Ducati claimed another victim

Dr No · Jun 13, 2017

J4rn0 said:
I'm afraid I'm not naif enough to buy your reasoning...

Aprilia losing interest for the 250 class knowing that it would soon be killed is a completely unrelated issue: of course they stopped developing the 2 strokes. What else were they supposed to do?

You assume that they would not have participated in a prototype Moto2 class, but that's just your own assumption and goes against what Aprilia themselves declared, which makes plenty of sense.

How do you you know that they would not have participated in a prototype Moto2 class, maybe even delaying their entry in MotoGP? A 500cc 4-strokes V-twin would have certainly required a modification of their existing 250cc chassis, but not a complete redesign.

As things rolled out, they naturally preferred to ignore the current Moto2 with Honda engines and concentrate on MotoGP. It's totally understandable.

They had three more years to run with the 2Ts. They didn't bother with a Moto3 design, instead they began shuttering the whole dept. Most of the main players left circa 2008 with some minor development continuing on the 125s (who shared cylinder design with the 250s). They were done with Grand Prix. Finito.
Piaggio decided to change to SBK as soon as rumours started on the Moto2 class. Only the CRT rules brought them back into the GP fold. And that was a dressed up RSV4. So no, they didn't ignore Moto2 to concentrate on MotoGP.
(Sacchi did have a go at a Moto3 under the IODA banner, but the engine was blowing up on the dyno and AFAIK never made it into a chassis)

Dr No · Jun 13, 2017

michaelm said:
I agree it is unlikely that Aprilia would have ever contemplated running a premier class effort whilst also being the moto 2 universal provider. I think J4rn0 has a point as well though, they were never going to run a moto 2 team with a Honda engine, and imo breaking Aprilia's dominance of the old 250 class, particularly the expense of their bikes and the money they were making providing them, was a large part of the reason for the moto 2 class being devised. I extremely doubt Dorna would ever have countenanced Aprilia being the engine provider for the class, at least initially.

The reluctance of multiple engine suppliers to support a 4T intermediate class made a single supplier an inevitability.
The writing was on the wall for 2Ts as soon as the 990s appeared. Aprilia had zero interest in the proposed 4T intermediate class, happy to milk the 2Ts until their demise. They didn't countenance building an engine, and the fact that they didn't bother with a Moto3 effort tells you all you need to know. They only returned to the GP paddock when CRT arrived.

Arrabbiata1 · Jun 13, 2017

Dr No said:
They only returned to the GP paddock when CRT arrived.

Which was actually lead by the RSV4 project in WSBk

J4rn0 · Jun 13, 2017

Dr No said:
They had three more years to run with the 2Ts. They didn't bother with a Moto3 design, instead they began shuttering the whole dept. Most of the main players left circa 2008 with some minor development continuing on the 125s (who shared cylinder design with the 250s). They were done with Grand Prix. Finito.
Piaggio decided to change to SBK as soon as rumours started on the Moto2 class. Only the CRT rules brought them back into the GP fold. And that was a dressed up RSV4. So no, they didn't ignore Moto2 to concentrate on MotoGP.
(Sacchi did have a go at a Moto3 under the IODA banner, but the engine was blowing up on the dyno and AFAIK never made it into a chassis)

Yes, they ignored Moto2 to concentrate on SBK first and only after winning the title there came to MotoGP. We know that. You are free to dismiss their official press releases, but it keeps making much better sense to me. I think that what they stated there was exactly, and honestly, what they felt:

Aprilia will not compete in the Moto 2 Championship
Nov 24, 2009 17:05

The Piaggio Group said that Aprilia would not be competing in the Moto2 Championship, nor would it provide private teams with bikes for the championship.
In the Group’s view, the technological and racing characteristics of the Moto2 Championship are not such as to make participation in this type of race of strategic interest for Aprilia. The Group believes, therefore, that involvement in races where all competitors must necessarily use the engine technology of a rival constructor would serve no purpose and would be detrimental to its image as a leading Italian and European motorcycle manufacturer, with 43 world speed and off-road racing titles.

Dr No · Jun 13, 2017

They also utterly ignored the Moto3 class. Something you seem unable to respond to.
Anyway, of course they said they wouldn't compete in Moto2 due to the engine regs. I acknowledged that many posts ago. No manufacturer decided to join the class. What a surprise.
What I have been saying is that they were pulling out of GPs in entirety. The decision made wayyy before the Moto2 rules were finalised. It's hardly the case that at the end of the final 250 season they went: Oh, quick, better make a decision and punch out a press release.

Theo · Jun 14, 2017

Dr No said:
They had three more years to run with the 2Ts. They didn't bother with a Moto3 design, instead they began shuttering the whole dept. Most of the main players left circa 2008 with some minor development continuing on the 125s (who shared cylinder design with the 250s). They were done with Grand Prix. Finito.
Piaggio decided to change to SBK as soon as rumours started on the Moto2 class. Only the CRT rules brought them back into the GP fold. And that was a dressed up RSV4. So no, they didn't ignore Moto2 to concentrate on MotoGP.
(Sacchi did have a go at a Moto3 under the IODA banner, but the engine was blowing up on the dyno and AFAIK never made it into a chassis)

I think one of the biggest problems is Aprilia are the motorbike version of Lotus in formula one in the 60's, performance at the penalty of dead people or unreliable engines. I've had 4 Aprilia's and tbo they are crap, soft frames, over developed engines that go bang, brakes that are okay but overheat on long stop start journeys, and bloody uncomfortable seats over a distance, oh and they are designed for midgets.

JPSLotus · Jun 14, 2017

Theo said:
I think one of the biggest problems is Aprilia are the motorbike version of Lotus in formula one in the 60's, performance at the penalty of dead people or unreliable engines. I've had 4 Aprilia's and tbo they are crap, soft frames, over developed engines that go bang, brakes that are okay but overheat on long stop start journeys, and bloody uncomfortable seats over a distance, oh and they are designed for midgets.

Lotus of the 60s?

Laughable.

Lotus chassis were fragile for that era because Chapman was obsessed with reducing weight as much as possible, and reliability suffers when you're dealing with true prototype machines. In spite of your bogus assertion, Lotus won the constructor's championship in 1963, 1965, and 1968 all while managing to bag a couple of wins at the Indy 500. To say nothing of the introduction of the Cosworth DFV engine in the Lotus 49 at Zandvoort in June 1967. that was one of the most revolutionary cars ever built as it changed the entire game by using the engine as a stressed member of the chassis. The DFV Cosworth was the most reliable and successful Formula 1 engine ever built, lasting into the 1980s as an engine option.

It's not even an apt comparison due to what the nature of the era was for F1 development and none of the cars were safe of that era. Saying Lotus was somehow worse than the rest means nothing since they were all cigar tubes that saw the drivers surrounded by petrol...rolling bombs was an appropriate description.

Let me know when Aprilia fields a game-changer engine that wins multiple grands prix.

J4rn0 · Jun 14, 2017

JPSLotus said:
Lotus of the 60s?

................
Let me know when Aprilia fields a game-changer engine that wins multiple grands prix.

That already happened, many years ago. And it won multiple titles, not just GPs :happy:

JPSLotus · Jun 14, 2017

J4rn0 said:
That already happened, many years ago. And it won multiple titles, not just GPs :happy:

Considering 125cc and 250cc is not an equivalent of F1, your comparison falls far short of being a reasonable and logical equivalent. 125cc and 250cc to use the then single-seater categories would have been F3 and F2 respectively. 500cc was the equivalent of Formula 1 and MotoGP is the current equivalent category in 2017.

You might want to reconsider using false equivalence arguments.

So the question remains, can you tell me what game-changing Aprilia engine came to either the 500cc world championship or the MotoGP world championship, that actually won a title while simultaneously redefining the entire category with respects to technical innovation/revolution? The DFV Cosworth was a revolutionary engine in 1967 and did not win the 1967 title but did win the 1968 title. The reason I'm being specific in criteria is because The Cube engine was the closest they came to doing just that, only it never won anything.

J4rn0 · Jun 14, 2017

JPSLotus said:
Considering 125cc and 250cc is not an equivalent of F1, your comparison falls far short of being a reasonable and logical equivalent. 125cc and 250cc to use the then single-seater categories would have been F3 and F2 respectively. 500cc was the equivalent of Formula 1 and MotoGP is the current equivalent category in 2017.

You might want to reconsider using false equivalence arguments.

So the question remains, can you tell me what game-changing Aprilia engine came to either the 500cc world championship or the MotoGP world championship, that actually won a title while simultaneously redefining the entire category with respects to technical innovation/revolution? The DFV Cosworth was a revolutionary engine in 1967 and did not win the 1967 title but did win the 1968 title. The reason I'm being specific in criteria is because The Cube engine was the closest they came to doing just that, only it never won anything.

You said Grand Prix, and that's Grand Prix races that Aprilia has won in plentiful abundance. Equating the premier class only with F1 and demoting the smaller capacity classes as something preliminary or inferior has been Dorna's marketing exercise, but it is contrary to motorcycle Grand Prix tradition.

JPSLotus · Jun 14, 2017

J4rn0 said:
You said Grand Prix, and that's Grand Prix races that Aprilia has won in plentiful abundance. Equating the premier class only with F1 and demoting the smaller capacity classes as something preliminary or inferior has been Dorna's marketing exercise, but it is contrary to motorcycle Grand Prix tradition.

I said my intent was about a comparison F1 and that the 500cc world championship/MotoGP class was more appropriate and hence the proper equivalent because that is where the major technology has always been - the top class.

Go run at another windmill.

Dr No · Jun 14, 2017

Theo said:
I think one of the biggest problems is Aprilia are the motorbike version of Lotus in formula one in the 60's, performance at the penalty of dead people or unreliable engines. I've had 4 Aprilia's and tbo they are crap, soft frames, over developed engines that go bang, brakes that are okay but overheat on long stop start journeys, and bloody uncomfortable seats over a distance, oh and they are designed for midgets.

All of which may be so, but has zero to do with the Aprilia race dept and their creations.

Dr No · Jun 14, 2017

JPSLotus said:
I said my intent was about a comparison F1 and that the 500cc world championship/MotoGP class was more appropriate and hence the proper equivalent because that is where the major technology has always been - the top class.

Go run at another windmill.

Umm, no. In the case of 2T the "lower" classes were just as, if not more sophisticated than the 500s.There were more innovations in the lower classes than the 500. Frames, suspension, etc were more often much better in the 125/250/350 classes than the crappines the factories were punting out. Nice 200deg exhaust opening disc valve singles, where a factory Yam or Suzuki 500 was a piston ported dinosaur. Even going back to the 60s. Honda's finest bikes were the 250/6 etc. not the 500.

Gaz · Jun 14, 2017

Doc, your post touches on something that I have been wondering for some times .......... that we so often now no longer look at the feeder categories as anything other than 'preliminary entertainment' whereas in years past many people followed those categories religiously as they were far higher profile in a number of ways.

Personally, I have to admit that Moto3 and Moto2 just do not have the same 'draw factor' as did the 80/125/250/350 categories of years past

AJV80 · Jun 14, 2017

Gaz said:
Doc, your post touches on something that I have been wondering for some times .......... that we so often now no longer look at the feeder categories as anything other than 'preliminary entertainment' whereas in years past many people followed those categories religiously as they were far higher profile in a number of ways.

Personally, I have to admit that Moto3 and Moto2 just do not have the same 'draw factor' as did the 80/125/250/350 categories of years past

125cc was an amazing category because riders had to fight tooth and nail, there was a far bigger advantage to be made in actual race craft and conducting a good slipstream on an opponenet than there was in having a technically superior motorcycle .. given the limited capacity and power outputs etc.

As far as I can see Moto3 is no different, brilliant racing with half a dozen lead position changes on the final lap, cant really ask for more. I'm sure In 20 years time we will all look back at Moto3 and Moto2 with the same rose coloured glasses... most likely when electric motorcycles take over.

I can already hear the future nostalgic comments........ "Those where the good ol days ... when they raced the old fashioned 120VDC Tesla battery power bikes, not this fan dangled 18VDC solar & methane fart gas power assisted eco friendly rubbish .... its ruining the sport" *shakes walking cane

I might be on my own here but I think Moto3 ....... rocks!!!

Dr No · Jun 14, 2017

Gaz said:
Doc, your post touches on something that I have been wondering for some times .......... that we so often now no longer look at the feeder categories as anything other than 'preliminary entertainment' whereas in years past many people followed those categories religiously as they were far higher profile in a number of ways.

Personally, I have to admit that Moto3 and Moto2 just do not have the same 'draw factor' as did the 80/125/250/350 categories of years past

100%.
I have mentioned it before. In the days of Doohan wandering off into the distance, it was 125s and 250s that kept me captivated.
In years gone by, it was probably the smaller classes that kept the whole show going. Lots of privateers in those classes, lots of bike options, compared to 500s, in which you had no competitive options against the MVs, Hondas etc. Look at what rattled around behind those for a decade. Yamaha should be credited for their proddy racers which provided rides for so many. Something that is seriously missing from modern bike racing (then again, in the 70s road bikes were utter ..... for racing, unlike the road bikes now)

Gaz · Jun 15, 2017

AJV80 said:
125cc was an amazing category because riders had to fight tooth and nail, there was a far bigger advantage to be made in actual race craft and conducting a good slipstream on an opponenet than there was in having a technically superior motorcycle .. given the limited capacity and power outputs etc.

As far as I can see Moto3 is no different, brilliant racing with half a dozen lead position changes on the final lap, cant really ask for more. I'm sure In 20 years time we will all look back at Moto3 and Moto2 with the same rose coloured glasses... most likely when electric motorcycles take over.

I can already hear the future nostalgic comments........ "Those where the good ol days ... when they raced the old fashioned 120VDC Tesla battery power bikes, not this fan dangled 18VDC solar & methane fart gas power assisted eco friendly rubbish .... its ruining the sport" *shakes walking cane

I might be on my own here but I think Moto3 ....... rocks!!!

No doubt that Moto3 produces some good, close racing, much along the same vein that 125cc (and the 80cc classes as well) did for decades but today, Moto3 is looked on as a feeder class where just over a decade ago 125cc was it's own show and in many areas, the 250/350 and 500cc were the supporting class to 125cc (and this goes for 250/350 as well).

The two stroke classes seemed to have 'more personality' of the class (no doubt for this aging old fart, it is the two stroke sound and smell) whilst the 4 strokes classes seem to lack that same personality or class defining characteristic which may well come with time, as after all the old two strokes had years to build but for mine, at present the smaller capacity classes do not have that 'wow' of years past.

If these were not so rule restricted or spec series it could/would be different as it would open up to innovation and ideas that may prove fruitful for those so inclined but sadly, at this stage so many rules restrict the innovation (across all current four stroke categories)

J4rn0 · Jun 15, 2017

JPSLotus said:
I said my intent was about a comparison F1 and that the 500cc world championship/MotoGP class was more appropriate and hence the proper equivalent because that is where the major technology has always been - the top class.

Go run at another windmill.

Maybe you should do that

danski · Jun 15, 2017

J4rn0 said:
Maybe you should do that

There's about 350 wind turbines just offshore near me, JPS could have a go at those but he'll have to work on walking on water first.

JPSLotus · Jun 15, 2017

danski said:
There's about 350 wind turbines just offshore near me, JPS could have a go at those but he'll have to work on walking on water first.

I already walk on water.

Search

Search

Ducati claimed another victim

Dr No

Dr No

Arrabbiata1

J4rn0

Dr No

Theo

JPSLotus

J4rn0

JPSLotus

J4rn0

JPSLotus

Dr No

Dr No

Gaz

AJV80

Dr No

Gaz

J4rn0

danski

JPSLotus

Similar threads

Recent Discussions