Dennis Noyes on spec ECU

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (motojt @ Jan 12 2008, 08:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Are we still going on about this Yamaka? It's late here so I'll make one final, ultimate point. Whatever.
Okey Dokey. As I am obviously a Rossi fanboy and cannot be objective I can understand why your ultimate point is "Whatever". Also I understand that your greater knowledge of the subject means that I will never be able to create an argument that is convincing to you.

No, I just don't enjoy arguing with people who change their points and/or twist their and others' words, so whatever is the best/only answer.

But in case your are curious:
1. You only agreed that rudimentary tc was fine after I had to explain 3 times why you can't disallow air/fuel per rpm. And to be frank, air-fuel per rpm is the same as air-fuel per wheel sensors (unless the chain breaks or there is a LOSS IN TRACTION), so it's not even that rudimentary.
2. You said the 800's lacked power. That was what I was referring to. Besides, do you also believe the 800's don't have more power than is usable? Modern 1000cc street bikes have more power than is usable so you're still wrong. Or do you think a GSX-R1000 also makes more power than an 800cc MotoGP racer?
3. This whole thing about single file races is ......... Let it go. There was plenty of passing this year. Not in the front because the leaders broke away most of the time. Maybe you're only paying attention to the lead guy?
4. My point was that you claim to know that many people switch from F1 to MotoGP because of passing. Who are the "many people" you refer to? You and your friend Neil and Bob? And I never said I never watched F1. I said I don't like it because it's "boring as hell." How did I form an opinions on this? Because I have watched it.
5. I have read posts where people either imply or state bias towards Rossi so me saying I'm sure I'm not the only person who thinks you're biased is based of me being able to read. Did you get a link to that pole on People Switching From F1 to MotoGP yet?
6. You left out some of your own words. You also said that F1 "... didn't push forward tc in road cars [sic]." That implies that development of tc in racing didn't have any effect on tc is street vehicles. So not true.
7. It doesn't matter how much anyone spends on anything if the data isn't broad enough. You need lots of different real world data to develop real world systems. That why people still actually TEST stuff after the SIMULATE it. Racing provides more data than street vehicles because Fred and Wilma don't have data logging systems sending information back to Hans and Franz at the factory.
8. Babelfish is wrong. As vehicles get faster and road and traffic conditions change racing products have more and more use in street vehicles. Not to mention the fact that the majority of racing is done with modified street vehicles.
9. No, I think you're the one turning it into a Rossi vs. The World thing because the only single files were Stoner in front, Pedrosa in 2nd, and Rossi in 3rd. The rest of the field was not single file. At least not any more so than any other season. You act like racing lines don't exist and that anyone can pass anyone else anywhere in a turn. Dude.
10. No you've got it backwards. Your "quote" says nothing about development of electronics. My information comes from engineers and Ducati department heads telling interviewers that the Desmo valvetrain is only realizing its full potential due to most recent advancements in engine management systems. Do I have to say this three times too?
11. Your pet phrase "development series" is a crock. Just because you don't want to call it racing anymore doesn't mean that it isn't. The only way it's ever going to be 100% rider is if everyone has exactly the same machine so just let it go.

All I have to say is, whatever.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (motojt @ Jan 12 2008, 02:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>No, I just don't enjoy arguing with people who change their points and/or twist their and others' words, so whatever is the best/only answer.

But in case your are curious:
1. You only agreed that rudimentary tc was fine after I had to explain 3 times why you can't disallow air/fuel per rpm. And to be frank, air-fuel per rpm is the same as air-fuel per wheel sensors (unless the chain breaks or there is a LOSS IN TRACTION), so it's not even that rudimentary.
2. You said the 800's lacked power. That was what I was referring to. Besides, do you also believe the 800's don't have more power than is usable? Modern 1000cc street bikes have more power than is usable so you're still wrong. Or do you think a GSX-R1000 also makes more power than an 800cc MotoGP racer?
:
:

I don't think I have changed my points or twisted your words.
1. Below is the first part of my reply to the very first time you explained why...
2. When I said the 800's lacked power I did use quotes to show that I only meant it in relation to the 990s (see below)

As I said, you think I am a Rossi fanboy and that you know much more about the subject than Babelfish and myself, and that you believe you have the right to give your opinions in rude and sarcastic manner, but I don't have the right to give any opinions.

So I finally agree with you on one thing - we're never going to get anywhere with this.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yamaka46 @ Jan 11 2008, 04:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>You can call it what you like, a control ECU could be made to only allow certain outputs, and if this is not one of them...
As far as rudimentary TC goes (such as was implemented on the early 990s) I don't think this would be too much of an issue. It's only now that the capacity has dropped to 800cc and the electronics have become so much more sophisticated that TC is affecting the spectacle. With the 990's there was more power available than was useable, even with the help of TC to put that power down. With the 800s this is not the case and so the "lack" of power, coupled with the TC is now determining the lines which work. This, in turn, leads to more single file "races" which are no fun to watch. Overtaking was always one of the main reasons that many people switched to watching motogp from F1.

I didn't say you were a fanboy I said you were biased. There's a difference.
Let me ask you a hypothetical question and try your best to give an honest answer. Let's pretend Rossi had won the championship this year. He's once again world champion as of 2007. At the end of the season Casey Stoner, who took second place in the championship standings, tells interviewers, "...I am really disappointed with how traction control has dumbed down racing. It's just not fun anymore. If it were banned I don't believe Valentino would've won his title back. I really think Dorna should consider switching to a control ECU." In rebuttal Rossi states, "Traction control has been a factor in MotoGP even since the 990cc and little bit since GP 500's. It would not be fair to the manufacturers to force them to use the control ECU."
If this had happened, would you still be arguing for control ECU's? Honestly.

P.S: I took a stab at Rossi's slightly broken English.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (motojt @ Jan 13 2008, 03:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I didn't say you were a fanboy I said you were biased. There's a difference.
Let me ask you a hypothetical question and try your best to give an honest answer. Let's pretend Rossi had won the championship this year. He's once again world champion as of 2007. At the end of the season Casey Stoner, who took second place in the championship standings, tells interviewers, "...I am really disappointed with how traction control has dumbed down racing. It's just not fun anymore. If it were banned I don't believe Valentino would've won his title back. I really think Dorna should consider switching to a control ECU." In rebuttal Rossi states, "Traction control has been a factor in MotoGP even since the 990cc and little bit since GP 500's. It would not be fair to the manufacturers to force them to use the control ECU."
If this had happened, would you still be arguing for control ECU's? Honestly.

P.S: I took a stab at Rossi's slightly broken English.
Yes, I would still be arguing for a control ECU.

Before Rossi I followed Doohan, before him Schwantz. These have just been my favourite riders of each era and each of them has their own flamboyant style. Among the current/recent riders I also enjoy watching for their flamboyance are McCoy, Elias and Stoner.

I have not intended to imply that the level of TC last year always produced boring races, but I do think that 800cc + TC rules are starting to have a serious effect which was not as clear last year (when you may recall, my favourite rider didn't win either). If nothing is done then I think that within a year or two all the manufacturers will have such good electronic packages that overtaking, and hence the spectacle, will be seriously reduced. In an ideal world I'd go back to the 990s and the rules from 2006, but sadly I'm pretty convinced that will never happen.

If Rossi were to state "Traction control has been a factor in MotoGP even since the 990cc and little bit since GP 500's. It would not be fair to the manufacturers to force them to use the control ECU." then I would disagree with him. I don't follow him for his personality or believe that because he has said something he is automatically right.

My reply to him (if I had the power to decide the rules ) would be that the control ECU would allow the type of level of TC which existed with the early 990s, so he should be fairly happy. To his second point I would answer that I do not believe that companies like MM have the right to anything in Motogp, it's about bike manufacturers and riders and so he should take his complaints about not being able to win without complex TC to Yamaha and possibly even consider whether he is in the right game anymore.

I do actually have a reasonable understanding about TC and am arrogant enough to disagree with even my favourite rider if I think he is talking bollocks.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumkie @ Jan 8 2008, 07:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>...........................

I just had a thought: Is it possible that giving Rossi the Bstones this year was just a quick fix and they intend to go to a single tire in the near future to go along with some electronics restrictions?
......................

Yes - I agree the direction is single tyre and control ECU.
MotoGP is following F1. These are the two top racing series where riders/drivers and manufacturers compete at the highest level. Tyres and electronics have the potential to count more than engines, frames and riding skills, so they have to be kept in check to keep the competition and the freedom to develop in the right (most relevant) technological areas.
TC is a good thing for safety, but it is being developed for production bikes in WSB already... Actually WSB is the leader in TC and Ducati imported into MotoGP the traction control they had developed there, to compete with a twin against the 4-cylinders.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (motojt @ Jan 13 2008, 04:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>I didn't say you were a fanboy I said you were biased. There's a difference.
Let me ask you a hypothetical question and try your best to give an honest answer. Let's pretend Rossi had won the championship this year. He's once again world champion as of 2007. At the end of the season Casey Stoner, who took second place in the championship standings, tells interviewers, "...I am really disappointed with how traction control has dumbed down racing. It's just not fun anymore. If it were banned I don't believe Valentino would've won his title back. I really think Dorna should consider switching to a control ECU." In rebuttal Rossi states, "Traction control has been a factor in MotoGP even since the 990cc and little bit since GP 500's. It would not be fair to the manufacturers to force them to use the control ECU."
If this had happened, would you still be arguing for control ECU's? Honestly.

P.S: I took a stab at Rossi's slightly broken English.

Nice twist
It is different though (in TV audiences' perception, not in reality) when it is the established champion who suddenly does not win much, while someone who previously won little suddenly dominates. Such a change (again in ordinary spectators' perception, not in reality!) can more easily be attributed to other factors like TC, tyres, different rules etc. than the opposite case.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J4rn0 @ Jan 13 2008, 08:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}><div class='quotemain'>Nice twist
It is different though (in TV audiences' perception, not in reality) when it is the established champion who suddenly does not win much, while someone who previously won little suddenly dominates. Such a change (again in ordinary spectators' perception, not in reality!) can more easily be attributed to other factors like TC, tyres, different rules etc. than the opposite case.


I think its obvious to any fan that there were very few last lap battles... I'm a Rossi fan but if he didn't win but we had fantastic racing i would really have enjoyed it.