Dovizioso concerned with Honda's pace

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Mar 10 2009, 12:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Although HRC have always propounded the theory that their engineering input is the domineering factor over their rider input, I could quite easily subscribe to the fact that they were developing a one rider strategy based around Pedrosa. They were the chief architects behind the adoption this formula, and quite feasibly bought about this paradigm shift with a view to signing up and capitalizing on the plethora of jockey sized two stroke riders ready to make their mark in the<strike> big</strike> sorry, slightly bigger class. So following the untimely death of Kato, (their then great white hope), they orchestrated the move to the 'safer' 800cc bikes to suit not only Pedrosa, but other diminutive riders plucked from the two stroke GP feeder classes. Remember it was written in Honda's script that Dani would win the title if not in his debut year, then '07 for sure. They certainly had little faith in the direction they'd taken with Nicky once it became clear that the 990's were history. I believe the '07 800 was definitely designed around Dani which is why they appeared to underestimate the opposition, sacrificing top end grunt for outright handling, believing that such factors as aerodynamics, corner speed and stability on the brakes would prevail. It does make sense that their strategy should fit one person, one that was immediately to hand, and an entire host of future midget clones waiting in the sidelines. The measurements may have been similar Babel, but the characteristics were a world apart.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Mar 10 2009, 08:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Although HRC have always propounded the theory that their engineering input is the domineering factor over their rider input, I could quite easily subscribe to the fact that they were developing a one rider strategy based around Pedrosa.
I agree with that one. They clearly saw Haydens victory as a one off, a lucky shot if you like and they obviously put their hopes in Dani for '07.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>They were the chief architects behind the adoption this formula, and quite feasibly bought about this paradigm shift with a view to signing up and capitalizing on the plethora of jockey sized two stroke riders ready to make their mark in the<strike> big</strike> sorry, slightly bigger class. So following the untimely death of Kato, (their then great white hope), they orchestrated the move to the 'safer' 800cc bikes to suit not only Pedrosa, but other diminutive riders plucked from the two stroke GP feeder classes.
Now you are painting free hand. If Honda wanted smaller bikes that really fitted Pedrosa they would have gone for 600cc, 20 - 30 kg lighter + + . The reality is that they kept the measurments, they kept the weight and took away less than 20% from a 250hp bike. They would have to be mathematical idots if they thought that would be a walk in the park for the smallest rider available. The much more likely reason were that they wanted the same engineering advantage they had with the 211. As the most resourcefull company they should have been able to pull that off. As we know they failed.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>Remember it was written in Honda's script that Dani would win the title if not in his debut year, then '07 for sure. They certainly had little faith in the direction they'd taken with Nicky once it became clear that the 990's were history. I believe the '07 800 was definitely designed around Dani which is why they appeared to underestimate the opposition, sacrificing top end grunt for outright handling, believing that such factors as aerodynamics, corner speed and stability on the brakes would prevail. It does make sense that their strategy should fit one person, one that was immediately to hand, and an entire host of future midget clones waiting in the sidelines. The measurements may have been similar Babel, but the characteristics were a world apart.
Hummm, top end grunt, what's that? They were second to Ducati in speed and acceleartion. They surly underestimated Ducati but who didn't? You suggest that was just a masqurade, and that they bet all their money on the rider and not the bike this time around?
If you look back at the 211 period you would see that Honda had success with many teams. Repsol competed two other honda teams mingeling on the podium, as they entered the 800 aera they should go for one single rider? And for the record, there are none like Pedrosa waiting to get up from the 250's. I belive Stoner are as close as you get regarding weight. In 250 you had/have guys like Dovi, Kallio and Simonchelli. Hardly midget clones that would fit "Dani's" bike, and that's exactly why it never exsisted. It 's a bike made for average motoGP riders. And for the record, one other thing they admitted they got wrong were the aero dynamics that they put very little thought in at the release of the 211.
It only excist in Hayden fans mind because they cant get to grip with the fact that Honda didn't put Hayden as their no 1 rider after '06. I agree that it probarbly was a misstake but this discussion is not about what Honda should have done.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Mar 10 2009, 08:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I agree with that one. They clearly saw Haydens victory as a one off, a lucky shot if you like and they obviously put their hopes in Dani for '07.

Now you are painting free hand. If Honda wanted smaller bikes that really fitted Pedrosa they would have gone for 600cc, 20 - 30 kg lighter + + . The reality is that they kept the measurments, they kept the weight and took away less than 20% from a 250hp bike. They would have to be mathematical idots if they thought that would be a walk in the park for the smallest rider available. The much more likely reason were that they wanted the same engineering advantage they had with the 211. As the most resourcefull company they should have been able to pull that off. As we know they failed.

Hummm, top end grunt, what's that? They were second to Ducati in speed and acceleartion. They surly underestimated Ducati but who didn't? You suggest that was just a masqurade, and that they bet all their money on the rider and not the bike this time around?
If you look back at the 211 period you would see that Honda had success with many teams. Repsol competed two other honda teams mingeling on the podium, as they entered the 800 aera they should go for one single rider? And for the record, there are none like Pedrosa waiting to get up from the 250's. I belive Stoner are as close as you get regarding weight. In 250 you had/have guys like Dovi, Kallio and Simonchelli. Hardly midget clones that would fit "Dani's" bike, and that's exactly why it never exsisted. It 's a bike made for average motoGP riders. And for the record, one other thing they admitted they got wrong were the aero dynamics that they put very little thought in at the release of the 211.
It only excist in Hayden fans mind because they cant get to grip with the fact that Honda didn't put Hayden as their no 1 rider after '06. I agree that it probarbly was a misstake but this discussion is not about what Honda should have done.
Good answers Babel, but I would contend that Honda were only second to Ducati on speed and acceleration towards the end of the season. I certainly remember the 'sprung' bike which Pedrosa won on at Valencia securing his second place in the Championship being damn quick.

Also there's no evidence that HRC were ever coveting riders such as Scimonceli and Kalio in '07. Dovi delivered them a title, and stayed loyal, but I'm not sure that his progression to Moto GP was a foregone conclusion or mapped out as early as '07. Look no further than Puig and Jara's latest prodigy Mark Marquez (who makes Pedrosa look like Shawn Bradley) as an indication as to where their vision of the future idealised HRC rider might lie.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Austin @ Mar 11 2009, 04:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>That's the gripe Hayden fans have with Honda. They said the 212 was designed with smaller riders in mind, Hayden is not a smaller rider but he was the world champion. Someone explain that logic to me.


I can explain their logic ..... its the logic of "the law" or in engineering terms "the Layman". It works by dreaming up a fairytale then adopting/misinterpreting "facts" to suit the outcome you wish to push.

It makes no sense ...... bu usually reverts to name calling pretty quick ( the real "substance" of their opinion :rolleyes ):

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 10 2009, 09:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I can explain their logic ..... its the logic of "the law" or in engineering terms "the Layman". It works by dreaming up a fairytale then adopting/misinterpreting "facts" to suit the outcome you wish to push.

It makes no sense ...... bu usually reverts to name calling pretty quick ( the real "substance" of their opinion :rolleyes ):
so thats your explanation? "the layman"? ie a fairytale....

says it all to me...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigAl @ Mar 11 2009, 08:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>says it all to me...



Well there you go ..... thats all the "fact" a "layman" would need.

couldn't you take in a bit more information before you declare "thats all you need"?


It seems stupid to start going over all this again, but here's a few problems/discrepencies with the theory:

1. Its so easy to change things like rider position on a bike ( hell ducati's come with it on their road machines ) why would Haydens crew not adjust these for him?

2, Its so easy to lengthen frame ...... why would Haydens crew not get these things done for him?

3. Its so easy to change a swingarm ........ why would Haydens crew not get this done for him?


It is a motogp team ..... Repsol in fact ..... you are suggesting that Honda deliberately stopped Haydens crew putting ( or even adjusting the parts ) on his bike when needed.

One minute you are telling us that Hayden was the "test mule" and "developed the bike" ..... then you are saying the guy had no input and was riding a bike made for Pedrosa ....... thats a pretty stupid proposition right there!


Though I can think of one case where Hayden did get a new part before Pedrosa ...... and even against Honda's engineers recommendations ...... ( the pneumo engine episode )


SO who did develop the Honda? Was Pedrosa the development rider? or Hayden? I'd hate to be a Hypocrite!


I think in fact Hayden is just a victiom of the old equation

Power =( Force X Distance ) / time

(where time is what you want Hayden to be lesser than .... )

Where P remains constant ( what the bike provides )

Distance is the race length say ( or even just the start straight say but its the same for .... and Hayd. )

therefore we are left with Force:

from the above Force( P ) must = Force ( H )

and Force = mass X Acceleration

SO we also know that Hayden is say 70kg and .... 50kg. ........ thats a ....'n huge difference! ........ so Pedrosa will always have more acceleration.

We could go further Acceleration = change in speed/ time ........ but meh! if you can't see the "real" problem by now .......

maybe this will help:

How fast do you reckon he is?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 10 2009, 09:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well there you go ..... thats all the "fact" a "layman" would need.

couldn't you take in a bit more information before you declare "thats all you need"?
WTF?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Arrabbiata1 @ Mar 10 2009, 10:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Good answers Babel, but I would contend that Honda were only second to Ducati on speed and acceleration towards the end of the season. I certainly remember the 'sprung' bike which Pedrosa won on at Valencia securing his second place in the Championship being damn quick.

Also there's no evidence that HRC were ever coveting riders such as Scimonceli and Kalio in '07. Dovi delivered them a title, and stayed loyal, but I'm not sure that his progression to Moto GP was a foregone conclusion or mapped out as early as '07. Look no further than Puig and Jara's latest prodigy Mark Marquez (who makes Pedrosa look like Shawn Bradley) as an indication as to where their vision of the future idealised HRC rider might lie.
Who were faster than Honda at the start? In race 3? they were in china. Pedrosa passed Rossi about 10 times on the straight and Rossi passed Pedrosa just as many times on the brakes inot turn 1. Sure didn't look like the honda were doen on power to the yamaha.

Well, I just used examples of hot candidates after '07. I'd say Dovi is a bit closer to being a factory rider then Mark Marquez, don't you? It's very far from a grid full with midget honda riders in the 250 class aspiering for the title, is there?

Puig and Pedrosa is on their way out of the HRC system, wait and see.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 10 2009, 09:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well there you go ..... thats all the "fact" a "layman" would need.

couldn't you take in a bit more information before you declare "thats all you need"?


It seems stupid to start going over all this again, but here's a few problems/discrepencies with the theory:

1. Its so easy to change things like rider position on a bike ( hell ducati's come with it on their road machines ) why would Haydens crew not adjust these for him?

2, Its so easy to lengthen frame ...... why would Haydens crew not get these things done for him?

3. Its so easy to change a swingarm ........ why would Haydens crew not get this done for him?


It is a motogp team ..... Repsol in fact ..... you are suggesting that Honda deliberately stopped Haydens crew putting ( or even adjusting the parts ) on his bike when needed.

One minute you are telling us that Hayden was the "test mule" and "developed the bike" ..... then you are saying the guy had no input and was riding a bike made for Pedrosa ....... thats a pretty stupid proposition right there!


Though I can think of one case where Hayden did get a new part before Pedrosa ...... and even against Honda's engineers recommendations ...... ( the pneumo engine episode )


SO who did develop the Honda? Was Pedrosa the development rider? or Hayden? I'd hate to be a Hypocrite!

Actually Barry, I disagree with you here and strongly believe you are wrong. You mentioned three things that are 'so easy' to change when in fact its quite the opposite

1. Its so easy to change things like rider position on a bike ( hell ducati's come with it on their road machines ) why would Haydens crew not adjust these for him?

Yes sure its easy to think about changing a riders position but actually incorporating it into a prototype racing bike without affecting some other aspect is not. If you alter the riding position you are in to altering fairings, footpeg positions, seating positions and more importantly, the centre of gravity of the bike which it turn affects its pitch sensitivity, ability to turn and such


2, Its so easy to lengthen frame ...... why would Haydens crew not get these things done for him?

Again not so easy, lengthening the frame means Honda would have to make unique parts just for Haydens bike that couldnt be used on any other RC212 and again this would cause a shift in chassis balance that would then need to be adressed, see above.

3. Its so easy to change a swingarm ........ why would Haydens crew not get this done for him?
Ok this is the easiest of the options, but then changing a swingarm was probably not the cause of the problems and hence why it wasn't changed.

As my late, great engineering lecturer tought me: In engineering you don't get something for nothing.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (#22 @ Mar 10 2009, 11:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Actually Barry, I disagree with you here and strongly believe you are wrong. You mentioned three things that are 'so easy' to change when in fact its quite the opposite

1. Its so easy to change things like rider position on a bike ( hell ducati's come with it on their road machines ) why would Haydens crew not adjust these for him?

Yes sure its easy to think about changing a riders position but actually incorporating it into a prototype racing bike without affecting some other aspect is not. If you alter the riding position you are in to altering fairings, footpeg positions, seating positions and more importantly, the centre of gravity of the bike which it turn affects its pitch sensitivity, ability to turn and such

Well, I guess the over all goal would be to lengthen the tank, moving clip-ons forward and seat backward. All in all room for a larger rider without altering the COG much.
They did it in a matter of days for Rossi both at Yamaha and Honda, so it can't be that hard.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (#22 @ Mar 11 2009, 09:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Actually Barry, I disagree with you here and strongly believe you are wrong. You mentioned three things that are 'so easy' to change when in fact its quite the opposite

1. Its so easy to change things like rider position on a bike ( hell ducati's come with it on their road machines ) why would Haydens crew not adjust these for him?

Yes sure its easy to think about changing a riders position but actually incorporating it into a prototype racing bike without affecting some other aspect is not. If you alter the riding position you are in to altering fairings, footpeg positions, seating positions and more importantly, the centre of gravity of the bike which it turn affects its pitch sensitivity, ability to turn and such

So all riders in MGP must do that ...... and indeed I don't know of many racing formulas that riders don't do that ( except for say Pee Wee racers where dad can't be bothered ). WHy do you think Hayden is exempt from that process of setup? Why is Hayden distinctly disadvantaged by that setup process? You provided plenty more questions than answers



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (#22 @ Mar 11 2009, 09:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>
Again not so easy, lengthening the frame means Honda would have to make unique parts just for Haydens bike that couldnt be used on any other RC212 and again this would cause a shift in chassis balance that would then need to be adressed, see above.

This is MGP ..... on the world stage ...... to change a frame a pittance in time, cost, and effort. The development of that frame ....... well thats what MGP is all about! Are you saying Hayden/his crew doesn't want to have to develop his bike for himself? Are you proposing that the Honda engineers don't know that ..... and sent/forced him out there to ride on a bike that only suited Pedrosa

....... why would they spend a few dollars on hiring him ..... then do that?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (#22 @ Mar 11 2009, 09:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>3. Its so easy to change a swingarm ........ why would Haydens crew not get this done for him?
Ok this is the easiest of the options, but then changing a swingarm was probably not the cause of the problems and hence why it wasn't changed.

The word probably suggests "the unknown" so yes they may have and they may not have ..... but at this level, to not make what Hayden wants for Hayden ........ again why did they spend so much money hiring him? ANd then not spend the extra bit to give him the ride that makes it look like they know what they are doing?




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (#22 @ Mar 11 2009, 09:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>As my late, great engineering lecturer tought me: In engineering you don't get something for nothing.

haha straight away I can tell you have read some engineering books ............ like all engineers you can't spell!!

Well yes! and I'm sure your lecturer would say ..... apply this to ....... why did they hire Hayden then and not expect to have to put some work into getting things right for him ....... its a translatable point I guess ....... but nonetheless a point that backs the idea that the notion that Hayden had no "work" done for him preposterous

when this post first appeared, it was this only..<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BarryMachine @ Mar 10 2009, 09:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Well there you go ..... thats all the "fact" a "layman" would need.

couldn't you take in a bit more information before you declare "thats all you need"?

and then after my replies, it now contains this as well..

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE <div class='quotemain'>It seems stupid to start going over all this again, but here's a few problems/discrepencies with the theory:

1. Its so easy to change things like rider position on a bike ( hell ducati's come with it on their road machines ) why would Haydens crew not adjust these for him?

2, Its so easy to lengthen frame ...... why would Haydens crew not get these things done for him?

3. Its so easy to change a swingarm ........ why would Haydens crew not get this done for him?


It is a motogp team ..... Repsol in fact ..... you are suggesting that Honda deliberately stopped Haydens crew putting ( or even adjusting the parts ) on his bike when needed.

One minute you are telling us that Hayden was the "test mule" and "developed the bike" ..... then you are saying the guy had no input and was riding a bike made for Pedrosa ....... thats a pretty stupid proposition right there!


Though I can think of one case where Hayden did get a new part before Pedrosa ...... and even against Honda's engineers recommendations ...... ( the pneumo engine episode )


SO who did develop the Honda? Was Pedrosa the development rider? or Hayden? I'd hate to be a Hypocrite!


I think in fact Hayden is just a victiom of the old equation

Power =( Force X Distance ) / time

(where time is what you want Hayden to be lesser than .... )

Where P remains constant ( what the bike provides )

Distance is the race length say ( or even just the start straight say but its the same for .... and Hayd. )

therefore we are left with Force:

from the above Force( P ) must = Force ( H )

and Force = mass X Acceleration

SO we also know that Hayden is say 70kg and .... 50kg. ........ thats a ....'n huge difference! ........ so Pedrosa will always have more acceleration.

We could go further Acceleration = change in speed/ time ........ but meh! if you can't see the "real" problem by now .......

maybe this will help:

How fast do you reckon he is?

thats one sneaky edit barry....... and fairly dishonest too.

the end.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigAl @ Mar 11 2009, 07:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>when this post first appeared, it was this only..

and then after my replies, it now contains this as well..



thats one sneaky edit barry....... and fairly dishonest too.

the end.



+1

As a sidenote, my superkart (125cc) has to run 23kg of lead to meet the weight limit and some testing we did at Cadwell Park found that for every 10kg we lost 0.2s a lap, and this is on a machine with far better turning and stopping grip than a MotoGP machine.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (#22 @ Mar 11 2009, 09:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>+1

As a sidenote, my superkart (125cc) has to run 23kg of lead to meet the weight limit and some testing we did at Cadwell Park found that for every 10kg we lost 0.2s a lap, and this is on a machine with far better turning and stopping grip than a MotoGP machine.

But direct comparison is impossible. To adjust for the added grip, try 400bhp on the same cart and see if weight means as much. In addition, on a cart the body acts almost like dead weight monted on the cart. A rider on a bike is not anything like that. In fact I miss any good article discussing how the rider influence grip, suspension, braking and acceleration and how that influence vary with weight of the rider.
Pedrosa has shown us time after time that he has not only advantages with his low weight but also some serious disadvantagees, mostly in braking and quick direction changes.

People here seems to forget that for 90% of the time these bikes have more power than the tires can handle. That will strongly influence the low weight advantage for acceleration and limit it to only kick in at higher gears.

You pricks should discuss something where you won't argue so much.... try politics or religion !!!
Couple of comments, for what the are worth.

1. Even if the dimensions were similar, there was a big difference between the 2006 Honda and the 2007 Honda. minus abt 50 Hp and minus about 15 kg. Clearly Honda thought the future on 800's was smaller framed, lighter riders (like 250's)
Pedro was their man, and with the insistance of Puig, the bike was structured around Pedro's requirements. Hayden understandably got the ..... because he was WC, and was being bumped to No. 2 in the team. Secondly he was dealing with Pedro and Puig, who are clowns.
Probably Honda also felt Pedro was a better rider than Hayden (right or wrong), and the future in 800cc racing.... and certainly with the market in Spain probably more important to their marketing and imiage (remember - racing is to sell bikes).

2. Clearly Honda thought they would be tops in 2007, with the new 800cc formula. No one expected Stoner and Ducati to be so fast - but I think this was as much Stoner as Ducati (a whole other argument). What would Stoner have done on a factory Honda or Yamaha.

3. There are a few more than 50 MotoGP fans (and SBK fans) in Australia. You will see them at Phillip Is in October. Think last year about 150,000 on Sunday. And the numbers were almost the same befoe Stoner. Even though MotoGP and SBK gets little coverage in the main media in Aust there are plenty of bike nuts in Aust.

4. I think .... fits with the Japanese mindset..... at least until they get tired of him not getting results, and then he will be harpooned and sold as fish.

NUTS

I think, contrary to what they believe themselves, HRC NEEDS a rider (and crew) strong enough to change the bike they way THEY want (ex. Lawson & Erv et al, Doohan & Jeremy et al, Rossi & Jeremy et al). It seems the current crop of Honda riders just ride the damn thing as it is, or that none of them know what to do in order to make it fast.

Puig-Pedrosa looks to be strong enough to influence the development direction, but pedrosa seems to be injury prone during pre-season development, often leaving development to his team-mate. Or him et al just have no idea what the direction should be.

As for Dovi, I sure hope he could at least end up as top Honda rider, maybe then they would develop the bike around him.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BigAl @ Mar 11 2009, 06:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>when this post first appeared, it was this only..

and then after my replies, it now contains this as well..



thats one sneaky edit barry....... and fairly dishonest too.

the end.



Sorry ...... must admit was one of those "blind ole me" hit "Add reply" instead of "preview" ..... too early .... and edited as you were typing ..... Was in ahurry too this morning so just ploughed on through ....... but the added bit doesn't affect what you commented on anyway

You are bloody "keen" to have picked it up though!! I typed that last bit pretty rushedly

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nuts @ Mar 11 2009, 08:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>1. Even if the dimensions were similar, there was a big difference between the 2006 Honda and the 2007 Honda. minus abt 50 Hp and minus about 15 kg.

This I think is the single most detrimental thing to Hayden .... especially when he was then being compared to a 50kg rider.

Hayden was one of the biggest "victims" of the change to 800's, Rossi was pretty affected too. But he was not being constantly compared to Pedrosa.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Babelfish @ Mar 11 2009, 09:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>But direct comparison is impossible. To adjust for the added grip, try 400bhp on the same cart and see if weight means as much. In addition, on a cart the body acts almost like dead weight monted on the cart. A rider on a bike is not anything like that. In fact I miss any good article discussing how the rider influence grip, suspension, braking and acceleration and how that influence vary with weight of the rider.
Pedrosa has shown us time after time that he has not only advantages with his low weight but also some serious disadvantagees, mostly in braking and quick direction changes.

People here seems to forget that for 90% of the time these bikes have more power than the tires can handle. That will strongly influence the low weight advantage for acceleration and limit it to only kick in at higher gears.

Thats why i said 'as a sidenote', I wasn't trying to compare it

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nuts @ Mar 11 2009, 10:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>3. There are a few more than 50 MotoGP fans (and SBK fans) in Australia. You will see them at Phillip Is in October. Think last year about 150,000 on Sunday. And the numbers were almost the same befoe Stoner. Even though MotoGP and SBK gets little coverage in the main media in Aust there are plenty of bike nuts in Aust.
I am someone who only became a keen bike-racing fan when an australian rider started doing well, but in my case it was wayne gardner. Of course there are more than 50 motogp fans in australia (apart from anything else many gardner and doohan fans are actually still alive ), and there are several motorcycle magazines, a couple of which have quite reasonable circulation by australian standards.

I wasn't at PI in 2007, but I am told by mates who did go that even in stoner's championship year there was more rossi yellow than stoner/ ducati red, and to my knowledge rossi has always been revered by australian bike fans.