Ducati? 2nd Rider always suffers.

Its really very simple............Stoner is a far better rider. Please dont resort to conspiracy theories...................

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BuD_Sp3NDeR @ Apr 17 2009, 11:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>This is my 1st post here. I've read the post about sacking Hayden & it's quite ridiculous if you ask me. The question regarding the gap between Ducati team riders has to be asked directly to the Ducati team, hopefully one of the Media people who has the opportunity will do so, LIVE! It almost becomes quite suspicious when you think about it.

Are Ducati trying to get Hayden up there? or is the attention more on Stoner's title challenge? Is it just a Beast that can only be tamed by a special breed? Then, I'd like to see Bayliss wildcard sometime this season to help make things a bit clearer. Time will tell.

My position on this goes like this: I've been watching moto for a long time now & I'm sure many here as well. I've never really seen such a phenomenon where a team had a very quick bike but only 1 rider was able to do the business, maybe I wasn't paying much attention. Surely you know the bike has great pace wouldn't you want to get your other rider up there to take the points away from the Great Vale'?

When Doohan was quick so was Criville & okada, When Bayliss was good on the GP bike so was Caparossi. You look at today's Yamaha or Honda teams & you can see that most if not all the riders benefit from the actual goodness the bike has. It is quite difficult to put your thumb on the pulse and say why exactly riders like Melandri & Hayden seem to suffer so much riding that bike. You have to admit that they are both quite good riders - Melandri was solid aboard the Honda & so was Hayden, even to a point where he actually won the title.
J4rn0 may have the best perspective on this, he is very in touch with the italian scene, is even-handed and seems to be a fan of both rossi and stoner, as well as ducati. He has recently opined (I hope I am not misquoting you J4rn0) that ducati don't have the resources to follow more than one line of development.

Even as a stoner fan I think you have a legitimate question, and I agree with others that they also may not have the resources to maintain even 2 factory bikes at the same level over the course of a whole season; this is probably true of other factories as well now with the complexity and rapidly changing nature of the current technology but to a lesser extent. I don't think they are deliberately sabotaging riders other than stoner and it would be very much against their interests to do so even apart from the manufacturers title; they appear to me to currently heading for serious problems if no non-stoner ducati rider fires this year, as they will have trouble attracting even moderately performed rookies let alone successful experienced riders in future. There was also no reason at all for them to favour stoner over loris capirossi initially other than superior performance, and my recollection is that suppo in his public utterances at least seemed to regard capirossi as the number one rider until stoner had won 2 or 3 races in 2007.

Ducati is a brand that sells motobikes to the public. Bikes running at the back of the pack does not endorse a philosophy that a everybody should buy a Ducati. It says "only buy a Ducati if you are good enough to ride it."

If money was a problem then why do they have 5 bikes on the grid? Don't forget they have some very loyal sponsors in Marlboro and Shell. And if money was a problem do you think they would be making CF bikes that are so far ahead of the techno/development curve then their competitors?

The answer is simple, it is hard bike to ride and it takes a sensational rider to ride it. Rossi and Stoner are vitually a second a lap quicker than every other motorcycle racer on the planet. They are that good. If Rossi was on the Ducati he would find a way to set it up and he would be just as quick as Stoner as would Stoner be as quick as Rossi if he was on the Yamaha. And they would both still be a second a lap ahead of the field if they were riding a Repsol Honda.

between 1st and second huge gap, but between 2nd 3rd and 4th ducati riders there is not much between them, on any day each of the other ducati rider could beat the other.

so conclusion.... it is 99% rider that makes the difference.

the end

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TP70 @ Apr 17 2009, 07:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Ducati is a brand that sells motobikes to the public. Bikes running at the back of the pack does not endorse a philosophy that a everybody should buy a Ducati. It says "only buy a Ducati if you are good enough to ride it."

If money was a problem then why do they have 5 bikes on the grid? Don't forget they have some very loyal sponsors in Marlboro and Shell. And if money was a problem do you think they would be making CF bikes that are so far ahead of the techno/development curve then their competitors?

The answer is simple, it is hard bike to ride and it takes a sensational rider to ride it. Rossi and Stoner are vitually a second a lap quicker than every other motorcycle racer on the planet. They are that good. If Rossi was on the Ducati he would find a way to set it up and he would be just as quick as Stoner as would Stoner be as quick as Rossi if he was on the Yamaha. And they would both still be a second a lap ahead of the field if they were riding a Repsol Honda.

"as would Stoner be as quick as Rossi if he was on the Yamaha" this is pure hogshit - stoner has never been able to ride anything to a win other than the 800 ducati. he fell off everything else. his style is basically twist the grip and wait for the bike to do the rest. Ducati/ marelli have accomodated this extremely well, but ONLY FOR Stoner - with the result that other technically better racers, who have not migrated to the just twist the grip style - see capirossi, melandri and possibly power slide hayden (not my favorite, but a rider with a sliding style) have not been as fast on the ducati - i agrre with the idea of seeing Bayliss on the Ducati - if he can't ride it, then no-one, but Stoner can. Put Rossi on the Ducati and he will ride it faster than Stiner, but then MotoGP will become a competition for places 2 to 4, with Stoner as favorite for place 2. My hope - restrict the electronics - electronics ban is not going to happen, but keep it in the engine not gyroscope in frame, allow better braking - (don't ever do anything as stupid as the Moto2 one engine - that will kill competitive racing)

Interesting alternative - put Rossi & Stoner on WSB bikes - same make and let them race - I know who I would put my money on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BuD_Sp3NDeR @ Apr 17 2009, 08:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>To bunyip, I have made no mention that the reason is down to some sort of conspiracy, PLEASE ! this is Bike Racing not politics . I love Moto & I like to see Racing, I think there would be Lots of Fun if Nicky was up there, There is nothing better than a Great Battle for the Lead. I don't think you can say that Stoner is far better, not yet at least. I think he must still yet Prove it over time, maybe Win some Races for Other Teams, Win some Races from the third Row on the Grid Stuff like that will get him There.

Welcome to the forum - looks like you'll be a good addition too.

I have no doubt that being the smaller company that they are, Duc wouldn't have the manpower to help develop another bike to suit another rider. I really think that Nicky will adapt - he is certainly trying. And Kallio has already showed promise... I think this will be the year that other riders will show the Duc is ridable - even though it may take some time.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ptk50 @ Apr 17 2009, 01:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>"as would Stoner be as quick as Rossi if he was on the Yamaha" this is pure hogshit - stoner has never been able to ride anything to a win other than the 800 ducati. he fell off everything else. his style is basically twist the grip and wait for the bike to do the rest. Ducati/ marelli have accomodated this extremely well, but ONLY FOR Stoner - with the result that other technically better racers, who have not migrated to the just twist the grip style - see capirossi, melandri and possibly power slide hayden (not my favorite, but a rider with a sliding style) have not been as fast on the ducati - i agrre with the idea of seeing Bayliss on the Ducati - if he can't ride it, then no-one, but Stoner can. Put Rossi on the Ducati and he will ride it faster than Stiner, but then MotoGP will become a competition for places 2 to 4, with Stoner as favorite for place 2. My hope - restrict the electronics - electronics ban is not going to happen, but keep it in the engine not gyroscope in frame, allow better braking - (don't ever do anything as stupid as the Moto2 one engine - that will kill competitive racing)

Interesting alternative - put Rossi & Stoner on WSB bikes - same make and let them race - I know who I would put my money on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The stoner v rossi argument was very tedious 2 years ago, and I endeavour perhaps not very successfully to make no further contribution to it.

Concerning stoner alone however, I think the argument that he can't be any good otherwise he would have achieved more earlier is not a strong one, especially given that he is the second youngest winner of the premier class title in history, and only by less than 100 days at that. By the same argument roger federer at age 22 could never to be any good since lleyton hewitt nearly always beat him for the first several years of their respective careers and had won 2 grand slam championships whilst federer had won none. Stoner's eventual rating depends on what he does from now on.

Hmmm, im not on the bandwagon of Rossi can ride anything. He has always had a bike and tires developed just for him. He has always had the red carpet rolled out. He also has one of the best teams in the paddock. Even Rossi himself alluded to the fact that he worries about the non-competitive privateer machinery and even to some extent the other factory machinery.

Here it is plain and simple. Put Rossi on the Kwak and give him the same support and team that Westy got. He may be top five but woudn't win the championship. Rossi is great but understand that he needs support and his team to win. And he has always had the best of both of those.

On the topic of Ducati and there 2nd rider. I think that Edwards said it best, "I think 90% of the paddock couldn't use Rossi's tires and setup." I think that he said this after Rossi switched from Michelins?? But same case can be made for the Ducati. Casey just happens to be able to ride what everyone else can't. Don't get me wrong, I am saying he is that talented. But what works for him doesn't work for anyone else. In 07 Casey had engineers scratching their heads in disbelief at what kind of setup he was requesting. That just goes to show you that his style is not anywhere close to any other rider. This is a good thing IMO.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SackWack @ Apr 17 2009, 11:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>In 07 Casey had engineers scratching their heads in disbelief at what kind of setup he was requesting.

Intriguing - I want to know more about this. ... are there any articles about it still floating around the net?

Ducati are an extremely well funded team and definitely have the man power and resources to run all of their GP bikes to an adaquate standard. They may not be prepared to use money and resources following two development directions for the sake of the riders who aren't winning, but not many teams would. There is no doubt they are attempting to make their bike easier to ride because at the moment it isn't good enough compared to their competitors machines.

I don't think the Ducati is a particularly difficult bike to ride, but I do think the bike is much different than a Honda.

Honda uses a mass centralization philosophy. Their bikes are designed to be good in all performance categories and easy to ride.

Ducatis are the exact opposite b/c the Ducati GP bikes are designed to have a huge advantage in a few performance criteria. Ducati have told us from the beginning that they build bike with low drag, high acceleration, high top speed, and high corner exit speeds. Ducati's biggest problem has always been corner entry, but Bridgestone was charged with improving the Ducati's performance into the bendy sections. During the 990 era Ducati were never able to capitalize on their design philosophy because the Honda was equally as fast in a straight line, and the Ducati always struggled with torsional rigidity at the rear wheel. The 800 era has helped give them such a large advantage in engine performance that is has allowed them to focus their development budget elsewhere.

The Honda accommodates many different riding styles, the Ducati punishes all but 1 riding style. Nicky has been riding with the rear wheel most of his career but he's been on a Honda RC for so long that he has become accustomed to riding in the middle of the bike. Nicky and Marco both made the switch from Honda, and both riders have a tendency to hump the tank in order to get their mass into the center of the bike. As far as I can tell, sitting too far forward on the Ducati is a formula for disaster b/c the bike is designed to be ridden with the back wheel.

Nick spent 6 years on a Honda RC; his Honda riding habits will not be undone overnight.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ptk50 @ Apr 17 2009, 01:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>"as would Stoner be as quick as Rossi if he was on the Yamaha" this is pure hogshit - stoner has never been able to ride anything to a win other than the 800 ducati. he fell off everything else. his style is basically twist the grip and wait for the bike to do the rest. Ducati/ marelli have accomodated this extremely well, but ONLY FOR Stoner - with the result that other technically better racers, who have not migrated to the just twist the grip style - see capirossi, melandri and possibly power slide hayden (not my favorite, but a rider with a sliding style) have not been as fast on the ducati - i agrre with the idea of seeing Bayliss on the Ducati - if he can't ride it, then no-one, but Stoner can. Put Rossi on the Ducati and he will ride it faster than Stiner, but then MotoGP will become a competition for places 2 to 4, with Stoner as favorite for place 2. My hope - restrict the electronics - electronics ban is not going to happen, but keep it in the engine not gyroscope in frame, allow better braking - (don't ever do anything as stupid as the Moto2 one engine - that will kill competitive racing)

Interesting alternative - put Rossi & Stoner on WSB bikes - same make and let them race - I know who I would put my money on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Gee after reading your whole story and spelling out your hatered for Stoner I wonder who your money is on? Get a grip dude Stoner is friggin really good so admit it. Rossi if he was that awesome should win EVERY race ever so now what is your excuse?

So if the Duc is so hard to ride then why is Mika looking like he may be able to do the same or similar job to Stoner? It almost looks as though his style is the same as Stoners so maybe that is the reason. I just think really that Hayden needs to unlearn his Honda style and get used to the DUC. I remember reading and actually hearing Edwards talk about this very thing in order to be competative. He obviously got up to speed it just takes some time. .... man the instant gratification you guys that are firing off at Hayden is just uncalled for and is really unrealistic.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 17 2009, 06:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I don't think the Ducati is a particularly difficult bike to ride, but I do think the bike is much different than a Honda.

Honda uses a mass centralization philosophy. Their bikes are designed to be good in all performance categories and easy to ride.

Ducatis are the exact opposite b/c the Ducati GP bikes are designed to have a huge advantage in a few performance criteria. Ducati have told us from the beginning that they build bike with low drag, high acceleration, high top speed, and high corner exit speeds. Ducati's biggest problem has always been corner entry, but Bridgestone was charged with improving the Ducati's performance into the bendy sections. During the 990 era Ducati were never able to capitalize on their design philosophy because the Honda was equally as fast in a straight line, and the Ducati always struggled with torsional rigidity at the rear wheel. The 800 era has helped give them such a large advantage in engine performance that is has allowed them to focus their development budget elsewhere.

The Honda accommodates many different riding styles, the Ducati punishes all but 1 riding style. Nicky has been riding with the rear wheel most of his career but he's been on a Honda RC for so long that he has become accustomed to riding in the middle of the bike. Nicky and Marco both made the switch from Honda, and both riders have a tendency to hump the tank in order to get their mass into the center of the bike. As far as I can tell, sitting too far forward on the Ducati is a formula for disaster b/c the bike is designed to be ridden with the back wheel.

Nick spent 6 years on a Honda RC; his Honda riding habits will not be undone overnight.

The rear wheel bias is also the 'secret' key to the Bridgestone tyres, that were developed on the Ducatis. Last year, after Qatar, Rossi and Burgess began 'Ducatizing' the Yamaha to be able to exploit the Bridgestones properly. They experimented shifting the mass to the back by pushing the rear wheel as forward in the swingarm as possible; it seemed to work so in China they had a new shorter swingarm and the modification became permanent. Rossi, who declared he had to 'change his style' to master the Stones, began winning races again on a Yamaha mimicking Ducati's weight distribution in order to exploit the same tyres.

But it's not only that... Stoner and Rossi use harder tyres than all others. And if you can not use those hard tyres, then the whole rear-biased thing does not seem to work so well. That is where the RIDER makes the difference. Nicky said during tests this winter that he had problems with the rear, but if he tried to use the same hard tyres as Stoner, then he risked to lose it completely.

Catch 22.



In view of the above we can also safely say that yes, Rossi could ride the Ducati fast--he's already riding a 'Yamahacati' after all

Lex and J4rn0,
I agree with both your posts. Excelent observations.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Apr 17 2009, 02:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Catch 22.



In view of the above we can also safely say that yes, Rossi could ride the Ducati fast--he's already riding a 'Yamahacati' after all

I would buy it, however, how many people can ride the Yamaha fast, even on Bridgestones ?? We know the score. Jorge and Edwards can also ride the Ducati then too?? They have shown to be somewhat close in practice and the races, or at least closer than the Ducati separation. Too many questions arise out of your speculation.

I will however agree with your assesment of the harder tires. Edwards has speculated about the hard tires that Rossi uses as I alluded to in my posts above. Is it not the hard front that got the most complaints in the race though

Also, for those that thought Hayden forgot how to ride with the rear, I would invite you to go back and check out the qualifying sessions for that last couple of rounds that Hayden was on the Honda. He was showing people he could still slide the rear out, wasn't he

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mylexicon @ Apr 18 2009, 04:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I don't think the Ducati is a particularly difficult bike to ride, but I do think the bike is much different than a Honda.

Honda uses a mass centralization philosophy. Their bikes are designed to be good in all performance categories and easy to ride.

Ducatis are the exact opposite b/c the Ducati GP bikes are designed to have a huge advantage in a few performance criteria. Ducati have told us from the beginning that they build bike with low drag, high acceleration, high top speed, and high corner exit speeds. Ducati's biggest problem has always been corner entry, but Bridgestone was charged with improving the Ducati's performance into the bendy sections. During the 990 era Ducati were never able to capitalize on their design philosophy because the Honda was equally as fast in a straight line, and the Ducati always struggled with torsional rigidity at the rear wheel. The 800 era has helped give them such a large advantage in engine performance that is has allowed them to focus their development budget elsewhere.

The Honda accommodates many different riding styles, the Ducati punishes all but 1 riding style. Nicky has been riding with the rear wheel most of his career but he's been on a Honda RC for so long that he has become accustomed to riding in the middle of the bike. Nicky and Marco both made the switch from Honda, and both riders have a tendency to hump the tank in order to get their mass into the center of the bike. As far as I can tell, sitting too far forward on the Ducati is a formula for disaster b/c the bike is designed to be ridden with the back wheel.

Nick spent 6 years on a Honda RC; his Honda riding habits will not be undone overnight.


oh please u guys say nicky is a dirt bike rider , but then you say he is now a honda style riders thus his lack of success on the ducati..... and he was reall successful on the honda??? .... satellite riders were regularly beating him on the honda, he couldnt of been too acostomimed to it..... fucken conclusion.... hayden is a mediocre rider