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Honda: no spec ECU from 2014

cliché guevara said:
and we thought crt was a bad idea. welcome to the official 2 tier system!

http://motomatters.c...s (MotoMatters)



wish they had reduced it to 15-16l so that we could have gotten rid of the msma as a whole
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There already is a 2 tier system in place. In fact, this just means the non-msma entries will get more of a fighting chance against manufacturers. I actually consider this a good solution. Let the companies that want to develop technology do so, and give the companies that cannot or do not wish to engage in a technological competition with factories a chance to race on their own terms. MSMA companies can still sell their racing to their boards, the fans that care about motorsport as a technological competition don't get shut out, the fans that want less tech and more close racing get catered for.



In fact, it's something a suggested a whole while back, going to look for that post.



Found it http://www.powerslide.net/forum/ind...ading-for-a-series-called-moto-1/#entry302614
 
good points,but i was hoping for a ban of tc/anti wheelie etc. from 2014 onwards.

this just prolongs the whole process,but we'll see.hope fuel capacity for manufacturers who choose to use rider aides will be dropped further in the near future
 
20L and 5 engines wont get BMW and Suzuki into the series, and it spells the death of Ducati. Just maintains the status quo of Honda Yamaha dominance, actually freezes it so it cant change. Worst of all worlds. I would prefer no factory bikes at all, make the rule that factory's cannot participate directly, only sell bikes to the race teams. Development happens only in preseason, then the engines are set with no giving Marquez special parts throughout the season, he gets the same as Bradl, and its then up to the teams not the factory to tune and get the best out of them. I said it before 24 satelight spec bikes would be great to watch. Basically what Colin Edwards suggested, but have everyone on one year old prototypes, no factory bikes, no CRT's and no tiers.
 
The rules will probably change again before 2014. It's all going to come down to strategy and what the CRT bikes performance will be by 2014. They've made impressive gains this year and with the combination of electronics and their own developments they may be a serious enough threat for the MSMA to reconsider their position. Sat teams may not want to renew their contracts with the factories if the cheaper CRT bikes are on the same level. I would hate to lose a championship to the engine rule after pouring millions of dollars into a racing program, 5 engines isn't many at all.
 
hawkdriver said:
The rules will probably change again before 2014. It's all going to come down to strategy and what the CRT bikes performance will be by 2014. They've made impressive gains this year and with the combination of electronics and their own developments they may be a serious enough threat for the MSMA to reconsider their position. Sat teams may not want to renew their contracts with the factories if the cheaper CRT bikes are on the same level. I would hate to lose a championship to the engine rule after pouring millions of dollars into a racing program, 5 engines isn't many at all.
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I hope so. You say CRT has made impressive gains but in reality I think it should be Aprilia has made impressive gains and is getting close to surpassing Ducati. But that really is no great surprise, Aprilia was the dominant force in 250cc gp racing. At some point if they get too close the others will cry foul and force Aprilia into the 20L 5 engine rule.



Meanwhile the gap from Ducati to Honda/Yamaha is only getting wider. And 20 litres, 5 engines is a massive barrier to entry for others like BMW and Suzuki, so the two factory teams will sit on their throwns for years to come before a CRT gets even remotely close. Terrible situation really. I wonder if Ezy traded all his cards in on Rossi and now we are forced to live with this ...., corrupted version of rules which probably suits him just fine, Rossi vs Marquez being all he really wanted anyway.
 
birdman said:
I said it before 24 satelight spec bikes would be great to watch. Basically what Colin Edwards suggested, but have everyone on one year old prototypes, no factory bikes, no CRT's and no tiers.
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How do you get one year old prototypes without factory bikes?
 
Mick D said:
How do you get one year old prototypes without factory bikes?
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Allow factory participation in pre season testing only. They can fiddle away with the precious electronics and low fuel engines to their hearts content for 5 months of boring prototype development. All the stuff they say is so important to them.



Then come first race, hand the bikes over to the race teams and tell the factories to .... off. The season proper is our time to enjoy the racing.



Look at teams Gresini, LCR and Tech 3 for example. They finish the year on about the same spec they started, pretty much a one year old prototype, developed to the point its handed over for a capped sum of money, then the factory says good luck see you later. And the racing between these teams is great. We know they are on pretty much the same thing. Thats the concept, don't allow the factory to play God with who gets what, that only corrupts the competition. Bradl should race the same spec as Marquez. Let me see who is really the best.
 
I believe in compromise and choice. Do you?



Also, I don't see any barriers to entry for factories like BMW. Which ones do you guys see?
 
True enough. As barriers.

But the propeller brand had a go (with Cadalora and McWilliams? ) and were uncompetitive to the point of not getting past a test bike. Lot of $$ for failure. Failure that makes Ducati look like an M1...
 
Dr No said:
True enough. As barriers.

But the propeller brand had a go (with Cadalora and McWilliams? ) and were uncompetitive to the point of not getting past a test bike. Lot of $$ for failure. Failure that makes Ducati look like an M1...
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Where do they reportedly suffer most right now? The ecu. What would these new measures take out of the equation? Exactly.



Despite all the negative framing, this offers an oppurtunity for marques like bmw.
 
stiefel said:
I believe in compromise and choice. Do you?



Also, I don't see any barriers to entry for factories like BMW. Which ones do you guys see?
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6 years of developing bike engines/electronics with arcane technologies required for a fuel economy formula.
 
birdman said:
20L and 5 engines wont get BMW and Suzuki into the series, and it spells the death of Ducati.
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[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif][background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]MSMA manufacturers in their first season of participation 9 engines, teams taking the spec ECU, 24L. Might be more attractive than you think.[/background][/font]
 
michaelm said:
6 years of developing bike engines/electronics with arcane technologies required for a fuel economy formula.
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I think you missed my point. They don't have to be subject to the msma fuel restrictions if they choose not to.
 
stiefel said:
I think you missed my point. They don't have to be subject to the msma fuel restrictions if they choose not to.
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Yes sure, they can start with 24 litres and the spec ecu, I hadn't read that part of the new regulations. And if they start beating honda and yamaha then the msma can go to 24 litres and a spec ecu and we possibly have a good uniform racing formula. Whether BMW et al will be prepared to trust that dorna won't change the regulations again becomes the barrier I guess (suzuki say this is a barrier for them), but perhaps dorna have had some discussions with prospective future entrants to the class.



If BMW and aprilia etc don't join or re-join we possibly end up with a series where the msma factory bikes still win but the one-line nature of their bikes is even more pronounced.



(EDIT not sure how the formula works, there is some suggestion the 24 litre/9 engines applies for only one year, which is not long enough imo to catch up honda's and yamaha's technology lead).
 
The new rules are a bit confusing, but from what I can gather, the CRT concept is going away. The bikes will still be legal, but the GPC classification and the claiming rules will go away. Any team, factory or privateer, will be allowed to run 24L and 12 engines if they accept the spec ECU.



It looks as thought Dorna and the MSMA have decided they cannot reach an agreement so they will run two different versions of MotoGP at the same time. The paddock is peaceful for the time being, but these rules appear to set the table for a showdown between the MSMA and Dorna. The MSMA will try to run their fuel-limited version of MotoGP by leasing engines and satellite bikes. Dorna will probably be working tirelessly to rally manufacturer support for the 24L spec-ECU tier. After they have sufficient support, Dorna will send Honda and Yamaha packing.



Personally, I don't think this is a good compromise. Dorna's vision for the sport would be entertaining as hell, and I'd certainly watch, but I am not eager to kick prototype innovation to the curb. MotoGP is basically the last 'pure' motorsport on the planet b/c it has not strict horsepower controls, few spec parts rules, and no performance balancing. But the pressure is mounting on MotoGP to adopt the entertainment format. Rather than create an innovative formula that addresses the longstanding problems with racing (violent boom-bust cycles, cost overrun, performance overrun, etc), the MSMA are ignoring the market forces and doubling down on fuel-limitations.
 
birdman said:
I hope so. You say CRT has made impressive gains but in reality I think it should be Aprilia has made impressive gains and is getting close to surpassing Ducati. But that really is no great surprise, Aprilia was the dominant force in 250cc gp racing. At some point if they get too close the others will cry foul and force Aprilia into the 20L 5 engine rule.



Meanwhile the gap from Ducati to Honda/Yamaha is only getting wider. And 20 litres, 5 engines is a massive barrier to entry for others like BMW and Suzuki, so the two factory teams will sit on their throwns for years to come before a CRT gets even remotely close. Terrible situation really. I wonder if Ezy traded all his cards in on Rossi and now we are forced to live with this ...., corrupted version of rules which probably suits him just fine, Rossi vs Marquez being all he really wanted anyway.
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Yeah mostly just the Aprilia but next year we may see more of them on the grid and I'm hoping 20liters of fuel will be rough for Honda and Yamaha, we've already seen them running out of fuel during races and on the cool down lap. Next year may be the last time we see the lap times we are seeing now, but I don't think that's going to be a big deal, I've never seen anyone complain about lap times while watching a good race.
 
mylexicon said:
The new rules are a bit confusing, but from what I can gather, the CRT concept is going away. The bikes will still be legal, but the GPC classification and the claiming rules will go away. Any team, factory or privateer, will be allowed to run 24L and 12 engines if they accept the spec ECU.



It looks as thought Dorna and the MSMA have decided they cannot reach an agreement so they will run two different versions of MotoGP at the same time. The paddock is peaceful for the time being, but these rules appear to set the table for a showdown between the MSMA and Dorna. The MSMA will try to run their fuel-limited version of MotoGP by leasing engines and satellite bikes. Dorna will probably be working tirelessly to rally manufacturer support for the 24L spec-ECU tier. After they have sufficient support, Dorna will send Honda and Yamaha packing.



Personally, I don't think this is a good compromise. Dorna's vision for the sport would be entertaining as hell, and I'd certainly watch, but I am not eager to kick prototype innovation to the curb. MotoGP is basically the last 'pure' motorsport on the planet b/c it has not strict horsepower controls, few spec parts rules, and no performance balancing. But the pressure is mounting on MotoGP to adopt the entertainment format. Rather than create an innovative formula that addresses the longstanding problems with racing (violent boom-bust cycles, cost overrun, performance overrun, etc), the MSMA are ignoring the market forces and doubling down on fuel-limitations.
Click to expand...
I hope they clear that up, I've interpreted it the same way you have that any team that uses the series spec electronics will fall under the 24L and 12 engine rule.
 

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