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Doohan - Stoner could break all my records...and Rossi's

RCV600RR said:
Your making pretty big, blanket statements. Let's not exaggerate.



Stoner finished behind Rossi in the championship last year, even though Rossi was injured for much of the season (and missing for three races). By 2010, the Ducati/Stoner combination had serious difficulties.



The technical comparison between Yamaha and Ducati in 2007 and 2008 was not the same as 2009 and especially 2010.



In 2007, Capirossi still podiumed, won and led races. Barros even finished on the podium (beating Stoner) at Mugello. The GP7 was a bike that didn't handle like the M1, but had better rubber and MUCH more horsepower.



In 2008, Elias put it on the box a few times as well.
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And thats your defense that Ducati has not been a pos during the 800 era. You can bend and twist all you want, everyone knows Stoner whipped Rossi straight up the last 4 years in wins on inferior equipment, and is beating him like a borrowed mule now that the tables have been turned. As far as breaking records, its a pipe dream that he gets anywhere near Rossi in wins or titles. He might catch Doohan in wins, and depending on how long he can stomach the circus, could match him in titles. It would suck to see him walk away early, especially if he was still winning titles, but i sure as hell wouldnt hold it against him. Get what you feel you need and go to the house. Sounds like a plan.
 
RCV600RR said:
Barros even finished on the podium (beating Stoner) at Mugello. The GP7 was a bike that didn't handle like the M1, but had better rubber and MUCH more horsepower.
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Rossi may have had worse tyres than another rider in the field for one year? How very unjust.



Stoner didn't have better rubber than barros that day (good luck to alex for winning a tyre gamble), and didn't have better rubber than rossi on several days, granted that the bridgestones not surprisingly were probably suited to a larger range of conditions than the michelins once the saturday night specials were gone. Much like this year with a yamaha currently running second ahead of several hondas including 2 or 3 factory hondas, michelin riders were 2nd and 3rd in 2007 as it happens anyway.



The 2007ducati was invincible if you could ride it, but that is a rather large caveat. There is absolutely no evidence that rossi could have ridden it like stoner, and I wouldn't have said that before this year.
 
I'll be honest, to me Stoner is the true GOAT. But I look at the skills of the riders.



To me Stoner has greater skills than any rider there has ever been in GP.



Doohan was more "dogged" in his pursuit of a win.



Stoner can ride the bike just past its limits better than anyone, so he will always be the best ever development tool for any company. They have a rider who will always be better than their bike so can always improve.
 
BarryMachine said:
I'll be honest, to me Stoner is the true GOAT. But I look at the skills of the riders.



To me Stoner has greater skills than any rider there has ever been in GP.



Doohan was more "dogged" in his pursuit of a win.



Stoner can ride the bike just past its limits better than anyone, so he will always be the best ever development tool for any company. They have a rider who will always be better than their bike so can always improve.
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full_retard.jpg
 
BarryMachine said:
I'll be honest, to me Stoner is the true GOAT. But I look at the skills of the riders.



To me Stoner has greater skills than any rider there has ever been in GP.



Doohan was more "dogged" in his pursuit of a win.



Stoner can ride the bike just past its limits better than anyone, so he will always be the best ever development tool for any company. They have a rider who will always be better than their bike so can always improve.
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Can't ride the bridgestone soft tyre barry, or not at the same level anyway.



I get annoyed by the bike advantage argument, but that is a different issue. Whilst there is fairly good evidence rossi can't ride a ducati as well as him I don't think it is proven that stoner would ride a yamaha -type bike as well as rossi either.
 
povol said:
And thats your defense that Ducati has not been a pos during the 800 era.
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I didn't say that. You're putting words in my mouth mate. The 800 era lasted 5 years and the Ducati/Yamaha/Honda/Suzuki changed drastically in terms of competetiveness vis-a-vis each other during this period. That's what I said. The Ducati of 2007 with a much stronger engine (Even in 2008, the Ducati had a much stronger powerplant than the opposition) and better tyres than the opposition is not the same as the Ducati of 2010 and 2011. Ducati satellite riders like Barros and Elias finished on the podium (07 and 08), Capirossi smoked Rossi at Phillip Island in 2007, took podiums and won at Motegi and led other races. Nowadays, the Satellite riders usually occupy the bottom 4 positions on the grid.



povol said:
You can bend and twist all you want, everyone knows Stoner whipped Rossi straight up the last 4 years in wins on inferior equipment,
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Mate, the championship race is the goal, not wins. And to get championships, you can't crash, then win, then crash, then win. Stoner finished ahead in 2007, Rossi finished ahead in 2008, 2009 and 2010. You can't confine the comparison to one axis and ignore the most important axis (championship position).



I will never understand why people feel the need to put things in black and white. The truth is much more nuanced. This is the first year that he doesn't go to every race as a good chance to win. He has been the reference point since 2000 in the premier class. I'm not anyone's fanboy (I like Nicky the most, and also like Elias) but I don't feel the need to put Rossi down to acknowledge Casey's excellence.
 
michaelm said:
Can't ride the bridgestone soft tyre barry, or not at the same level anyway.



I get annoyed by the bike advantage argument, but that is a different issue. Whilst there is fairly good evidence rossi can't ride a ducati as well as him I don't think it is proven that stoner would ride a yamaha -type bike as well as rossi either.
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Michael, people have an inherent desire to simplify matters and view them in black and white. Stoner good, Rossi bad! Rossi good, Stoner bad! Reminds me of Animal Farm...(four legs good, two legs bad!).
 
RCV600RR said:
I didn't say that. You're putting words in my mouth mate. The 800 era lasted 5 years and the Ducati/Yamaha/Honda/Suzuki changed drastically in terms of competetiveness vis-a-vis each other during this period. That's what I said. The Ducati of 2007 with a much stronger engine (Even in 2008, the Ducati had a much stronger powerplant than the opposition) and better tyres than the opposition is not the same as the Ducati of 2010 and 2011. Ducati satellite riders like Barros and Elias finished on the podium (07 and 08), Capirossi smoked Rossi at Phillip Island in 2007, took podiums and won at Motegi and led other races. Nowadays, the Satellite riders usually occupy the bottom 4 positions on the grid.





Mate, the championship race is the goal, not wins. And to get championships, you can't crash, then win, then crash, then win. Stoner finished ahead in 2007, Rossi finished ahead in 2008, 2009 and 2010. You can't confine the comparison to one axis and ignore the most important axis (championship position).



I will never understand why people feel the need to put things in black and white. The truth is much more nuanced. This is the first year that he doesn't go to every race as a good chance to win. He has been the reference point since 2000 in the premier class. I'm not anyone's fanboy (I like Nicky the most, and also like Elias) but I don't feel the need to put Rossi down to acknowledge Casey's excellence.
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The championship is the goal, and here in about 3 weeks, those will be tied 2 to 2, with Stoner holding a huge advantage in the one other meaningful statistical category. All while riding inferior equipment for 80% of the era. He will be the undisputed king of the 800's. That is unless your talking to a Rossi fan, then he will argue that Rossi had more 2nd place finishes
<
 
povol said:
The championship is the goal, and here in about 3 weeks, those will be tied 2 to 2, with Stoner holding a huge advantage in the one other meaningful statistical category. All while riding inferior equipment for 80% of the era. He will be the undisputed king of the 800's. That is unless your talking to a Rossi fan, then he will argue that Rossi had more 2nd place finishes
<
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"here in about 3 weeks"



Stoner 2007 and 2011 = 2



Rossi 2008 and 2009 = 2
 
povol said:
The championship is the goal, and here in about 3 weeks, those will be tied 2 to 2, with Stoner holding a huge advantage in the one other meaningful statistical category. All while riding inferior equipment for 80% of the era. He will be the undisputed king of the 800's. That is unless your talking to a Rossi fan, then he will argue that Rossi had more 2nd place finishes
<
Click to expand...



Do you count the trellis framed ducati as inferior equipment, par with the japs, or better than the rest? Not trying to take the piss, im just interested.
 
RCV600RR said:
Your making pretty big, blanket statements. Let's not exaggerate.



Stoner finished behind Rossi in the championship last year, even though Rossi was injured for much of the season (and missing for three races). By 2010, the Ducati/Stoner combination had serious difficulties.



The technical comparison between Yamaha and Ducati in 2007 and 2008 was not the same as 2009 and especially 2010.



In 2007, Capirossi still podiumed, won and led races. Barros even finished on the podium (beating Stoner) at Mugello. The GP7 was a bike that didn't handle like the M1, but had better rubber and MUCH more horsepower.



In 2008, Elias put it on the box a few times as well.
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The 2007 Duc had massive engine advantage over the others, in both horsepower and fuel efficiency. Yamaha was also experimenting with the engine springs for most of the season and gave up on their springs to use pneumatics when Rossi had an engine blow during a race. The M1 has always been down on hp compared to the others. At the end of last year JB said the M1 would not be competitive this year because of the engine, he has been right. Yamaha has also stated that they wanted to build a V4 but they weren't going to have the resources to build the engine for one year of racing. The I4 will be more competitive next year because of the rev and fuel limit.

If you look at wins and finishing position for each factory during the 800cc era you can easily see when the Japanese started to gain ground on the Duc, and Honda took the final step last year when they ditched their own electronics in favor of the magneti mareli that Yamaha and Duc have been using. Now it's Ducati's turn to play catch up and they are doing in season experimenting just like Honda and Yamaha have done.
 
digger said:
Do you count the trellis framed ducati as inferior equipment, par with the japs, or better than the rest? Not trying to take the piss, im just interested.
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I believe that without Stoner on the 07 Ducati, it is nowhere. All you have to do is look at where the next factory Ducat finished and you will see that both Honda's and both Suzuki's and Rossi's Yamaha finished ahead of the Ducati's not ridden by Stoner. Stoner was good enough to keep the Duc close enough to use its one advantage, straight speed. Capirossi's bike had the same speed as Stoners, yet he was nowhere.
 
I disagree (and im not trying to start a fight here either mate haha). Loris, had 4 dnfs that year, a win and a handful of podiums. That to me, is a pretty successful year.



Alex Barros also wasnt too bad, with 4 dnfs, he still managed a podium and to come in 10th place in the championship, not too bad for a satelite bike that spent alot of time on its side
<




Given that it had the same basic principle in its design brief as the gp 06 and 05, which was also very successful, I would have to say it was as good as the Japs. I wouldnt say it was better, the rider obviously made the difference there, but it is clearly a different animal to the POS that they put on the grid from 09 onwards.
 
Goatboy said:
You don't think he has been this year? Obviously it's not a Yamaha, but it is Japanese.
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I think the current honda is somewhere between the characteristics of the ducati when it was working well for him and the rossi developed yamaha. It obviously handles better than the ducati ever did, but still has raw power (good album btw) on which he thrives but other riders, dani pedrosa for instance, consider to be a flaw.



On tight tracks in cool conditions which don't suit the harder bridgestone tyre pedrosa and lorenzo can and do beat him; he can't seem to make the soft rear (whether or not underinflated
<
) go the distance with his riding style and preferred set-up, stiff chassis choice etc , and usually gets less advantage from the soft than the others do even in qualifying, although not so much the weekend gone. He was also beaten at some of the tighter tracks better suited to the michelins and the yamaha in 2007, not that those races didn't also involve rather good riding by the victor. The race where Barros famously beat him to the podium also involved tyres, alex electing for a different tyre choice to stoner and the rest of the bridgestone riders and different to the tyre choice recommended by bridgestone, and as I recall stoner ran out of tyres in that race.
 
RCV600RR said:
Michael, people have an inherent desire to simplify matters and view them in black and white. Stoner good, Rossi bad! Rossi good, Stoner bad! Reminds me of Animal Farm...(four legs good, two legs bad!).
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Because Rossi has trained us to see only black and white yellow. Before finding PS (by accident) I thought I was alone inhabiting a world of zombies. Then I read some of Jumkies posts on the mousetrap theory and thought praise the Lord someone else see's the light haha.

We arent supposed to see the shades of grey. Only now with Rossi on Ducati they cant be ignored. Its highlighted the privealeged few who actually get a chance to contend for the motogp title against the so called lesser riding grid fillers. Are they really?

If you do see the shades of grey you may come to realise the best rider the world has ever seen, the true GOAT, alien, the one who could actually win on any bike on the grid doesnt exist.

Stoner is the closest Ive seen to being the one. All he needs to do in my mind is one year on the Suzuki before he retires. If he can win on that then I dont care how many titles he has vs Doohan, Rossi or whoever.
 
digger said:
I disagree (and im not trying to start a fight here either mate haha). Loris, had 4 dnfs that year, a win and a handful of podiums. That to me, is a pretty successful year.



Alex Barros also wasnt too bad, with 4 dnfs, he still managed a podium and to come in 10th place in the championship, not too bad for a satelite bike that spent alot of time on its side
<




Given that it had the same basic principle in its design brief as the gp 06 and 05, which was also very successful, I would have to say it was as good as the Japs. I wouldnt say it was better, the rider obviously made the difference there, but it is clearly a different animal to the POS that they put on the grid from 09 onwards.
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You might want to check your family tree, that handful only had 3 fingers
<
. Capi had 1 wet win and 3 podiums , and when he wasnt crashing out, his normal spot was around 7-10th. You might want to ask yourself why he crashed out of 4 races. Probably the same reason Casey has crashed out of numerous races in his Ducati career, the bike was not the best, or equal to the other factory machines, Stoner just made it seem that way
<
 
But can it have been that different to the last 990 ducati which was ridden to a handful of wins in 2006? I wouldnt think so personally. Same basic layout, and it also would have benefitted from the marvel 4 (?) ecu that was developed at the end of the 990 era. Seeing as though ducati stayed with this setup from 990 to the 800, that says to me that they were happy with what they had, so they continued to use it for the foreseeable future.



Then if you take into account the years since ducati first came back into gp's, it isnt too bad a bike either. Considering aswell that the Japanese factories have been at this gp thing in all the years during ducati's absence, they managed to make quite a good machine in my opinion.



That to me says that the trellis duke was already a successful bike, but Stoner just put the icing on the cake so to speak.



At the trellis stage in its life, it definatley couldnt be called a "career killer" like it has been in recent times.
 
digger said:
But can it have been that different to the last 990 ducati which was ridden to a handful of wins in 2006? I wouldnt think so personally. Same basic layout, and it also would have benefitted from the marvel 4 (?) ecu that was developed at the end of the 990 era. Seeing as though ducati stayed with this setup from 990 to the 800, that says to me that they were happy with what they had, so they continued to use it for the foreseeable future.



Then if you take into account the years since ducati first came back into gp's, it isnt too bad a bike either. Considering aswell that the Japanese factories have been at this gp thing in all the years during ducati's absence, they managed to make quite a good machine in my opinion.



That to me says that the trellis duke was already a successful bike, but Stoner just put the icing on the cake so to speak.



At the trellis stage in its life, it definatley couldnt be called a "career killer" like it has been in recent times.
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Unless your name was Bayliss, Checa, Gibernau (990) or Capirossi, Melandri (800). Face it no matter what or when the stressed engine frame concept doesnt work. Look at the current SBK 1198: direct link of handlebars to swingarm.



Ducati_1198_SBK_by_dangeruss.jpg
 

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