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Doohan - Stoner could break all my records...and Rossi's

Mr Squiggle

Mr Squiggle

Joined Apr 2011
1K Posts | 87+
Pangea
"Stoner could easily surpass what I've done, and perhaps even Valentino Rossi" – Mick Doohan.



Mick has offered his opinion on whether Casey Stoner can continue winning and surpass his own and Valentino Rossis Premiere class win records.



Personally I dont agree with Mick on this point for one important reason.....I just dont think Casey will hang around long enough to do so....he might break Doohans records but as for Valentinos I just think he has racked up too many wins over the years to be challenged...especially with the quality of opposition around at the moment.



I reckon if Casey wins another few championships he will call it a day and retire to the farm with the wife and kid(s) knowing he doesnt need to prove a thing about his riding....most people understand statistics need to have context applied for any value as a guide to performance.....I would think having consistently beaten Rossi on inferior equipment (as this year has shown beyond any doubt) this probably means more to him than outright win tallies.



Anyway Mick....true GOAT and legend of the sport. I reckon you are wrong
<
 
Well Mick had it much easier than Rossi or Stoner. Mick basically only had to beat his soft teammate. Not even the other "works" Hondas were on par. I also doubt Stoner will stick around for long. Once he has his kid he might just quit and go fishing.
 
I think it's possible but not a great bet with things constantly changing in gp, the playing feild will be more even next year though with the engines all producing about the same hp thanks to the rev limit and fuel rules. People are forgetting that Jlo is no slouch and if he had more hp he probably gets a couple more wins this year. I think Casey is faster at more tracks but no doubt jlo sneaks a few in. There is also no telling what the final tire for next year will be like with BS saying the tires are still in development just like the bikes. Next year should be pretty interesting, Honda may start the year with a nice advantage thanks to their low pressure direct injection but the others will jump on the DI bandwagon if it turns out to be worth it.
 
Jumkie said:
Well Mick had it much easier than Rossi or Stoner. Mick basically only had to beat his soft teammate. Not even the other "works" Hondas were on par. I also doubt Stoner will stick around for long. Once he has his kid he might just quit and go fishing.
Click to expand...



I understand you are on a fishing expedition here as you do love a good .... stir but there is SOME truth to what you say. So lets disect what you have stated......



Well Mick had it much easier than Rossi or Stoner.



Not at the start of his career he didnt....during his period of domination - yes. But Doohan was beating exactly the same guys Rossi dealt with during his golden years - so he must have found it "easy" too. Doohan suffered a very bad leg injury and came back from the brink to dominate.... look what has happened to Rossi after breaking his leg. Not exactly the same comeback but that is because Rossi now has very stiff competition - he has only 2 championships since 2006 because of it.



Mick basically only had to beat his soft teammate.



This suggests there were only 2 riders competing in the championship...we all know that IS a crap statement.



Not even the other "works" Hondas were on par.



You obviously have access to a source of information I dont, because my recollection was he had equal equipment to pretty well all his team mates which included Gardner, Lawson, Barros, Beattie, Okada and Criville. Some of them also used to get his setup data at times after they had difficulty setting up their own bikes - hardly fair to him but all part of the game.



Quite probably Doohan had first dibs on any new go fast bits...it has always been like this, but in many instances Doohan rejected these parts and refined the package he already had. If you mean 1997 when he was the sole rider who rode the NSR500 screamer you are correct....but this was due to the other works riders (Okada and Criville) rejecting them because of fear....Doohan always said it was psychological more than a bike advantage as to why he chose the screamer.



Nice try Jumks but no biscuit
<
 
hawkdriver said:
I think it's possible but not a great bet with things constantly changing in gp, the playing feild will be more even next year though with the engines all producing about the same hp thanks to the rev limit and fuel rules. People are forgetting that Jlo is no slouch and if he had more hp he probably gets a couple more wins this year. I think Casey is faster at more tracks but no doubt jlo sneaks a few in. There is also no telling what the final tire for next year will be like with BS saying the tires are still in development just like the bikes. Next year should be pretty interesting, Honda may start the year with a nice advantage thanks to their low pressure direct injection but the others will jump on the DI bandwagon if it turns out to be worth it.
Click to expand...



Hey hawk...I didnt realise they were introducing a rev limit next year.....more dumbing down of the formula.



Any links to this rule change?



TIA.
 
I don't see Casey besting Rossi in this case. I think he's more talented than Rossi but not necessarily a better racer. Five more titles for Casey? I also don't think he'll stick around long enough to pull that off. I think the Yamaha will be better next season and Casey will have to push very hard to consistently beat Lorenzo, Speez and Dani. Throw in a little Sic once in a while and the race at the front looks to be a great deal more difficult. Casey will win his fair share but winning another 5 titles will take an extreme amount of patience and perseverance. I think Rossi had both and still does.



Casey has not demonstrated that capability...yet! He may but that's a big ask. I'd like to see it but in think speaking of it now is certainly premature.
 
Casey is only there proving things to himself. Once he is done or has satisfied his desire to race and achieve you will find him in a fishing or bow hunting magazine before AMCN.



I really don't think records mean diddly squat to him, unlike so many others.



A shame, he will (IMO) retire what most of us will judge to be prematurely.
 
Mr Squiggle said:
Hey hawk...I didnt realise they were introducing a rev limit next year.....more dumbing down of the formula.



Any links to this rule change?



TIA.
Click to expand...

It comes with the 81 mm stroke limit, the pistons can only go so fast! You'll have to ask someone smarter than me what that 81mm stroke will get you but I I've heard the maximum rpm will be around 16k. There is a formula that is based around the fastest known piston speeds, I'll see if I can find it for you.
 
birdman said:
Are they going to use valve springs or pneumatics on the 1000's?



http://motomatters.c...cylinders_.html
Click to expand...

I know you have to use pnuematics for reliability when your revs go beyond 17k rpm although yamaha had them working beyond this but gave up on using springs when Rossi had an engine blow. I'm not sure who will switch but I know Yamaha can work the standard springs if the rev limit ends up being the 16k that's being speculated.
 
hawkdriver said:
It comes with the 81 mm stroke limit, the pistons can only go so fast! You'll have to ask someone smarter than me what that 81mm stroke will get you but I I've heard the maximum rpm will be around 16k. There is a formula that is based around the fastest known piston speeds, I'll see if I can find it for you.
Click to expand...



Cheers Hawk but the link birdman left explains it all pretty well actually...it is a psuedo rev limit rule and actually the bore dimensions just make it harder to have higher engine revs unless you use very exotic lightweight materials due to the momentum from the piston moving up and down....it will probably just force those with already deep pockets to dig deeper and look at this as the solution - again we will probably see the opposite effect of keeping costs down as a consequence. Honda and Yamaha win again.
 
Here is the formula, you can plug in a mean piston speed of around 26-27m/s and that would give you a generous limit. GP is still allowed to use exotic matierials that have been banned by F1 so they should be able to get a higher mean piston speed than an F1 engine and from this article the F1 guys are saying they could exceed the current limits and go up to 22k rpm if F1 was unlimited.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_piston_speed

http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/comparison_of_cup_to_f1.htm
 
Mr Squiggle said:
Cheers Hawk but the link birdman left explains it all pretty well actually...it is a psuedo rev limit rule and actually the bore dimensions just make it harder to have higher engine revs unless you use very exotic lightweight materials due to the momentum from the piston moving up and down....it will probably just force those with already deep pockets to dig deeper and look at this as the solution - again we will probably see the opposite effect of keeping costs down as a consequence. Honda and Yamaha win again.
Click to expand...

Yeah it will still be somewhat usefull as they still have a fuel limit and they have only six engines, althought DI would let them run a little leaner at higher rpms. They still wont be going much faster than 26-27m/s mean piston speed, they aren't really limited now and non of them have gone above 19k rpm.
 
Good chance of reaching doohan's win tally if he races long enough.



Little chance of matching doohan's championship tally.



No chance of matching rossi's premier class win or championship tallies.
 
michaelm said:
Good chance of reaching doohan's win tally if he races long enough.



Little chance of matching doohan's championship tally.



No chance of matching rossi's premier class win or championship tallies.
Click to expand...



spot on, Mick D is hondaring again
 
michaelm said:
Good chance of reaching doohan's win tally if he races long enough.



Little chance of matching doohan's championship tally.





No chance of matching rossi's premier class win or championship tallies.
Click to expand...



I agree the competition is much tougher nowadays compared to when rossi acquired his tally..

 
"the competition now is much tighter/tougher" - ORLY?



But when Stoner wins - "the race was boring/it was a procession" - It's indeed a stiff competition!

lol.



Jebus, the site is full of contradiction.





I wouldn't disagree at some of the point you guys mentioned. I don't know Stoner can/wants to make it. He has the talent and he has the right bike for it. Which means he's capable of achieving it. But It's all "might's" or "maybe's", we really don't know for sure.



O hi! I new.
<


Cheers.
 
Mr Squiggle said:
I would think having consistently beaten Rossi on inferior equipment (as this year has shown beyond any doubt) this probably means more to him than outright win tallies.



Anyway Mick....true GOAT and legend of the sport. I reckon you are wrong
<
Click to expand...

Your making pretty big, blanket statements. Let's not exaggerate.



Stoner finished behind Rossi in the championship last year, even though Rossi was injured for much of the season (and missing for three races). By 2010, the Ducati/Stoner combination had serious difficulties.



The technical comparison between Yamaha and Ducati in 2007 and 2008 was not the same as 2009 and especially 2010.



In 2007, Capirossi still podiumed, won and led races. Barros even finished on the podium (beating Stoner) at Mugello. The GP7 was a bike that didn't handle like the M1, but had better rubber and MUCH more horsepower.



In 2008, Elias put it on the box a few times as well.
 

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