Doohan - Stoner could break all my records...and Rossi's

digger · Oct 7, 2011

Yes birdman, you are right, I was about to add something to what I just wrote

I was about to say by halfway through 2008 it would have been clear that trellis was no longer the way forward due to the nature of a peaky high powered 800cc. It would have been hard for ducati to keep up with the japansese deltabox's that could cope with the extra cornering forces. I am assuming that the trellis could no longer be developed any further and that is why the bucket of .... that we now have exists. That is when I believe it became a career killer, before then I think it was a reasonable bike. Casey was still the deciding factor though, not taking anything away from him.

and the 990 version of it was still to this day the baddest ....... bike ever to grace planet earth. That thing coming down gardner straight at 330kmh was a religious experience haha

xx CURVE xx · Oct 7, 2011

birdman said:

thats a ....... badass pic.. looks like art and ... and the devil and god on 2 wheels..

bikes give me a boner...

povol · Oct 7, 2011

digger said:
But can it have been that different to the last 990 ducati which was ridden to a handful of wins in 2006? I wouldnt think so personally. Same basic layout, and it also would have benefitted from the marvel 4 (?) ecu that was developed at the end of the 990 era. Seeing as though ducati stayed with this setup from 990 to the 800, that says to me that they were happy with what they had, so they continued to use it for the foreseeable future.

Then if you take into account the years since ducati first came back into gp's, it isnt too bad a bike either. Considering aswell that the Japanese factories have been at this gp thing in all the years during ducati's absence, they managed to make quite a good machine in my opinion.

That to me says that the trellis duke was already a successful bike, but Stoner just put the icing on the cake so to speak.

At the trellis stage in its life, it definatley couldnt be called a "career killer" like it has been in recent times.

The difference between a 250-260 hp engine and the torque that goes along with it, compared to a 220-230 hp engine with much less torque, not only could make the bike behave differently, but more than likely did.

hawkdriver · Oct 7, 2011

birdman said:
Because Rossi has trained us to see only black and ~~white~~ yellow. Before finding PS (by accident) I thought I was alone inhabiting a world of zombies. Then I read some of Jumkies posts on the mousetrap theory and thought praise the Lord someone else see's the light haha.

We arent supposed to see the shades of grey. Only now with Rossi on Ducati they cant be ignored. Its highlighted the privealeged few who actually get a chance to contend for the motogp title against the so called lesser riding grid fillers. Are they really?

If you do see the shades of grey you may come to realise the best rider the world has ever seen, the true GOAT, alien, the one who could actually win on any bike on the grid doesnt exist.

Stoner is the closest Ive seen to being the one. All he needs to do in my mind is one year on the Suzuki before he retires. If he can win on that then I dont care how many titles he has vs Doohan, Rossi or whoever.

Jumkie and a few others are always going on about Rossi but how did Nicky, Jlo, and Casey manage to beat him if things were that way? The real problem with the so called grid fillers is that they're riding on leased bikes that will never again keep up with the factory rides, not Rossi's fault, blame the MSMA. People say Rossi has all this power but he couldn't keep Jlo off the M1 or from getting the same updates he did. Your first job is to beat your team mate and it doesn't look to me that Yamaha or Ducati have any stupid team rules like Jumkie likes to suggest.

digger · Oct 7, 2011

povol said:
The difference between a 250-260 hp engine and the torque that goes along with it, compared to a 220-230 hp engine with much less torque, not only could make the bike behave differently, but more than likely did.

Do doubt Pov. Like I said above, maybe at the start of the 800cc era, the trellis could cope with the differences, but as time went on and the Japanese started to get their heads around the new system, their bikes got quicker and handled better, and so duke were forced to try something new to keep up.

bluegreen · Oct 7, 2011

povol said:
I believe that without Stoner on the 07 Ducati, it is nowhere. All you have to do is look at where the next factory Ducat finished and you will see that both Honda's and both Suzuki's and Rossi's Yamaha finished ahead of the Ducati's not ridden by Stoner. Stoner was good enough to keep the Duc close enough to use its one advantage, straight speed. Capirossi's bike had the same speed as Stoners, yet he was nowhere.

I think if you want to compare bikes and not riders you should look at the number 2 teammates result.

07

Capirossi 166 pts , 1 win, 4 podiums

Edwards 124 pts , 0 wins, 2 podiums

The Duke was a better bike that year. Does ducati win the championship without stoner? No, but does Yamaha win in 08 without Valentino? No. It's not just the bike and it's not just the rider. Being on the best bike doesn't take away from a riders achievement.

birdman · Oct 7, 2011

hawkdriver said:
Jumkie and a few others are always going on about Rossi but how did Nicky, Jlo, and Casey manage to beat him if things were that way? The real problem with the so called grid fillers is that they're riding on leased bikes that will never again keep up with the factory rides, not Rossi's fault, blame the MSMA. People say Rossi has all this power but he couldn't keep Jlo off the M1 or from getting the same updates he did. Your first job is to beat your team mate and it doesn't look to me that Yamaha or Ducati have any stupid team rules like Jumkie likes to suggest.

Ask KRj. Because they were the privileged few. Of course its the MSMA's fault. I dont remember Rossi complaining until this year. He had little sympathy for Biaggi. Before Rossi I had never heard of a GOAT. Doohan, Rainey, Lawson were just known as racers. Clearly Rossi wants to be seen as the GOAT and thought Ducati was his chance. Instead he's proved the mousetrap means most riders arent in contention by design, as you've pointed out on leased bikes. So there is no GOAT or sole alien.

michaelm · Oct 7, 2011

bluegreen said:
I think if you want to compare bikes and not riders you should look at the number 2 teammates result.

07

Capirossi 166 pts , 1 win, 4 podiums

Edwards 124 pts , 0 wins, 2 podiums

The Duke was a better bike that year. Does ducati win the championship without stoner? No, but does Yamaha win in 08 without Valentino? No. It's not just the bike and it's not just the rider. Being on the best bike doesn't take away from a riders achievement.

No problem at all with this; rather than arguing about bike advantages the question is how well the rider did given the equipment available to them, and I think it is hard to see anyone doing better than stoner on the 2007 ducati or rossi on the 2008 yamaha.

michaelm · Oct 7, 2011

michaelm said:
No problem at all with this; rather than arguing about bike advantages the question is how well the rider did given the equipment available to them, and I think it is hard to see anyone doing better than stoner on the 2007 ducati or rossi on the 2008 yamaha.

J4rn0 · Oct 7, 2011

povol said:
I believe that without Stoner on the 07 Ducati, it is nowhere. All you have to do is look at where the next factory Ducat finished and you will see that both Honda's and both Suzuki's and Rossi's Yamaha finished ahead of the Ducati's not ridden by Stoner. Stoner was good enough to keep the Duc close enough to use its one advantage, straight speed. Capirossi's bike had the same speed as Stoners, yet he was nowhere.

That's a weak argument. Look to where the next Yamaha was in 2007, it wasn't closer than the next Ducati. And where would Yamaha be this year without Lorenzo? Spies' Yamaha in 2011 looks as good as Capirossi's Ducati in 2007. One win, a couple podiums. Better riders do exist, that's the truth -- it's not only Stoner that can make the difference, for all I like him. And to win titles, any rider needs at least competitive equipment.

birdman · Oct 8, 2011

We're not just comparing Edwards here.

Capirossi finished 3rd in 2006. We cant use him to compare with Stoner in 2007? Melandri finished second in 2005. Can we use him to compare him with Stoner in 08? Nope.

Ok, Valentino Rossi finished 2nd in 2006, 3rd 2007, 1st 2008, 1st 2009, 3rd 2010. Surely we can we use him to compare with Stoner on Ducati? Where is Rossi atm. Damn, 7th.

Is that enough better riders. Can we now finally conclude the Ducati is not, never has been a weapon, including 2007, for it has always contained the flawed frame concept.

But wait a minute, Hayden finished 1st in 2006. Can we compare him with Stoner? Yes, he's done the best out of any team mate Stoner had. Well done Hayden.

stiefel · Oct 8, 2011

digger said:
But can it have been that different to the last 990 ducati which was ridden to a handful of wins in 2006? I wouldnt think so personally. Same basic layout, and it also would have benefitted from the marvel 4 (?) ecu that was developed at the end of the 990 era. Seeing as though ducati stayed with this setup from 990 to the 800, that says to me that they were happy with what they had, so they continued to use it for the foreseeable future.

Then if you take into account the years since ducati first came back into gp's, it isnt too bad a bike either. Considering aswell that the Japanese factories have been at this gp thing in all the years during ducati's absence, they managed to make quite a good machine in my opinion.

That to me says that the trellis duke was already a successful bike, but Stoner just put the icing on the cake so to speak.

At the trellis stage in its life, it definatley couldnt be called a "career killer" like it has been in recent times.

Just in case there is confusion about this (and there has been in the past), the Yamaha's had the same ECU.

Goatboy · Oct 8, 2011

birdman said:
Can we now finally conclude the Ducati is not, never has been a weapon, including 2007, for it has always contained the flawed frame concept.

That asks the question what made the difference in 2007? Because that form, be it Stoner's or Ducati's, didn't go on to be replicated in subsequent years.

Was Casey's consistency pure luck in that the front end did not give way in 2007? Or was there a direction that was taken with the design that caused the flaws to be more pronounced?

Something changed between 2007 & 2008, otherwise the "new GOAT" would have cleaned up in '08, '09, & '10 & still be on a red machine now...cleaning up.

bluegreen · Oct 8, 2011

birdman said:
We're not just comparing Edwards here.

Capirossi finished 3rd in 2006. We cant use him to compare with Stoner in 2007? Melandri finished second in 2005. Can we use him to compare him with Stoner in 08? Nope.

Ok, Valentino Rossi finished 2nd in 2006, 3rd 2007, 1st 2008, 1st 2009, 3rd 2010. Surely we can we use him to compare with Stoner on Ducati? Where is Rossi atm. Damn, 7th.

Is that enough better riders. Can we now finally conclude the Ducati is not, never has been a weapon, including 2007, for it has always contained the flawed frame concept.

But wait a minute, Hayden finished 1st in 2006. Can we compare him with Stoner? Yes, he's done the best out of any team mate Stoner had. Well done Hayden.

You know that same frame concept is still on one of the worlds best streetbikes and currently kicking ... in WSBK right? It's not the same concept that Ducati has been running from 09 on? Jesus, this is pretty simple .... to grasp....

Trellis and carbon fiber monocoque. Not the same. Not at all. No amount of twisting and bending facts will change this.

Stoner is awesome! Like every other ....... frame discussion that happens on this board I have valided Stoner's greatness. Can we just pretend that any time somebody mentions a frame (be it Ducati, Honda or a ....... Schwinn) the poster has already sucked Stoners .... and we can save us all the time of having to read the same ....... preface?!?!?

Now having said all that. The frames are different, as different as diffentert can be.

Ok, time to throw up and pass the .... out. peace

birdman · Oct 8, 2011

Goatboy said:
That asks the question what made the difference in 2007? Because that form, be it Stoner's or Ducati's, didn't go on to be replicated in subsequent years.

Was Casey's consistency pure luck in that the front end did not give way in 2007? Or was there a direction that was taken with the design that caused the flaws to be more pronounced?

Something changed between 2007 & 2008, otherwise the "new GOAT" would have cleaned up in '08, '09, & '10 & still be on a red machine now...cleaning up.

Tyres I guess. Once the the handling weapon (Yamaha) got the same tyres, Ducati's stressed engine weapon only stressed its rider. The new goat thus failed. Now the old goat is also failing. So there is no goat?

birdman · Oct 8, 2011

xx CURVE xx said:
thats a ....... badass pic.. looks like art and ... and the devil and god on 2 wheels..

bikes give me a boner...

bluegreen said:
You know that same frame concept is still on one of the worlds best streetbikes and currently kicking ... in WSBK right? It's not the same concept that Ducati has been running from 09 on? Jesus, this is pretty simple .... to grasp....

Trellis and carbon fiber monocoque. Not the same. Not at all. No amount of twisting and bending facts will change this.

Stoner is awesome! Like every other ....... frame discussion that happens on this board I have valided Stoner's greatness. Can we just pretend that any time somebody mentions a frame (be it Ducati, Honda or a ....... Schwinn) the poster has already sucked Stoners .... and we can save us all the time of having to read the same ....... preface?!?!?

Now having said all that. The frames are different, as different as diffentert can be.

Ok, time to throw up and pass the .... out. peace

Ha ha can you two argue it out. Which bike is worthy of a boner........... which one makes you want to throw up and pass out?

I take the SBK for my bike .... collection, and throw up over the ~~GP11.1~~ GP07 hehe.

I dont think they are the same concept??????????????????????????

bluegreen · Oct 8, 2011

birdman said:
Ha ha can you two argue it out. Which bike is worthy of a boner........... which one makes you want to throw up and pass out?

I take the SBK for my bike .... collection, and throw up over the ~~GP11.1~~ GP07 hehe.

I dont think they are the same concept??????????????????????????

lol The GP11 bike, throw up and pass out.

1198 drool over.

Big difference

xx CURVE xx · Oct 8, 2011

a great looking machine always catches my eye but they dont all cook and clean

digger · Oct 8, 2011

birdman said:
Ha ha can you two argue it out. Which bike is worthy of a boner........... which one makes you want to throw up and pass out? I take the SBK for my bike .... collection, and throw up over the ~~GP11.1~~ GP07 hehe. I dont think they are the same concept??????????????????????????

birdman, sorry if i misunderstood you here but this is the gp07, the same concept as the wsbk has been since, ...., maybe the 888? and it is also the same concept they used when they re entered gp in 2003 i think. Someone might be able to correct me here. My initial question to Pov was regarding whether this bike, the trellis type, was equal to the japanese, and I said i believed it was up until early 2008.

birdman · Oct 8, 2011

digger said:
birdman, sorry if i misunderstood you here but this is the gp07, the same concept as the wsbk has been since, ...., maybe the 888? and it is also the same concept they used when they re entered gp in 2003 i think. Someone might be able to correct me here. My initial question to Pov was regarding whether this bike, the trellis type, was equal to the japanese, and I said i believed it was up until early 2008.

I too always assumed the gp07 had the same trellis frame as the SBK. But now I dont know? Can't find pictures of the GP07 frame.

From this it looks as though the GP07 was a lot different to the suberbike: they chopped the frame in half and left the swingarm and shock dangling out there with no frame to be seen, which I have seen refered to as a 'flaw' in design?:

The rear suspension geometry and layout is the same as that of the GP6, with the rear shock attached above the swingarm and to a rocker, which is hinged to the crankcase.

Whereas the 1198 frame goes all the way to the swingarm and shock, so it doesnt have the 'flaw' and is often reported as the best handling SBK in the field: well Checa seemed to think so.

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