continue to develop with a tyre supplier sitting on the hands. Hopefully this may limit the extraordinary amount of front end washouts we've seen of late.
 
povol said:
12342:Ducati engineer.jpg]



Caption this photo





....... dude, would you like a camera, or maybe i can show you the schematics.
Click to expand...





Thats a great pic. It is almost unfathomable that Ducati are still persisting with this CF half frame. They have had nothing but issues from its inception, taking their world champ and turning him into an inconsistent

performer. Having now five world champions unable to turn the bike into a consistent front runner. All opposing the very successful machine that they take to WSBK which uses a more traditional,

proven and flexible design philosophy. There must be several advantages to this CF chassis, one would be weight I would imagine, however the drawbacks must be outweighing the pluses by now.

Personally I'm sick to death of reading quotes from Rossi and Hayden on how they are changing this and turning that, hoping that next week will be better.

It is clear that it won't be as 1.5 seconds is too much of a gap to improve with a tweak and a tuck. And riding it any harder doesn't seem to improve consistency as Casey has proven. (Karol Abraham is still finding out the hard way)



What I find mysterious is the Valencia Test of last season when Rossi finished nearly last, despite being very competitive the day before on the Yamaha. The shoulder excuse came out from both parties, but surely then

they all knew that this wasn't going to improve without a serious re-think. And from the changes to the GP11.1 the job is clearly only half done, and the more important half is still unchanged. Ducati might be considering

themselves lucky at this point that they have time to re-think the 1000, as it is also abundantly clear from the test times that it won't be competitive either.
 
Jesus, if they want a close look at the Yamaha why not just look at the one in Rossi's bedroom?!
 
I don't see it happening. Ducati will have invested a lot of money in the equipment and expertise to make the carbon stressed airbox, all the while falling further behind their rivals in the field of traditional chassis. Also they have commited to a monocoque contruction on their new road bike, if they were to abandon it in their race team it would be marketting nightmare. You can't sell people a product you consider not good enough to use yourself.
 
Mental Anarchist said:
Please read my post and then comment on what I wrote.



Then please explain to me why Stoner or Lorenzo would be asking for a softer construction?



Stoner is notorious for requiring a harder front tyre construction and Lorenzo it has been proposed by some has been the biggest winner from the current tyre offerings in the last 2 years and it would appear from his mistake free riding he has no problem with them in the races.
Click to expand...



I honestly think if a meteorite landed on the honda garage squishing Casey, Dani and Dovi you'd somehow find a way of blaming it on Rossi.



The fact of the matter is, the riders want more selection and due to safety reasons they're getting more selection. Just because you havent read quotes doesnt mean nothing was said, its known that a lot of riders were consulted, do you think they decided not to ask Casey and Jorge?
 

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